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Beware the B&H refurbs

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KilgoreTrout

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I just sent my refurb D60 back to B&H...

I was one of the unlucky Dell deal misfits, but I did manage to cancel my order quickly, and without any difficulty. I noticed that B&H was selling refurbs last week and went for one. It came on Friday in a Canon refurb box with a broken seal, no warranty card, a broken LCD status panel (missing segments on the LCD display), dust under the RGB filter on the sensor, and long exposure noise problems that look just like these samples from videoman (here’s a link): http://www.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1019&message=3684992

So I called Canon repair this morning hoping to send the camera in and get it up to spec… No luck. They wouldn’t take it… They informed me that they have yet to send out a Canon factory refurbished D60, and the refurb I have must be through a separate company supplying B&H. This made me a bit worried, as I wasn’t sure what B&H would say about me returning the camera to the used department. Well, after some negotiating (which consisted of me reading my list of problems), they gave me an RMA and said they would take it back. They did offer to repair the camera, but I refused on the basis that I couldn’t see how they could get a replacement for the sensor (if that ended up being the problem).

Anyhoo, fool me once, my bad, fool me twice VENGEANCE IS MINE! Uh, excuse me… I do plan to order a NEW unit from B&H after my card is credited and I am sure this is behind me. I wanted to post this to warn people about the, um, slight misrepresentation on B&H’s part. If you decide to get a refurb from B&H, be sure to check it out thoroughly and quickly as they only give you 7 days to return digital equipment.

Kilgore Trout has spoken. Please go about your business.
 
Well that sounds more true to life. I was wondering about refurd D60s this soon. Just didnt make sense. But as far as B&H goes thats sounds real fishy. I would even have second thoughts of buying a new one?
 
Steven - B&H is pretty reputable so I there is really no cause for concern about ordering from them. I actually bought a refurb D30 from them last year with great results, 100-400mm L, 50mm 1.4, etc.
Steven said:
Well that sounds more true to life. I was wondering about refurd
D60s this soon. Just didnt make sense. But as far as B&H goes thats
sounds real fishy. I would even have second thoughts of buying a
new one?
Click to expand...
 
I have bought two refurbed lenses from B&H. One was good, one bad. You take a chance with a refurb purchase. However, as long as you check it out, B&H is first rate about taking the item back if it is defective. I have no hesitation about purchasing used or refurbished equipment from B&H who stands behind what they sell. This is more than I can say for many other organizations selling used and refurbished equipment.
killgoret said:
I just sent my refurb D60 back to B&H...
Click to expand...
--
William Castleman
http://www.wlcastleman.com
 
I've bought so called NEW items from them and received them in like conditions. NO flames please. It DOES happen on occasion. Oh well. Nobody's perfect eh. ;-)
Steven said:
Well that sounds more true to life. I was wondering about refurd
D60s this soon. Just didnt make sense. But as far as B&H goes thats
sounds real fishy. I would even have second thoughts of buying a
new one?
Click to expand...
 
killgoret wrote:
Well, after some negotiating (which consisted of me
KilgoreTrout said:
reading my list of problems), they gave me an RMA and said they
would take it back. They did offer to repair the camera, but I
refused on the basis that I couldn’t see how they could get a
replacement for the sensor (if that ended up being the problem).
Click to expand...
I've always had good experiences with B&H. I ordered two lenses from the same big batch of refurb stuff you are talking about, and they just arrived today. I'll have to be sure and check them out carefully, though superficially they look in good shape....

Mike B. in OKlahoma
 
I bought my EOS3 workhouse refurbished by Canon from B&H and this camera has not failed me once in 2 years even under the harshest conditions. It is perfect in every sense of the word. When it came in you could not tell is had been used before.

I also have a 100-400 Canon refurb that I also bought from B&H and have been very happy with it as well.

I am sure this was a mistake of some kind. My experience has been that B&H is the most reputable dealership around.

Everyone makes mistakes, you should really evaluate vendors on how they fix those mistakes.

-J
 
I would not buy a new D60 from them either, why give them the chance to "fool you again".

They are really starting to lose their credibility. What they did to you was clear and simple fraud. An item is considered used if it is shipped and then opened, whether they buy or return it. An item is refurbished only if it goes back to the factory and is cleaned, tested and recertified to factory specs and then repackaged.
I wonder how many other "refurb" D60's were fraudulently sold as such by B&H

Jack

--
http://www.pbase.com/joneill
 
Hi,

I got mine from B&H today, the box says,USED, but also refurbished, it is a box with Canon Eos D60 logo but not like a new D60 box, the Camera shows signs of use (tripod mount, some spots next to card door and I just checked the shutter curtains, there are some marks on them to) the rest of the body looks like new, I just took some pictures in room and every thing seems to be ok, I don't know how to check the problem with noise, may be turn off the light and take some pictures in room, any way, what do you guys think, since it is a clearly used camera and if it was not refurbished by canon should I return it or is it worth saving 400$.
Input would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Hamid
 
All we (apparently) know at this point is that CANON didn't do the refurbs.

If somebody ELSE was doing the refurb work, then it's still a refurb. And it would not be FRAUD to represent them as refurbs. Perhaps misleading, since people would probably assume that Canon did the refurb.

It's also quite possible that the Canon rep who said they weren't Canon refurbs was mistaken.

I suggest that if one REALLY wants to get to the bottom of this, they email B&H (Henry Posner) to find out.
Jack O'Neill said:
I would not buy a new D60 from them either, why give them the
chance to "fool you again".
They are really starting to lose their credibility. What they did
to you was clear and simple fraud. An item is considered used if it
is shipped and then opened, whether they buy or return it. An item
is refurbished only if it goes back to the factory and is cleaned,
tested and recertified to factory specs and then repackaged.
I wonder how many other "refurb" D60's were fraudulently sold as
such by B&H
Click to expand...
--
The Unofficial Photographer of The Wilkinsons
http://thewilkinsons.crosswinds.net
Photography -- just another word for compromise
 
then you should have gotten a brand new one. I assumed that you did pay full price $2200. If that's the case, I am not sure what's up with B&H. They tend to be pretty good but two complaints in couple days?

Thang.
AFG said:
Hi,
I got mine from B&H today, the box says,USED, but also refurbished,
it is a box with Canon Eos D60 logo but not like a new D60 box, the
Camera shows signs of use (tripod mount, some spots next to card
door and I just checked the shutter curtains, there are some marks
on them to) the rest of the body looks like new, I just took some
pictures in room and every thing seems to be ok, I don't know how
to check the problem with noise, may be turn off the light and take
some pictures in room, any way, what do you guys think, since it is
a clearly used camera and if it was not refurbished by canon should
I return it or is it worth saving 400$.
Input would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Hamid
Click to expand...
 
I bought a new one 2 weeks ago for 2199, and sold it back on ebay for the same price, loosing around 60$ because I thought it was a mistake and the camera is too expensive, and than I saw that refurb deal that icouldn't resist, a D60 for only 1799$, so I grabed it, and now again I think I made a mistake, but if I don't like it it shouldn't be defficult to sell it for the same or even higher price this time.
Hamid
 
Well I just got back from seeing Peter Gabriel at the Fleet center, and I’m in much better spirits at the moment…

I’d like to add that I really don’t think B&H is trying to take anyone, and it is possible that the Canon tech reps are just behind the loop a bit. Even if it is the case that Canon is refurbing these units, there should have been a warranty card in the box and the box should have been sealed. From the packaging it did look like it may be a legit Canon factory refurb, but it is hard to tell for sure (all of the stickers on the box looked laser printed)… The lack of warranty card made the Canon tech (and to be honest, me) wary. Add to that the fact that the B&H used dept. customer support was only willing to have me send the camera to B&H for service and you can see why this set off the bells and whistles in my consumer warning system. My main concern was that the camera would go back and forth for weeks without ever being fully repaired. At this point, I’m willing to spend the added money ($400) to get a sealed camera with a 1 year Canon factory warranty (the refurb had a 90 day warranty).
 
Hi Hamid,

I did a noise test by placing the lens cap on the camera, stopping down to f22 or greater and shooting a manual exposure of a minute or more. I was seeing lots of noise (thousands of hot pixels) with exposures of a second or more. They are very pronounced and look like red green and blue stars in a night sky. You might also take a few long exposure night shots to see if the hot pixels show up. Here’s a 1:1 crop example from an 8 second exposure at ISO 100.



I would also stop the camera all the way down and take a picture of a white wall. This will reveal any dust particles on the sensor or RGB filter. I was able to remove the multitude of dust specs (about 15) from my camera's RGB filter, but there were two that seemed to be on a different plane than the others and wouldn't budge. I am assuming they were lying between the sensor and the RGB filter and got there during the "refurb" (yes the quotes are for the sake of sarcasm).

Good luck with your refurb! Remember you can still return it to B&H if you do run into problems. I wouldn't think eBay would be a good choice, and it will just cause you headaches explaining the problems (again, if you run into any).

By the way, did you get a warranty card in your package and was it sealed?

-Kilgore
AFG said:
Hi,
I got mine from B&H today, the box says,USED, but also refurbished,
it is a box with Canon Eos D60 logo but not like a new D60 box, the
Camera shows signs of use (tripod mount, some spots next to card
door and I just checked the shutter curtains, there are some marks
on them to) the rest of the body looks like new, I just took some
pictures in room and every thing seems to be ok, I don't know how
to check the problem with noise, may be turn off the light and take
some pictures in room, any way, what do you guys think, since it is
a clearly used camera and if it was not refurbished by canon should
I return it or is it worth saving 400$.
Input would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Hamid
Click to expand...
 
killgoret said:
I’d like to add that I really don’t think B&H is trying to take
anyone, and it is possible that the Canon tech reps are just behind
the loop a bit.
Click to expand...
They MUST be a bit behind, because the manager of our Used Dept is prepared to fax a copy of our packing slip from Canon USA demonstrating that the cameras in question were delivered to B&H directly from Canon USA.
KilgoreTrout said:
Even if it is the case that Canon is refurbing
these units, there should have been a warranty card in the box
Click to expand...
WHY? Canon isn't warranting them for one minute. They're ONLY warranted by B&H Photo, as is all the merchandise purchased from our Used Dept.
KilgoreTrout said:
and the box should have been sealed.
Click to expand...
Well, I've only been at B&H for 8-1/2 years and this is the only retailer I ever worked for, but I've NEVER seen a "sealed" package in the Used Dept, and even so, shrink-wrap machines are a dime-a-dozen, so sealing a box means nothing.
KilgoreTrout said:
From the packaging it did look
like it may be a legit Canon factory refurb,
Click to expand...
Which is was, but in all honesty, how much experience do you have with Canon factory refurbs that you'd readily know?
KilgoreTrout said:
but it is hard to tell
for sure (all of the stickers on the box looked laser printed)…
Click to expand...
That's how we get 'em, except for the tags we puty on the boxes ourselves for inventory purposes.
KilgoreTrout said:
The lack of warranty card made the Canon tech (and to be honest, me)
wary.
Click to expand...
Needlessly. No warranty = no warranty card.
KilgoreTrout said:
Add to that the fact that the B&H used dept. customer support
was only willing to have me send the camera to B&H for service
Click to expand...
As opposed to WHAT other option? We warrant it, you send it to us.
KilgoreTrout said:
and
you can see why this set off the bells and whistles in my consumer
warning system.
Click to expand...
I must be missing something. I see no cause for "bells and whistles." I see a customer who unfortunately doesn't know the whole story, and one regrettably lead astray by a misinformed Canon employee.
KilgoreTrout said:
My main concern was that the camera would go back
and forth for weeks without ever being fully repaired. At this
point, I’m willing to spend the added money ($400) to get a sealed
camera with a 1 year Canon factory warranty (the refurb had a 90
day warranty).
Click to expand...
The ONLY way to do that (except the "sealed" part) is to bite the bullet and buy a new one. They're not sealed either, but they will have a Canon warranty.

--
Henry Posner
B&H Photo-Video, Inc.
 
Henry Posner's reasoned response to an upset and not-fully-informed customer is one reason I keep doing business with B&H.

B&H is really a class act.
Henry Posner/B&H Photo said:
killgoret said:
I’d like to add that I really don’t think B&H is trying to take
anyone, and it is possible that the Canon tech reps are just behind
the loop a bit.
Click to expand...
They MUST be a bit behind, because the manager of our Used Dept is
prepared to fax a copy of our packing slip from Canon USA
demonstrating that the cameras in question were delivered to B&H
directly from Canon USA.
Henry Posner/B&H Photo-Video Inc. said:
Even if it is the case that Canon is refurbing
these units, there should have been a warranty card in the box
Click to expand...
WHY? Canon isn't warranting them for one minute. They're ONLY
warranted by B&H Photo, as is all the merchandise purchased from
our Used Dept.
Henry Posner/B&H Photo-Video Inc. said:
and the box should have been sealed.
Click to expand...
Well, I've only been at B&H for 8-1/2 years and this is the only
retailer I ever worked for, but I've NEVER seen a "sealed" package
in the Used Dept, and even so, shrink-wrap machines are a
dime-a-dozen, so sealing a box means nothing.
Henry Posner/B&H Photo-Video Inc. said:
From the packaging it did look
like it may be a legit Canon factory refurb,
Click to expand...
Which is was, but in all honesty, how much experience do you have
with Canon factory refurbs that you'd readily know?
Henry Posner/B&H Photo-Video Inc. said:
but it is hard to tell
for sure (all of the stickers on the box looked laser printed)…
Click to expand...
That's how we get 'em, except for the tags we puty on the boxes
ourselves for inventory purposes.
Henry Posner/B&H Photo-Video Inc. said:
The lack of warranty card made the Canon tech (and to be honest, me)
wary.
Click to expand...
Needlessly. No warranty = no warranty card.
Henry Posner/B&H Photo-Video Inc. said:
Add to that the fact that the B&H used dept. customer support
was only willing to have me send the camera to B&H for service
Click to expand...
As opposed to WHAT other option? We warrant it, you send it to us.
Henry Posner/B&H Photo-Video Inc. said:
and
you can see why this set off the bells and whistles in my consumer
warning system.
Click to expand...
I must be missing something. I see no cause for "bells and
whistles." I see a customer who unfortunately doesn't know the
whole story, and one regrettably lead astray by a misinformed Canon
employee.
Henry Posner/B&H Photo-Video Inc. said:
My main concern was that the camera would go back
and forth for weeks without ever being fully repaired. At this
point, I’m willing to spend the added money ($400) to get a sealed
camera with a 1 year Canon factory warranty (the refurb had a 90
day warranty).
Click to expand...
The ONLY way to do that (except the "sealed" part) is to bite the
bullet and buy a new one. They're not sealed either, but they will
have a Canon warranty.

--
Henry Posner
B&H Photo-Video, Inc.
Click to expand...
--
William Castleman
http://www.wlcastleman.com
 
I had a similar experience buying a refurbished EOS3 in which the exposure compensation LED was not working. I sent it back and recieved another refurb in which part of the LCD panel wasn't working. I was very disappointed in this as B&H should have checked this out and even casual inspection would have revealed these flaws.

Unfortunately, when I posted about it I was flamed by B&H backers.

P.S.

I love B&H Photo and have had lots of great transactions with them so please do not bash me!
 
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