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Want to replace FZ18 with newer compact super zoom

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raimaster said:
raimaster wrote:

Daniel, why you dont tell op about smearing and water colors effect in every images at all base iso of HS20 because of CMOS sensor?
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Because that is a load of nonsense, there is the CMOS effect to a tiny degree but in my opinion it is not relevant to the overall image quality, it is certainly a better camera than the FZ18, the fact that it doesn't blow highlights like crazy helps a great deal
raimaster said:
At least i have read 3 reviews on web about HS20 with one similar voice -- not better than its predecessor (HS10).
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Those "reviews" are just utter garbage, just cheap sites trying to boost their hit rate.

The Hs20 is significantly better than the HS10 in every area especially in regard to the problems of foliage smearing and operation speed.

I am not sure what your problem is, quite frankly I wish Panasonic came up with a manual zoom like the HS20 as I am a fan of Panasonic equipment.

But they didn't so I purchased an HS20 and I am simply trying to share my experience.

I also have an LX5, if the HS20 produced crap photographs I think I could figure that out.
 
Daniel Lowe said:
Daniel Lowe said:
raimaster wrote:

Daniel, why you dont tell op about smearing and water colors effect in every images at all base iso of HS20 because of CMOS sensor?
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Because that is a load of nonsense, there is the CMOS effect to a tiny degree but in my opinion it is not relevant to the overall image quality, it is certainly a better camera than the FZ18, the fact that it doesn't blow highlights like crazy helps a great deal
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FZ18 (2007 CCD - Venus Engine III) VS HS20 (2011 - latest engine/sensor)
Can you post crop 100% 8MP FZ18 vs 100% 8MP HS20 M Mode.

But anyway, please read my first reply -- I noted 4 points. Lens, Sensor, Engine and Pixel Size. Means: Best Lens, CCD Sensor, Better Engine and Lower pixel size?? What do you think?? or have other opinion??

1. Can you explain why all premium compact with latest engine still use CCD sensor instead of CMOS?

2. Why all premium compact keep pixel size lower than 12MP, though those have larger sensor?
3. Why HS20 in lower pixel 8MP mode better than 16MP?

4. Can you confirm the HS20 IQ (with CMOS sensor latest engine) is better than FZ28 or FZ35 (CCD / venus engine IV)? is the IQ more detail and less smearing on HS20? Better performance than FZ35? as my sample FZ28 vs HS10.

HS20 is good camera, has better engine, good idea (dual mode) but need CCD sensor and lower pixel size to be best superzoom camera (as your opinion).
 
Rai and Daniel ,

Geez, you guys ... you are both skilled photographers who present thoughtful and beautiful images. You are (both) much more than your mere machines ... You both transcend machines !!!

None of our machines are perfect, and the purchase possibilities for new cameras in the retail product-pipeline these days are limited ... It's likely that the OP may well have to choose from current product offerings - and will not have the fine fortune of finding "golden oldies" manufactured several years ago that (also) happen to be in "like-new" working condition ... ;)

Think of it this way. If everybody else takes your advice, and buys and uses the same hardware/software that you yourselves choose to use - then everybody else's images will start to look just like yours (or, perhaps even a bit better than yours). Be careful what you wish for ... :P

Keep the Fun,

DM

PS - And send me some dark-frame RAW shots (of cameras yet untested by my "read-noise microscope") - no incoming light , 0.4 Second Exposure-Time, and at ISO=100, 200, 400, and 800)
 
Daniel Lowe said:
I had the FZ18 and the FZ35 and wasn't impressed with the latest offerings from Panasonic so purchased the Fuji HS20.

In my opinion, there is no other current superzoom worth considering for stills photography than the HS20. The video is not great (but still way better than the FZ18) but the manual control is the closest you will get to a DSLR by miles over the competition.

It takes a while to get used to after using Panasonic (which have very good 'IA' modes) but once you get the hang of it, it is a wonderful camera with about 60% more capability than the FZ18.

Image quality is excellent in 8mp mode and is close to my LX5 in low light, this is something that no FZ camera can do.

The EXR sensor in the HS20 is ideally suited to superzoom cameras and it appears to be delivering far better results than any of the other current CMOS sensor cameras, including the FZ100.

here are some of my pics:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/61559373@N06/5618347815/in/photostream/lightbox/
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Totally disagree with your comments about the HS20 when compared to the Pannys, at least the FZ40/45 anyway.

I used the HS20 & thought it was a terrible camera so stuck with the FZ45 thank god. Not sure how you came up with your comparisons but I was very disappointed with the IQ from the HS20 & felt like it made using a affix kit, a badly made one at that.

I would compare the HS20 with the FZ45 not the 18 that is just a silly comparison. Buy a HS20 at you peril
 
Gary Hunt said:
Gary Hunt wrote:

I used the HS20 & thought it was a terrible camera so stuck with the FZ45 thank god.
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Good for you, but your experience is no more valid than mine, and we can't both be right.
Gary Hunt said:
Not sure how you came up with your comparisons but I was very disappointed with the IQ from the HS20 & felt like it made using a affix kit, a badly made one at that.
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Because you didn't take long enough to learn the camera, not the cameras fault.
Gary Hunt said:
I would compare the HS20 with the FZ45 not the 18 that is just a silly comparison. Buy a HS20 at you peril
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Buy the HS20 if you want the best stills image quality currently available would be a fairer statement.
The camera is not "Gary friendly" would be another.
 
"Buy the HS20 if you want the best stills image quality currently available would be a fairer statement."

Yes it would if you compared it to a camera phone ;)

Don't forget your oven gloves :)
 
Daniel Lowe said:
Daniel Lowe said:
Gary Hunt wrote:

I used the HS20 & thought it was a terrible camera so stuck with the FZ45 thank god.
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Good for you, but your experience is no more valid than mine, and we can't both be right.
Daniel Lowe said:
Not sure how you came up with your comparisons but I was very disappointed with the IQ from the HS20 & felt like it made using a affix kit, a badly made one at that.
Click to expand...
Because you didn't take long enough to learn the camera, not the cameras fault.
Daniel Lowe said:
I would compare the HS20 with the FZ45 not the 18 that is just a silly comparison. Buy a HS20 at you peril
Click to expand...
Buy the HS20 if you want the best stills image quality currently available would be a fairer statement.
The camera is not "Gary friendly" would be another.
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Actually, you CAN both be right. Very often different users can get the best results out of cameras that may not suit another. That's why they make so many different brands and models of cameras and why there is no "best camera" for everyone.

It's pretty silly to argue about which is "better" because for each user you'll get a different result and it's based on so many factors... and there's more to it than "just" image quality. Usability, feel, overall construction and many other factors go into which camera is best for each person. Chill out and just enjoy photography.

Feel the urge to argue? Instead, go out and spend that 30 minutes taking some pictures. :)
 
Darren AM said:
Actually, you CAN both be right. Very often different users can get the best results out of cameras that may not suit another. That's why they make so many different brands and models of cameras and why there is no "best camera" for everyone.

It's pretty silly to argue about which is "better" because for each user you'll get a different result and it's based on so many factors... and there's more to it than "just" image quality. Usability, feel, overall construction and many other factors go into which camera is best for each person. Chill out and just enjoy photography.

Feel the urge to argue? Instead, go out and spend that 30 minutes taking some pictures. :)
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Well said,

But I think Image Quality is UNIVERSAL, and every camera reviews speak about IQ over the features. Whether we chose or not this camera is different story. With Good IQ camera even bad photographer can have photos with qood IQ.

thanks - rai -
 
Darren AM said:
Darren AM wrote:

Feel the urge to argue? Instead, go out and spend that 30 minutes taking some pictures. :)
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Good advice and I agree with you, though I would point out this is not an isolated incident, Gary has seen fit to rubbish the camera at every opportunity on the Fuji forum and seems keen to point out how stupid we all are for buying it.

 
 
Stick with the FZ18 unless you can find an FZ28 somewhere which I feel was the best of the FZ's . I owned most of them at one time or another. If you decide to jump up to the G1 (skip the G2 it comes with a cheaper kit lens) you're in another league.
 
 
This review:
http://www.infosyncworld.com/...-cameras/fujifilm-finepix-hs20-exr/11934.html

Is the only one that seems to actually understand the camera they are reviewing.

The other reviews that suggest the HS20 is not as good as it's predecessor are quite frankly just nonsense, the AF is better, quicker, foliage is not smeared and low light performance is on another level all together.

Camera reviewers like this are next to worthless in selecting a new camera when they ignore the best traits of the new model all together.
Ridiculous.
 
Daniel ,

Have reads several portions of the review that you referenced at:

http://www.infosyncworld.com/reviews/digital-cameras/fujifilm-finepix-hs20-exr/11934.html

They have some good things to say about the HS20, indeed and the (JPG-mode) SNR looks promising in their samples (which, as well as your other posted samples, do look quite interesting).

Are the DR (Wide Dynamic Range), SN (High Sensitivity and Low Noise), and HR (High Resolution) modes operational in the case of "raw" image-files that the camera records - or are they only available in JPG modes?

I see that Lightroom 3.4 will accept and process HS20 "raw" image-files, and would be very curious to see what the dark-shot performance is like (in the DR, SN, and HR modes, if applicable) for 0.4 Second exposures at ISO=100, 200, 400, and 800. Please Message me if you are willing to provide

DM
 
Detail Man said:
Daniel ,

Have reads several portions of the review that you referenced at:

http://www.infosyncworld.com/reviews/digital-cameras/fujifilm-finepix-hs20-exr/11934.html

They have some good things to say about the HS20, indeed and the (JPG-mode) SNR looks promising in their samples (which, as well as your other posted samples, do look quite interesting).

Are the DR (Wide Dynamic Range), SN (High Sensitivity and Low Noise), and HR (High Resolution) modes operational in the case of "raw" image-files that the camera records - or are they only available in JPG modes?

I see that Lightroom 3.4 will accept and process HS20 "raw" image-files, and would be very curious to see what the dark-shot performance is like (in the DR, SN, and HR modes, if applicable) for 0.4 Second exposures at ISO=100, 200, 400, and 800. Please Message me if you are willing to provide

DM
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Nice try DM,

seems you need another volunteers now who want to send you HS20 "dark shot performance" :D. I guess there are more than 20 members here that use FZ100, 40 and around 10 members at FTF that use HS20. And DL personal is very active, just like keyspeaker of HS20, i am sure he will send you file requested, to proof that with latest CMOS technology, called EXR + latest engine can easyly defeat CCD sensor even with 16MP especially with 8MP. Anyway, i will help you to sounding this request at FTF.

rai
 
Rai ,

I like both you and Daniel, and am troubled by the competitive, opinionated, harsh atmosphere ...

I disagree with your stated view that:
raimaster said:
... Image Quality is UNIVERSAL ...
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It is true that my tests (of the cameras tested, so far) show that our FZ28s have the lowest FZ-Series (demosiaced, RGB-separated) read-noise levels. Note that my tests of the LX3/LX5 show that their image-sensors easily surpass the (read-noise as measured) performance of the FZ28 ...

(In my view) it is not an objective, scientific, and provable truth that you or I or Daniel or anybody else will have the same aesthetic preferences and tastes where it comes to camera hardware ...

If Daniel feels reticent to provide dark-shot test-images, it may possibly be (as much) due to the competitive, opinionated, harsh atmosphere that sometimes evolves surrounding discussions about camera hardware, as it may be about anything else ...

I myself have argued over the discovery of objective and measurable facts about this or that number or performance specification. But I do not think that if another person happens to prefer the images that they create with their own camera hardware, that they deserve personal ridicule.

Respectfully,

DM
 
Detail Man said:
I like both you and Daniel, and am troubled by the competitive, opinionated, harsh atmosphere ...

I disagree with your stated view that:
Detail Man said:
... Image Quality is UNIVERSAL ...
Click to expand...
It is true that my tests (of the cameras tested, so far) show that our FZ28s have the lowest FZ-Series (demosiaced, RGB-separated) read-noise levels. Note that my tests of the LX3/LX5 show that their image-sensors easily surpass the (read-noise as measured) performance of the FZ28 ...

(In my view) it is not an objective, scientific, and provable truth that you or I or Daniel or anybody else will have the same aesthetic preferences and tastes where it comes to camera hardware ...

If Daniel feels reticent to provide dark-shot test-images, it may possibly be (as much) due to the competitive, opinionated, harsh atmosphere that sometimes evolves surrounding discussions about camera hardware, as it may be about anything else ...

I myself have argued over the discovery of objective and measurable facts about this or that number or performance specification. But I do not think that if another person happens to prefer the images that they create with their own camera hardware, that they deserve personal ridicule.

Respectfully,

DM
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Hi Detail Man

I would be happy to help you with the test, but I am not sure exactly what it is you are testing! Can you maybe private message me and explain what you would need, or perhaps link to a thread where this has been discussed, so I can understand?

I am not sure why so many people have rallied against this Fuji camera, it really is pretty good for a superzoom. Even if my own enthusiasm is misplaced, I still think it is (at the very least) as good as any of the other current offerings.

Fujifilm cams do have their quirks though, and I can accept that they may not be for everybody.
 
I'm exhausted by the effort to dump my FZ18. I've auditioned a succession of highly regarded dslrs and even a 30X bridge. Every one of them felt better in my hands than the toy-like FZ18. And every one of them are gone.

Like the far more talented Daniel Lowe, the Fuji HS20 seems the best candidate for what I'm after, which is three qualities -- in addition to the ultimate matter of IQ: at least 30X zoom, excellent continuous speed for action, and superior low light/high ISO performance.

Delightful bonuses, for me at least, are the numerous external control options and the manual zoom, in addition to great ergonomics. I have no interest in video fortunately, because that's not the '20's strong suit.

Nor, sadly, is its approachability for many folks. Because while the HS20 may offer a lot, it demands a lot. Some of its magic comes courtesy of its EXR technology, which -- while not exactly rocket science -- can add significantly to the learning curve.

Let's put it this way, it ain't your average FZ18's comparatively effortless path to good photos. In fact, it's difficult enough to have given birth to a seemingly small but highly vocal, even vindictive, band of detractors.

There's, of course, no way to tell where you'd fall along the satisfaction curve. If you prize the features as much as I, and admire the images produced by Daniel and some others as much as I, you'll brush aside the noise and give the '20 a try. But while I certainly wouldn't cheat myself of the opportunity, I would exercise the same financial prudence of return-ability that I would with any camera purchase.

Meanwhile, I've decided to give myself, and my FZ18, a rest. It's earned a home. No apologies needed.

--
Tim, HS20, FZ18, F20
 
Daniel Lowe said:
Daniel Lowe said:
Darren AM wrote:

Feel the urge to argue? Instead, go out and spend that 30 minutes taking some pictures. :)
Click to expand...
Good advice and I agree with you, though I would point out this is not an isolated incident, Gary has seen fit to rubbish the camera at every opportunity on the Fuji forum and seems keen to point out how stupid we all are for buying it.

Click to expand...
Tell Tell TiT
 
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