I just got my first digital camera (E-20) Friday. I am using the Programmed mode just to get started. All my pictures seem to have a haze or softness to them. The sharpeness and contrast are set to normal. I've tried outside, inside, zoom, close-up, low light, bright light, with and without the hood, etc. They all seem to exhibit the same effect, just not crisp and clear, but not blurred as in movement. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
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E-20 Newbie Hazy Images
- Thread starter Kobie
- Start date
Rembvrijn
Senior Member
Hey Kobie - welcome.
The best photo host is Pbase. http://www.pbase.com The dont MAKE you pay any money, but just to make sure they dont die out, make a little $5 donation. Not as much as the service is worth, but it's better than nothing.
You can then upload your images there and then either link to them or embed them in your posts.
I have some hazy pictures, but they were taken at a hazy time of day. I'm curious to see yours.
GageFX
E-10, LiPo, FL-40, Stroboframe 120 QF, Lumiquest Softbox, Speedotron Force 10s, AlienBees, HP P1100, Epson 777, Epson 1280
The best photo host is Pbase. http://www.pbase.com The dont MAKE you pay any money, but just to make sure they dont die out, make a little $5 donation. Not as much as the service is worth, but it's better than nothing.
You can then upload your images there and then either link to them or embed them in your posts.
I have some hazy pictures, but they were taken at a hazy time of day. I'm curious to see yours.
GageFX
--
E-10, LiPo, FL-40, Stroboframe 120 QF, Lumiquest Softbox, Speedotron Force 10s, AlienBees, HP P1100, Epson 777, Epson 1280
Thanks for the directions to the pbase site. All comments would be greatly appreciated. This was done in the Programmed mode. I know the E-20 is not supposed to be a point and shoot camera, but I just wondered how far off the programmed mode would be?
I'm not sure how to make this a link:
http://www.pbase.com/kobie/e20_newbie_pics
I'm not sure how to make this a link:
http://www.pbase.com/kobie/e20_newbie_pics
David Ellsworth
Leading Member
Hmm, I don't see anything wrong with these pics at all! They look sharp to me.
In fact, the poodle one looks like it's probably a great photo, but you compressed it before uploading. Why did you do it for that pic, but not the others? I'd like to see the original.
In fact, the poodle one looks like it's probably a great photo, but you compressed it before uploading. Why did you do it for that pic, but not the others? I'd like to see the original.
Thanks, maybe it is my monitor and not the camera? I had compressed the poodle pic to email it. I didn't realize that I put that one on the site. I'll try to delete it and put the other one up. I'm still learning how to set up the gallery, but it is a great site.
Rembvrijn
Senior Member
(I did read the next two posts)
The look fine to me too. I didnt even open up the first one but the other two just needed minor adjustments.
The ran iCorrect on the house (half of the house) and simple levels on the poodle. The house improved a little but the poodle improved a TON. I just clipped the ends of the histogram.
(there's a diagonal through the images - original on top, repair on bottom)
What you have experienced is the "flatness" of the E-10 images. Many other cameras overprocess their images in the camera given you more "snap" right out of the camera. The problem is this destroys information. The E-10 doesnt over process in order to preserve both it's exceptional dynamic range and color gamut. I would even suggest to turn your "sharpening" all the way down as well as your "contrast" in the camera in order to preserve the most information. Fixing the images took a total of 1 minute for both. selecting half of each image took more time than the corrections.
And if you are worried that you dont have the time to fix all the photos you take - a small percentage deserve to even be LOOKED at, let alone altered and printed. (That's not YOUR'S, that's EVERYONE'S)
GageFX
E-10, LiPo, FL-40, Stroboframe 120 QF, Lumiquest Softbox, Speedotron Force 10s, AlienBees, HP P1100, Epson 777, Epson 1280
The look fine to me too. I didnt even open up the first one but the other two just needed minor adjustments.
The ran iCorrect on the house (half of the house) and simple levels on the poodle. The house improved a little but the poodle improved a TON. I just clipped the ends of the histogram.
(there's a diagonal through the images - original on top, repair on bottom)
What you have experienced is the "flatness" of the E-10 images. Many other cameras overprocess their images in the camera given you more "snap" right out of the camera. The problem is this destroys information. The E-10 doesnt over process in order to preserve both it's exceptional dynamic range and color gamut. I would even suggest to turn your "sharpening" all the way down as well as your "contrast" in the camera in order to preserve the most information. Fixing the images took a total of 1 minute for both. selecting half of each image took more time than the corrections.
And if you are worried that you dont have the time to fix all the photos you take - a small percentage deserve to even be LOOKED at, let alone altered and printed. (That's not YOUR'S, that's EVERYONE'S)
GageFX
--
E-10, LiPo, FL-40, Stroboframe 120 QF, Lumiquest Softbox, Speedotron Force 10s, AlienBees, HP P1100, Epson 777, Epson 1280
--Kobie,
Congrat's on your purchase! You have a fantastic camera. This flatness that Gage is talking about was a hard thing for me to get over. After shooting for years with a 35 & 645 and getting sharp images pronto, I was about ready to go back to the other side. For the past couple of months I have spent countless hours working on Photoshop and it is starting to get fun. It's one of those things, the more you do the better you get. A few things I have learned:
1. If your eye is away from the viewfinder, make SURE to flip the little lever to close off the eyepiece....Yes, I learned the hard way, this will fog your your images uncorrectable.
2. I mostly shoot at normal sharpness & contrast, I know, alot of people use the low setting's and sometimes I do, but it seems when I do, it creates other problems. Not so much with the sharpness, but the contrast gives me fits! I think the low setting for contrast is too low, of course this is a personal option.
3. Do pixel mapping often
4. Lighting is of upmost importance! The more presise your lighting, the less time to spend in photoshop. When photographing people, I found it's always best to do a manuel white balence for the best skin tones (I use the backside of a Kodak gray card, which is white and has 90% reflectance) once I forgot it and used a white piece of paper and all the images had a green cast!
The main thing now, is to take lot's of shot's and learn photoshop or some other image program. Photoshop 7 is awesom!
Thanks to Gage for his input, I have learned alot from him.
Hey Gage, can you give some more detailed info on what you did with the poodle? Just level's??
Have Fun!!!
Carlton
Rembvrijn
Senior Member
It's really simple. (I always have to go into a long rant evn when something requires but a simple answer. Sorry.)
I take issue (with a lot of things) with people who spend an OBVIOUSLY long amount of time in photoshop and then say "this only took me 5 minutes". Really? You completely removed a subject from a complicated background, painted a new background and then composited the two in 5 minutes? Didn't happen. I think people get lost in Photoshop sometimes, playing around, and they want to FEEL or THINK they didnt spend as long as they did. They can feel and think all they want, they still spend WAY longer than 5 minutes. That said, it took me about a minute to do the two images - not including opening them. That took an additional 5 seconds.
Open the poodle in Photoshop (I right clicked on the image in Pbase and selected "copy". I then clicked on my PS window, typed CTRL-N for New Document. It automatically makes the size of the document the same as whatever you have saved to the clipboard. (I know you know how to open a document, but there might be a shortcut in here for someone else. I hit enter and then CTRL-V to paste the poodle image in my new document.
I used the (WOW. I didnt even check for a full size. I just opened it back up in Pbase and BAM!) Polygonal Lasso Tool to select half the image on diagonal. Again, none of this is important and it doesnt even answer your question yet. I'm getting there.
I hit CTRL-L to bring up the levels. I then clip the ends. When we shoot in camera, we dont want to blow the highlights or drown the shadows. If the histogram hits the sides then we have lost information. That's bad. Once we get into photoshop, though, we can select how much we blow if anything. I will blow A LITTLE of the dog's fur.
Here we go.
Here is the unaltered Levels Histogram
I "clip" the white end. If you hold ALT while you drag the arrow it will show you what is being "blown out". As you can see from the image, just a little bit of the fur at his (her?) hind quarters is being blown. Acceptable loss.
Next I "clip" the black side. Again, hold ALT to see what you are losing. We lost a bit of the nose, part of the eyes and the legs to a chair (?). The eyes and nose are already black so that's a good adjustment. I couldnt give a rip about the chair - so we are good.
This last picture is how the histogram looks just before you click "OK". As you can see, we clipped quite a bit but we didnt really lose anything. We got better contrast and color rendition though.
This REALLY took about 20 SECONDS...MAYBE. I dont really care to time myslef as this lesson took about 30 times longer than correcting those two images. I DO NOT suggest "Auto Levels". I dont think I've ever gotten a good result from that. If you want auto, I suggest "iCorrect Pro", but it is expensive and it really almost takes longer to open it and click okay than it does to make this levels adjustment.
Hope I've helped.
GageFX
E-10, LiPo, FL-40, Stroboframe 120 QF, Lumiquest Softbox, Speedotron Force 10s, AlienBees, HP P1100, Epson 777, Epson 1280
I take issue (with a lot of things) with people who spend an OBVIOUSLY long amount of time in photoshop and then say "this only took me 5 minutes". Really? You completely removed a subject from a complicated background, painted a new background and then composited the two in 5 minutes? Didn't happen. I think people get lost in Photoshop sometimes, playing around, and they want to FEEL or THINK they didnt spend as long as they did. They can feel and think all they want, they still spend WAY longer than 5 minutes. That said, it took me about a minute to do the two images - not including opening them. That took an additional 5 seconds.
Open the poodle in Photoshop (I right clicked on the image in Pbase and selected "copy". I then clicked on my PS window, typed CTRL-N for New Document. It automatically makes the size of the document the same as whatever you have saved to the clipboard. (I know you know how to open a document, but there might be a shortcut in here for someone else. I hit enter and then CTRL-V to paste the poodle image in my new document.
I used the (WOW. I didnt even check for a full size. I just opened it back up in Pbase and BAM!) Polygonal Lasso Tool to select half the image on diagonal. Again, none of this is important and it doesnt even answer your question yet. I'm getting there.
I hit CTRL-L to bring up the levels. I then clip the ends. When we shoot in camera, we dont want to blow the highlights or drown the shadows. If the histogram hits the sides then we have lost information. That's bad. Once we get into photoshop, though, we can select how much we blow if anything. I will blow A LITTLE of the dog's fur.
Here we go.
Here is the unaltered Levels Histogram
I "clip" the white end. If you hold ALT while you drag the arrow it will show you what is being "blown out". As you can see from the image, just a little bit of the fur at his (her?) hind quarters is being blown. Acceptable loss.
Next I "clip" the black side. Again, hold ALT to see what you are losing. We lost a bit of the nose, part of the eyes and the legs to a chair (?). The eyes and nose are already black so that's a good adjustment. I couldnt give a rip about the chair - so we are good.
This last picture is how the histogram looks just before you click "OK". As you can see, we clipped quite a bit but we didnt really lose anything. We got better contrast and color rendition though.
This REALLY took about 20 SECONDS...MAYBE. I dont really care to time myslef as this lesson took about 30 times longer than correcting those two images. I DO NOT suggest "Auto Levels". I dont think I've ever gotten a good result from that. If you want auto, I suggest "iCorrect Pro", but it is expensive and it really almost takes longer to open it and click okay than it does to make this levels adjustment.
Hope I've helped.
GageFX
--
E-10, LiPo, FL-40, Stroboframe 120 QF, Lumiquest Softbox, Speedotron Force 10s, AlienBees, HP P1100, Epson 777, Epson 1280
ShootingStar66329
Well-known member
Cripes Gage, a photographer and now a teacher? I'd tell you to give up your day job, but you're too good at it.
Excellent levels tutorial. I knew all of it except about holding down the Alt key. I'm itchin' to get home and try it.
Anyway, I've just got a couple of questions:
1. You use a Mac? If not, nice skin. I don't think you do, as I recall some scathing remarks you have made about Macs. Using WindowBlinds then?
2. I was playing around with Elements, and noticed that they recommend using an adjustment layer for Levels. I know you save your images in PSD format (preserving levels). Do you see any advantage in using a separate adjustment layer?
3. I find that I use the levels dialog for colour correction as well. Instead of using the RGB combined channel, I switch to the individual colours and move the middle slider. I'm sure you know this stuff, but like you, I'm putting it in for others who might not know.
Thanks again for the time and effort put into the tutorial. If you don't mind, there are some of my friends I have been trying to explain Levels to, and I think I'll direct them to your post.
Hope things are looking up for ya, bud.
-SS
Excellent levels tutorial. I knew all of it except about holding down the Alt key. I'm itchin' to get home and try it.
Anyway, I've just got a couple of questions:
1. You use a Mac? If not, nice skin. I don't think you do, as I recall some scathing remarks you have made about Macs. Using WindowBlinds then?
2. I was playing around with Elements, and noticed that they recommend using an adjustment layer for Levels. I know you save your images in PSD format (preserving levels). Do you see any advantage in using a separate adjustment layer?
3. I find that I use the levels dialog for colour correction as well. Instead of using the RGB combined channel, I switch to the individual colours and move the middle slider. I'm sure you know this stuff, but like you, I'm putting it in for others who might not know.
Thanks again for the time and effort put into the tutorial. If you don't mind, there are some of my friends I have been trying to explain Levels to, and I think I'll direct them to your post.
Hope things are looking up for ya, bud.
-SS
You did more than explain! Graphics Too!... WOW!!! The only thing I have to figure out now is what Mac uses for ALT, but to bed for now....too many hours....... 0))
Thanks a million!
Carlton
0))
Thanks a million!
Carlton
Rembvrijn
Senior Member
I try to mix some useful knowledge in with my scathing flames.
uh... ::
::I'm not too keen on the Mac, but they sure are purdy lil creatures. I used a prog called "Style XP" to apply the skin. It's pretty good looking. I am MUCH more anti-Mac PEOPLE than I am anti MAC. I have just heard SO MANY bad "reasons" and "proofs" that Macs are better. If it wasnt for the limited software, expense, hit in performance and lack of OS software support I would switch to Mac in a minuet. (intentional)
I guess.... maybe... When I change levels (to an image that matters) I always duplicate the layer and keep an unaltered layer on the bottom. I then change the levels of the new layer. I really haven't gotten into Levels Adj Layers becasue my method works and I dont want to try something else. Not a good reason, but it'll do. Since I'm not destroying anyhting with my layers adjustment the ADJ Layer doesnt really help too much... I think. I'm always open to new suggestions. It's just REALLY hard to convince me of something. Your argument BETTER be good if you want to.
Yeah....Here's the thing. I shoot IN CAMERA. I dont even WB all the time and I still get very good in camera shots. I NEVER have to CORRECT images with curves. The only times I use curves is if I'm applying an effect. I hear WAY to many people saying that you can shoot cr@p in camera because you can always fix it in Photoshop. I dont want to. Shoot it right. It takes just as much time to shoot it right as to shoot it wrong. If you CANT shoot it right, LEARN to. I dont fault anyone for not having the knowledge as long as they are willing to learn.
As much as many people here think I am a jerk, (and I AM), I am helping a TON of people by email. I dont say this to say what a great guy I am, I say it because there are people who take bad pictures, time after time, and never think there is anything to learn. There is a lot. I'm not the greatest, but I know some stuff. And I am ALWAYS ready to learn more.
Oh yeah, if I ever shoot something that does need a monir color correction, I run it through iCorrect Pro. It is so quick and so good. Imagine the Auto Levels and Auto Curves (dont know if that exists) but imagine they WORKED and gave a good result. That is iCorrect.
Cool. Glad it got some use. I posted a tutorial a few weeks ago that literally took about 2 hours to write and do and post and NO ONE responded to it. Kinda bugged me. As long a SOMEONE got something from this one
Thanks. No. Things are still pretty grim. Probably accounts for my lack of tolerance lately. Some pretty tough decisions in life. Wish I would just RTFM. It's gotta be in there somewhere. I think I lost it though.
GageFX
--
E-10, LiPo, FL-40, Stroboframe 120 QF, Lumiquest Softbox, Speedotron Force 10s, AlienBees, HP P1100, Epson 777, Epson 1280
David Ellsworth
Leading Member
Yikes!! I've been using Photoshop for years and I never knew that trick... wow, it works for shadows too! That saves me a LOT of time... I used to drag the gamma to each extreme to see what I was blowing out...
Thanks!
ShootingStar66329
Well-known member
No arguments here. I think it's the same thing - it has the same effect (ie duplicating the layer and adusting the levels, and creating an adjustment layer)
Agreed. We've discussed this one. Take the best shot you can at the time. I'd rather spend the time (if it took any extra) behind the camera than behind my pooter. But I'm not that experienced yet, and there are certainly shots where I can't get the flash/ambient light ratio right (just thinking of a recent example).
Huh? Must have missed it. I'd better do a search - but you're so prolific, it'll take me ages! Rest assured, my friend, your advice is useful and heeded, even if no-one responds!
I hear ya. It's a learn-on-the-job thing. Even if there was a manual, and even if you read it, there'd be bits you'd forget. And there's no way you're going to get a decent index into it.
Anyway, you know where you friends are.
-SS
Rembvrijn
Senior Member
Actually, that was the only way I could do the screen capture. I didnt know the gamma part and wasnt sure how I was going to display the visual. Good thing it was intuitive. I coulda been at it for hours!
(When you hold ALT and press "Prt Scrn" it only captures the active window - not the whole screen. If I pushed the button holding ALT - witha pen in my mouth - I would just get a capture of the levels box and not what I was trying to show. Frustrating for 8 seconds.)
GageFX
E-10, LiPo, FL-40, Stroboframe 120 QF, Lumiquest Softbox, Speedotron Force 10s, AlienBees, HP P1100, Epson 777, Epson 1280
(When you hold ALT and press "Prt Scrn" it only captures the active window - not the whole screen. If I pushed the button holding ALT - witha pen in my mouth - I would just get a capture of the levels box and not what I was trying to show. Frustrating for 8 seconds.)
GageFX
--
E-10, LiPo, FL-40, Stroboframe 120 QF, Lumiquest Softbox, Speedotron Force 10s, AlienBees, HP P1100, Epson 777, Epson 1280
Jim Attfield
Senior Member
... star!
That ALT+Print Screen will be so useful, I've been using computers for many years, that's a new one on me.
You have enriched my life a little today, thank you! I hope I may be able to do the same for you some day.
Jim
That ALT+Print Screen will be so useful, I've been using computers for many years, that's a new one on me.
You have enriched my life a little today, thank you! I hope I may be able to do the same for you some day.
Jim
--- SNIP! ---
I did finally have to quit and get some sleep. I just logged on and I'm totally amazed at all the responses I have gotten to my request for help. I REALLY appreciate all the effort you put into your responses, especially the one from gagefx!
Is there a shortcut method to print all these posts? I want to take the time to really study them.
This is so great that there are so many enthusiasts willing to share their knowledge. Yes, I did go from a 35mm to digital and I was used to crystal clear pics. I love digital though. I think it is great to experiment and that gets very expensive with film. I think the E-20 is great and the menus seem very easy so far. I ordered the 1.45 zoom and the macro yesterday. I already have the wide-angle. I don't want the lens that looks like a bazooka. I don't think my arm could support it, even with the additional bracket.
I know it will take me time, but with all your help, it will shorten the learning curve. I do have photoshop 7.0 and I bought the Adobe Photoshop 7.0 Classroom in a Book which I plan to go through.
Thanks again to all!!!
Is there a shortcut method to print all these posts? I want to take the time to really study them.
This is so great that there are so many enthusiasts willing to share their knowledge. Yes, I did go from a 35mm to digital and I was used to crystal clear pics. I love digital though. I think it is great to experiment and that gets very expensive with film. I think the E-20 is great and the menus seem very easy so far. I ordered the 1.45 zoom and the macro yesterday. I already have the wide-angle. I don't want the lens that looks like a bazooka. I don't think my arm could support it, even with the additional bracket.
I know it will take me time, but with all your help, it will shorten the learning curve. I do have photoshop 7.0 and I bought the Adobe Photoshop 7.0 Classroom in a Book which I plan to go through.
Thanks again to all!!!
Sunny Krpan
Forum Enthusiast
....and I thought I know PS...
All Best!
Sunny
----------
E-10, Vivitar 256, filters, tripod, few batteries and crazy cat
Have a Prayer! http://www.pbase.com/image/5706283
--
All Best!
Sunny
----------
E-10, Vivitar 256, filters, tripod, few batteries and crazy cat
Have a Prayer! http://www.pbase.com/image/5706283
Rembvrijn
Senior Member
Thank you.
If you figure out a quick way to print a thread, let me know. I've wanted to also but cant figure it out.
Classroom in a Book is really good. I have it for a few different programs - I never make it very far through a book before getting bored, but I know it's a good book.
GageFX
E-10, LiPo, FL-40, Stroboframe 120 QF, Lumiquest Softbox, Speedotron Force 10s, AlienBees, HP P1100, Epson 777, Epson 1280
If you figure out a quick way to print a thread, let me know. I've wanted to also but cant figure it out.
Classroom in a Book is really good. I have it for a few different programs - I never make it very far through a book before getting bored, but I know it's a good book.
GageFX
--
E-10, LiPo, FL-40, Stroboframe 120 QF, Lumiquest Softbox, Speedotron Force 10s, AlienBees, HP P1100, Epson 777, Epson 1280
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