Arrested for taking photos of a Nuclear Power station...

Is it illegal to take photos of public buildings? No. Is it legal to detain five people for 2 days and raid their homes purely on suspicion based only on the fact that they were taking photos? According to British law - yes.
I wouldn't classify nuclear power plants as just more public buildings.
Is it heavy handed, stupid and paranoid to do so. Clearly, also yes!
Eye of the beholder. Maybe it was cautious and alert.
I am normally an advocate of lawful behaviour (I abhor theft and violence) and have no problem with cooperating with the Police or coming forward as a witness, or even their arresting someone on "suspicion" provided there are reasonable grounds to do so, (taking photographs is not reasonable grounds) but the law as it stands and the police actions as reported are nothing more than bullying on an official level.
Their definition of reasonable is obviously different than yours.
I would like to see the people detained apologised to and compensated for their ordeal and the police officers rebuked, demoted and retrained. I don't believe this is going to happen though, so I won't be holding my breath.
We don't know why they were released without charges. We also don't know what all was discovered in the searches of their homes. We also do not know if there is now an ongoing investigation of them and their circle of friends and associates. We shouldn't know these things because we knew then so would they.
Thank goodness I live in Australia!
It's a place I hope to visit before I get too old.
P.S. I wonder how that photograph of the nuclear power plant in the article was taken? Silly me, it was obviously taken by one of those paragons of virtue and lawfulness - a journalist. :)
That photograph is also not very useful if you're trying to identify a potential soft target. Neither is Google Earth etc. It's much more useful to know just how alert the locals are ...

--
Fiat Lux
 
Is it illegal to take photos of public buildings? No. Is it legal to detain five people for 2 days and raid their homes purely on suspicion based only on the fact that they were taking photos? According to British law - yes.
I wouldn't classify nuclear power plants as just more public buildings.
Is it heavy handed, stupid and paranoid to do so. Clearly, also yes!
Eye of the beholder. Maybe it was cautious and alert.
I am normally an advocate of lawful behaviour (I abhor theft and violence) and have no problem with cooperating with the Police or coming forward as a witness, or even their arresting someone on "suspicion" provided there are reasonable grounds to do so, (taking photographs is not reasonable grounds) but the law as it stands and the police actions as reported are nothing more than bullying on an official level.
Their definition of reasonable is obviously different than yours.
I would like to see the people detained apologised to and compensated for their ordeal and the police officers rebuked, demoted and retrained. I don't believe this is going to happen though, so I won't be holding my breath.
We don't know why they were released without charges. We also don't know what all was discovered in the searches of their homes. We also do not know if there is now an ongoing investigation of them and their circle of friends and associates. We shouldn't know these things because we knew then so would they.
Thank goodness I live in Australia!
It's a place I hope to visit before I get too old.
P.S. I wonder how that photograph of the nuclear power plant in the article was taken? Silly me, it was obviously taken by one of those paragons of virtue and lawfulness - a journalist. :)
That photograph is also not very useful if you're trying to identify a potential soft target. Neither is Google Earth etc. It's much more useful to know just how alert the locals are ...
They weren't photogaphing anything. That was made up by the press, along with cute pictures of well known terrorists thrown into the mix...

But if they WERE photographing anything, they were photoraphing them from beyond the barriers around the plant, which is to say, of absolutely no value or even interest to any potential terrorists.

Plain and simple they were arrested because they were Brown skinned. They were stopped at a road block, and the Cop noticed a camera in the car, which considering that they were tourists is not surprising.

And if they police truly suspected that they were terrorists, then the LAST thing they should have done is to arrest them. But Cops read the same stupid propaganda as the rest of us, and just couldn't help themselves. :(

Dave
 
Or perhaps it was a slow news day and the gang needed some excitement, so they dropped in on a guy with a big camera and long lenses?
They were tourists on their way to the Lake Country and took a wrong turn. They were stopped at a roadblock, and someone noticed that they had a camera. And they were Brown. So, they were arrested, North Country anti-terrorism squad was called, in. Scotland Yard was notified and raided their homes.

Oddly enough the British anti-terrorism law allows the arrest of anyone whom "is legitimately suspected of being a terrorist."

I guess being "brown" or owning a camera meets that bar. Of course the bar appears to be flat on the ground... :(

Dave
One wonders if the same would have happened whether they had a camera with them or not. Methinks it would!
 
5 Asian men taking photos of a Nuclear Power station, whats wrong with that?
  1. They were not taking pix, it turns out...just had a camera in the car
  2. Nothing wrong w/ taking pix of a NPS, if it was from a public space
Too right they were arrested
This arrest was wrong, for any number of reasons. It constituted "punishment" w/o due process. They were innocent of anything that deserved being put in prison for 2 days and interrogated. The authorities finally decided they were innocent, there was no evidence of any wrong-doing, and released them, w/o charges!

You are an who reacts instead of thinks...I'll let you guess the 5-letter word that describes you.

--
Charlie Davis
Nikon 5700, Sony R1, Nikon D50, Nikon D300
HomePage: http://www.1derful.info
"He had a photographic memory which was never developed."
You forgot to mention that they had their homes ransacked as well.

I just want to reiterate that in general terms I have no problem with the police acting on "suspicion". However, given that this is very much a judgement call, it speaks volumes about (and says very little for) the police when they call five people in a car with a camera "suspicious".

P.S. Maybe I'm slow but I still can't figure out the five letter word...
 
Or perhaps it was a slow news day and the gang needed some excitement, so they dropped in on a guy with a big camera and long lenses?
They were tourists on their way to the Lake Country and took a wrong turn. They were stopped at a roadblock, and someone noticed that they had a camera. And they were Brown. So, they were arrested, North Country anti-terrorism squad was called, in. Scotland Yard was notified and raided their homes.

Oddly enough the British anti-terrorism law allows the arrest of anyone whom "is legitimately suspected of being a terrorist."

I guess being "brown" or owning a camera meets that bar. Of course the bar appears to be flat on the ground... :(

Dave
One wonders if the same would have happened whether they had a camera with them or not. Methinks it would!
Are the police. Matt, who for all I know is still posting on this board, is a British Cop, and a nice enough guy, who described being shown videos of terrorists walking through shopping centers. He described courses that the Police took in order to recognise terrorisits. And these courses emphasized the use of photography. He bought off of this... :(

So why shouldn't the public as well?

Take a look at this poster distributed by the British equivalent of TSA...



Notice the reasonable language? These guys are going to photograph security cameras is their evil plans. Does anyone ever wonder what good a photograph of a security camera is?

These photographs are goiing to help a terrorist wanting to blow himself up? :D







Dave
 
5 Asian men taking photos of a Nuclear Power station, whats wrong with that?
  1. They were not taking pix, it turns out...just had a camera in the car
  2. Nothing wrong w/ taking pix of a NPS, if it was from a public space
Too right they were arrested
This arrest was wrong, for any number of reasons. It constituted "punishment" w/o due process. They were innocent of anything that deserved being put in prison for 2 days and interrogated. The authorities finally decided they were innocent, there was no evidence of any wrong-doing, and released them, w/o charges!

You are an who reacts instead of thinks...I'll let you guess the 5-letter word that describes you.
You forgot to mention that they had their homes ransacked as well. Yes...my bad!

I just want to reiterate that in general terms I have no problem with the police acting on "suspicion". However, given that this is very much a judgement call, it speaks volumes about (and says very little for) the police when they call five people in a car with a camera "suspicious".
OK, but do you want these type people flipping your burger?!
P.S. Maybe I'm slow but I still can't figure out the five letter word...
Shux...am I gonna have to spell it? OK, I'll start down that path by mentioning that it starts with the letter "i".

--
Charlie Davis
Nikon 5700, Sony R1, Nikon D50, Nikon D300
HomePage: http://www.1derful.info
"He had a photographic memory which was never developed."
 
Shux...am I gonna have to spell it? OK, I'll start down that path by mentioning that it starts with the letter "i".
Damn! I thought ijit was a four letter word. :)
Only in Wal-Mart... :-0

See, that wasn't so hard... ;-)
--
Charlie Davis
Nikon 5700, Sony R1, Nikon D50, Nikon D300
HomePage: http://www.1derful.info
"He had a photographic memory which was never developed."
 
While (whilst?) I've certainly shot cameras (because they look out of place on a historic building, are in the background of a shot of my bride, etc.), I understand some of this.

Photos of cameras may facilitate mapping their coverage of the surrounding area.

So it may be reasonable to detain someone who seems to be limiting his/her photography to security systems. I am NOT going to go through Charing Cross station shooting only/mainly security systems.

One may argue that clever terrorists will conceal their interest in security precautions by taking mostly ordinary photos. That's certainly true but:
  • There is no lack of dim people with an interest in terrorism. We need to watch for them, too. Luckily or not, stupid or imprudent criminals are harder to predict but generally easier to catch.
  • There is a wide range from someone who takes no photos of security systems to one who takes nothing but. Police have to make judgments here. You can convince me that they get so much conflicting advice that errors in judgment are bound to happen. I don't need convincing to know that they have to take action if a civilian points out what the reporter believes a suspicious person. The PC may think it all silly but the contact must be made and the report followed up.
It always rankles me that I have to keep this in mind when shooting in an urban area but here it is.

And by the way, I have this personal rule that I do not obviously photograph police carrying automatic weapons. Probably legal, depending on jurisdiction, but I'd rather not waste my holiday time debating the law with police. I've been on both sides - it's almost always aggravating to everyone involved and accomplishes little else.
 
While (whilst?) I've certainly shot cameras (because they look out of place on a historic building, are in the background of a shot of my bride, etc.), I understand some of this.

Photos of cameras may facilitate mapping their coverage of the surrounding area.

So it may be reasonable to detain someone who seems to be limiting his/her photography to security systems. I am NOT going to go through Charing Cross station shooting only/mainly security systems.
If in fact you are shooting the context of a camera, then it is impossible to appear to be shooting the camera. :)

Think it through. Next time you see a security camera imagine shooting it in a manner which would be of any use to Any criminal. In NYC, we have these cameras on the subway. Even shooting a camera in "Context" is basically impossible. Each station looks much like any other station. And any part of a station looks much like any other part of the station. Fact is, the whole question is absurd.

It's a red herring anyway. Guy has a bomb strapped to his body and blows himself up, who cares about the camera?
One may argue that clever terrorists will conceal their interest in security precautions by taking mostly ordinary photos. That's certainly true but:
  • There is no lack of dim people with an interest in terrorism. We need to watch for them, too. Luckily or not, stupid or imprudent criminals are harder to predict but generally easier to catch.
  • There is a wide range from someone who takes no photos of security systems to one who takes nothing but. Police have to make judgments here. You can convince me that they get so much conflicting advice that errors in judgment are bound to happen. I don't need convincing to know that they have to take action if a civilian points out what the reporter believes a suspicious person. The PC may think it all silly but the contact must be made and the report followed up.
The Times Square bomber invaded a place with literally 'thousands of secuirty cameras. Not one of them prevented the crime. And not one of them aided in later catching the guy (he wore a wig). The crime was prevented because a (Muslim) Street vender noticed smoke. The guy was caught because of the vehicle registration. All of these cameras were good for perverts watching pretty girls walk bye... :(
It always rankles me that I have to keep this in mind when shooting in an urban area but here it is.

And by the way, I have this personal rule that I do not obviously photograph police carrying automatic weapons. Probably legal, depending on jurisdiction, but I'd rather not waste my holiday time debating the law with police. I've been on both sides - it's almost always aggravating to everyone involved and accomplishes little else.
Probably a wise move...

It IS however perfectly legal. I shot a lot of National Guardsmen after 9/11, simply because pictures of men holding automatic weapons in a Western City are in fact interesting shots.

Dave
 
What does it matter if the photos are useful? The fact is that terrorists do photograph areas they are interested in prior to making attacks including security cameras, as was confirmed at the the recent inquest into the London Tube bombings. It follows it is reasonable that use of a camera in unusual circumstances should be a factor in raising suspicion.
 
What does it matter if the photos are useful? The fact is that terrorists do photograph areas they are interested in prior to making attacks including security cameras, as was confirmed at the the recent inquest into the London Tube bombings. It follows it is reasonable that use of a camera in unusual circumstances should be a factor in raising suspicion.
That's true. Any terrorist of average intelligence will NOT use his camera in a way that would raise suspicion. Duh. The people who are raising suspicion are just average people...therein is the conundrum...how to detect terrorists who are smart enough to blend in and not detect non-terrorists? I don't think it can be done...

Have you ever watched a creative photographer at work? They often do "strange" things to get the pix they see in their head. They don't blend in...they attract attention, because "normal" people don't have visions in their head that they feel compelled to photograph.

There are hundreds of reports of honest photographers attracting too much attention... BUT there are scarce reports of the authorities detecting genuine terrorists before detonation. It seems, at first, to be a sensible thing to do (have cops monitor photography), but I see no evidence that it actually works! It just gets the photographers hot and frothy!

--
Charlie Davis
Nikon 5700, Sony R1, Nikon D50, Nikon D300
HomePage: http://www.1derful.info
"He had a photographic memory which was never developed."
 
What does it matter if the photos are useful? The fact is that terrorists do photograph areas they are interested in prior to making attacks including security cameras, as was confirmed at the the recent inquest into the London Tube bombings. It follows it is reasonable that use of a camera in unusual circumstances should be a factor in raising suspicion.
That's true. Any terrorist of average intelligence will NOT use his camera in a way that would raise suspicion. Duh.
Experience tells us that it has less to do with intelligence and more to do with training.
The people who are raising suspicion are just average people...therein is the conundrum...how to detect terrorists who are smart enough to blend in and not detect non-terrorists? I don't think it can be done...
It can but it comes with a price. "The price of freedom is eternal vigilance". Some of us just aren't willing to pay the price some of us aren't. When the latter outvote the former freedom as we know it today will be a thing of the past.
Have you ever watched a creative photographer at work? They often do "strange" things to get the pix they see in their head. They don't blend in...they attract attention, because "normal" people don't have visions in their head that they feel compelled to photograph.
If you've ever watched a pro at work assessing the vulnerability of a potential target quite the opposite is true, especially if the pro is working in a foreign country. A large part of the job is to blend in for obvious reasons.
There are hundreds of reports of honest photographers attracting too much attention... BUT there are scarce reports of the authorities detecting genuine terrorists before detonation. It seems, at first, to be a sensible thing to do (have cops monitor photography), but I see no evidence that it actually works! It just gets the photographers hot and frothy!
When security measures are successful there is little reason to broadcast the success. It is in fact quite counter productive.

Don't forget the utility of a dry run. One way to determine the vulnerability of a potential target is to do test runs to see how alert the locals are and just what sets them off. One way to lull security people to sleep is to set off their "alarms" for no good reasons a few times and then, just as they roll their eyes at another incident you catch them off guard. Even low life burglars have learned that trick.

Free and open societies are very vulnerable to the actions of terrorists. How long we can remain as free and as open as we are now will be determined by our resolve and our success in maintaining a happy medium between eternal vigilance and relative freedom.

(Happy to see so that so far this discussion has not deteriorated into the usual name calling and personal attacks normally associated with this subject.)
--
Fiat Lux
 
BUT there are scarce reports of the authorities detecting genuine terrorists before detonation. It seems, at first, to be a sensible thing to do (have cops monitor photography), but I see no evidence that it actually works! It just gets the photographers hot and frothy!
Thank god there are scarce reports of actual detonations as well. Whether one is because of the other we will never know but it's a little glib to dismiss it as ineffective. Catching terrorists is preferable but deterring them is a good alternative for me. As for photographers being hot and frothy again there are some clear well publicised examples where it all went wrong but even those are really few and far between, as well in the scheme of things.
 
The answer to that is very simple, just act like a tourist with a camera/phone and blend in. The camera/phones have gotten good enough for documentation now.
--

' You don't have to have the best of everything to get the best out of what you do have'.
 
What does it matter if the photos are useful? The fact is that terrorists do photograph areas they are interested in prior to making attacks including security cameras, as was confirmed at the the recent inquest into the London Tube bombings. It follows it is reasonable that use of a camera in unusual circumstances should be a factor in raising suspicion.
In other words, anyone with a camera is a potential terrorist?

Look. Can you name a terrorist attack against a "hard target?" For example, the inside control panels of a Nuke plant might be useful to terrorists. A photograph of a subway seat? How do you define, "unusual circumstances?"

As it turns out, terrorists do not think of themselves as "terrorists." They think of themselves as normal human beings putting their lives on the line for what they believe. And they sometimes have cameras. I would like a link to this report, because frankly, there is a difference between taking snapshots, and blowing up trains. And I'm sceptical of anyone who makes the claim that photographs are needed to locate a subway seat.

SInce my view of photography is the exact same view as the NYPD, who mocks and redicules the idea that photography is a tool of these kinds of terrorists I think it's a load of huey... :)

Dave
 
Have you ever watched a creative photographer at work? They often do "strange" things to get the pix they see in their head. They don't blend in...they attract attention, because "normal" people don't have visions in their head that they feel compelled to photograph.
If you've ever watched a pro at work assessing the vulnerability of a potential target quite the opposite is true, especially if the pro is working in a foreign country. A large part of the job is to blend in for obvious reasons.
What does this mean? A "Pro" doesn't go around blowing up subway stations, or buses. Doesn't take a proffessional anything to blow up a bus. There are in our country, "hard targets." Merely taking pictures of a nuclear plant is the exact same thing as using Google Earth. A pro, would somehow get into the plant, photograph the control panel, go home and try to figure it out. And then an organized armed raid, would take the place over.

Let's keep our eye on the eight ball here.
There are hundreds of reports of honest photographers attracting too much attention... BUT there are scarce reports of the authorities detecting genuine terrorists before detonation. It seems, at first, to be a sensible thing to do (have cops monitor photography), but I see no evidence that it actually works! It just gets the photographers hot and frothy!
When security measures are successful there is little reason to broadcast the success. It is in fact quite counter productive.
Never happened. I'm a member in good standing of the Counter Terrorism school at West Point. I've never heard of a photographer being arrested for actually being a terrorist. More over they have in their secure area the Al Qaeda training manual, which states over and over again to avoid using a camera, and if you must use a camera, them make sure it's not visible. And in this case they were talking about hard targets, military bases, not petting zoo's.
Don't forget the utility of a dry run. One way to determine the vulnerability of a potential target is to do test runs to see how alert the locals are and just what sets them off. One way to lull security people to sleep is to set off their "alarms" for no good reasons a few times and then, just as they roll their eyes at another incident you catch them off guard. Even low life burglars have learned that trick.
Tell me in a million words or less what the meaning of "dry run" is when you're blowing up a train? Mind you, if that is the definition of "dry run," then every morning when they go to work, they are doing "dry runs."
Free and open societies are very vulnerable to the actions of terrorists. How long we can remain as free and as open as we are now will be determined by our resolve and our success in maintaining a happy medium between eternal vigilance and relative freedom.
What is "relative freedom?"

The only way to prevent the kinds of attacks that the West has experienced is through normal hard working Cops and informers. A public, that notices things such as packages left laying around, or that Muslim peddler who noticed smoke coming out of a parked van. It has in fact nothing to do with giving up any freedom - Unless you feel that waiting in line at an airport means "giving up a freedom." The freedom to board a plane in five minutes? Or the freedom to drive my truck through a tunnel without being gone over? :)

Combating these kinds of terorists should not require the necessity of giving up any freedom. I fact the reverse it true. By increasing the number of suspects, to the point of silliness, we will lose sight of the real dangers.
(Happy to see so that so far this discussion has not deteriorated into the usual name calling and personal attacks normally associated with this subject.)
Just remember, "If everyone is a suspect, no one is a suspect"
Dave
 
War is always a menace to liberty. This was recognized by the Founders of America, who did all they could to keep the power of making War in the hands of the representatives of the people. Reading the Federalist Papers we can see that this was always uppermost in their minds. We need not guess about this. It was uppermost in their minds because they knew that the fear of the "enemy" is always an excuse to take away the liberty of everyone. Nevertheless, wars happen. Wars sometimes have to be fought. From time to time, there is no choice other than to fight or to perish. But even in wars, the power to pursue them remains in the hands of the legislature.

But things have to be kept in perspective. To what degree do we willingly surrender rights because of being in a State of War? In WWII the survival of the Nation itself was at stake. If things had worked out differently, the United States may very well have found itself physically occupied by the Germans and Japanese. Our way of life, would have ended. Our country would have ceased to exist.

Abuses to Liberty were common. The Japanese, who were American Citizens, were shamefully interred in concentration camps. Two people, one of whom was an American Citizen, were shamefully tried by a military tribunal instead of the Civil Courts. The press was censored, although only in military matters. No doubt if I had lived during those days I would not have been overly worried about things we now know were completely unnecessary. After all, the fate of the Nation was in danger. Some of those previous abuses have been rectified. The Japanese have had an apology, and at least some financial payment for their suffering. And of course such things as Military censorship were completely justified. Even so, in the Middle of the War, the military censorship overall was ended. The disaster at Pearl Harbor was revealed as the disaster it was in 1944. The Public was kept informed over the temporary defeat during the Battle of Bulge, and so on.

Today, I find it disturbing that there are those who call, not for sacrificing convenience, which after all, has nothing to do with liberty or rights - But urge that we sacrifice our rights themselves, "In order to keep them."

Is the country in any danger of being taken over?

Is the country in any danger of being defeated?

Is there any chance at ALL that we can lose this war against us, declared on us by a few thousand religious fanatics?

There is none, not even a statistical chance. I who live near Ground Zero, who watched the towers fall, know that such attacks were only capable of succeeding because of the laxity of the administration in power. I cannot claim that this laxity is solely to be laid at their feet, but when all is said and done, this is water under the bridge. But if such an attack succeeded today, it would only be because of criminal negligence. So what then are the options of these religious fanatics? Why they might kill some of us. And the fact that they can kill some of us, in some mysterious way means that we should surrender our liberties and our rights; in fact everything that makes us a powerful and free nation, so that I can be safe from them? This is no different then demanding that I be safe from lighting, or some criminal who might take my life for the Twenty dollars in my pocket. Moreover this so called War is never going to cleanly end, Such talk, such requests, are to my way of thinking, not only cowardly and irrational, but self defeating. A glance at history shows that only free nations can survive over time. **** Germany lasted 12 years, and even the Soviet Union, lasted only seventy. And since the danger of terrorism will never end, it's a call for a permanent end to our rights. And does it really make a difference if the fanatics name is bin Laden or McVeigh, or Rudolph?

This so called war we are fighting is nothing more or less than fighting a criminal gang, and the methods used for fighting this criminal gang are Police methods. I may from time to time become nervous when I drive over a bridge or go through a tunnel or when I ride the subway. So what? Most of that fear is driven by an hysterical media. Life is full of dangers, and from a statistical point of view, the danger from being killed by some lunatic are far higher then being killed by some fanatic.

I am sick and tired of those who demand that I be so frightened, that I have no other option than to sink to the lowest common denominator of fear, and make everyone around me a suspect.

Absolutely, certain sacrifices to convenience are in order. If I have to wait to board a plane, or have my truck checked before a bridge, so be it. But to acquiesce in the dismantling of my rights in order to protect my rights. is the statement of someone who has never valued their rights, and doesn't understand the purpose of rights.

Dave
 

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