To Ulysses: Time to go with 717?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Yang
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There is very little difference here between the multi-zone focus in the F717 and the Flexizone focus in the G3. And with the G3 you get more control of this feature. :-)

I'm surprised that you like it in one camera and not in the other.

I rarely use either camera in the automatic zone selection. I'd rather move it manually. Sometimes the F717 will choose the wrong zone, depending upon the other areas of contrast.

While I like having the EVF (I was always an advocate of it), many users do find it difficult to see details. It is one of the best EVF viewers available in a digicam. But its resolution is not as good as some would like. I think it depends upon how well you can train your eye to distinguish these details. Some users never get to that point. Others like yourself do just fine.
I find using 717’s EVF very helpful for controlling the focus in
difficult shooting situations like the following example: I just
wanted to focus on the man with a camera in the hand. Through 717’s
EVF, I could clearly follow where the camera actual got its focus
(key word, multipoint AF - the focus zone is automatically
high-lighted). This situation could be a challenge for the G3,
since in AF mode it’s very difficult to check in LCD if the camera
was fooled by the surroundings of high contrast and focused on the
wrong person or on the background.

If Canon is really monitoring this forum, I hope they will take
this point into consideration for their future models (e.g. the G4):
Yang
--

Ulysses
Repository of Some of My Stuff
http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=4291269101

I'm an uncle!!!

 
You'd be "locked" in some form or fashion no matter what you do.
Each camera has it's own system of accessories, with few
compatibilities to move forward.
What I was trying to say is that I would probably ebay or give everything together including the accesssories when I decide that I need a new DSLR camera and do not let whatever I have now to be a limiting factor.
So I find it best to just go with what camera offers you the
shooting style you want. If you want to shoot RAW, then your
options are paired down somewhat. If you want certain flash
systems, this thins out the crowd yet again.

As far as image quality, there is little between the higher-end
prosumer cameras, just preferential matters.

And if you're thinking of a Foveon camera at THIS time, you're
locked in even more so. :-)
Haha, I just said "maybe". to illustrate technology changes very quickly and if I would to spend a considerable amount of money for DLSR, I would not let things I have now to limit myself but free my mind to take the jump, whatever I feel best for myself in the future
Ulysses:

I'm thinking of what I would do if I were you...I think if I take
photos for commercial or business reasons, I would take a few
photos from both and take them to a few of my customers, let them
tell me their preference...

I intend to upgrade to DSLR too in a year. But I think I will not
sort of "locked" myself in Canon by thinking of using whatever
accessory I have now. If I spend $$$ for a DSLR, I want myself
totally free to make a decision on whatever will be available in
the market at that time, maybe a Foveon based camera....
--

Ulysses
Repository of Some of My Stuff
http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=4291269101

I'm an uncle!!!

 
What I was trying to say is that I would probably ebay or give
everything together including the accesssories when I decide that I
need a new DSLR camera and do not let whatever I have now to be a
limiting factor.
Exactly my reasoning. I figure I can always sell the necessary equipment for a high enough price to nearly cover my own costs (I have little doubt of this). And this leaves me free to move on to something else.

For instance, most recently, I have had nothing but Sony gear. This did not make me doubtful of trying out the Canon system.

What is very nice, however, is that since I did not sell ALL of the Sony stuff, I am now in a better position than ever. For the future, I can always go back to a Sony camera without much trouble, or I could go with Canon (or a couple of other systems). For many people like us, there is no real deterrent at all to trying out a new system of camera and accessories.

--

Ulysses
Repository of Some of My Stuff
http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=4291269101

I'm an uncle!!!

 
There is very little difference here between the multi-zone focus
in the F717 and the Flexizone focus in the G3. And with the G3 you
get more control of this feature. :-)

I'm surprised that you like it in one camera and not in the other.
perhaps I missed something on the G3, according to my understanding, "Flexizone focus in the G3" lets you choose a focus zone yourselves MANUALLY after you have activated this function. "multi-zone focus in the F717" is an extended AF feature where the camera shows the actual focus zone some where in LCD by high-lighting it AUTOMATICAL. Have you experienced something else on the G3 than me?
 
Yes, you caught the fine distinction here.
perhaps I missed something on the G3, according to my
understanding, "Flexizone focus in the G3" lets you choose a focus
zone yourselves MANUALLY after you have activated this function.
Correct. You have to click the Set button to activate the Flexizone focus. The focus zone turns green, and you are free now to use the omnipad to move it all over the screen. :-)

For example, this is useful to me as a lot of my work is done on a tripod. Rather than move my tripod or the head, I move the focus point via Flexizone.
"multi-zone focus in the F717" is an extended AF feature where the
camera shows the actual focus zone some where in LCD by
high-lighting it AUTOMATICAL.
This is also correct. The problem is that I find that the multi-zone focus in the F717 will choose the wrong thing better than 30% of the time. It's difficult for the camera to guess what I want to focus upon.

So my decision with both the G3 and the F717 is to manually move the focus zone. In the F717, I have a choice of 5 different zones for focus. In the G3, I have the ability to move the zone in much finer increments all over the screen.

In other words, I don't let the camera choose my zone. I choose it myself.

--

Ulysses
Repository of Some of My Stuff
http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=4291269101

I'm an uncle!!!

 
Someone mentioned in another 717 thread that 717 is more for
“serious shooting”. I find it quite true (+ bonus of the best video
ability:)).
I take issue with this assessment. There is nothing about the 717 that makes it more serious than the G3. As has been pointed out countless times, each camera has its strong and weak points, and which is best depends on your particular needs.

Would you consider a photojournalist a "serious" shooter? I frequently see news photographers taking pictures over a crowd by holding their camera over their heads with one hand. Can't really do that with the 717. In a war-like situation, one would need to have one hand free at times while being able to shoot the camera with the other. Not an ideal scenario for the 717.

When you say "serious", perhaps what you really mean is tediously planned photography with plenty of time and advance notice to set up your shot, preferably with a tripod. This includes portraits, landscpe photos, etc.

Let's not forget that the Sony lacks many "serious" features that would be indispensable to a pro, not the least of which are RAW mode and CF compatibility.
I once complained the parameters shown on 717’s CLD are
tooooo small for a easy read. Now, I’ve understood why: “serious
hobby photographer” is supposed to use EVF where all parameters are
very well readable.
The main reason Sony provided an EVF is not because it's better, but because it's the only practical solution when dealing with a 5X lens. Once they had the EVF in place (which does not provide the brightness or clarity of an optical viewfinder) the data display merely came along as icing on the cake.
While shooting this way, I suddenly got the
familiar feels of SLR camera: By using EVF, one can control the
framing and focusing much better than using LCD, and one can hold
the camera more sturdily.
An optical viewfinder offers a brighter and clearer view for focusing. And the only significant downside to the G3's optical viewfinder for framing purposes is the lens obstruction at wide angle, which is more of an annoyance than an actual impediment. There is nothing about an EVF that lets you hold the camera more securely than with an optical viewfinder.
On the 717 one does the zooming and
focusing with the left hand and presses the release button with the
right hand, just like in the “good old time”. While working with
the G3, the right hand is to busy, particularly, after move of the
MF button from left side to the right side (why!!!???).
The 717 has "some" ergonomic avantages due to its larger size and gargantuan lens assembly. Actually, I consider the focusing ring to be more significant than the zoom control. I have no problem witht he zoom control of the G3.

But let's not forget that the 717's large and awkward body have some serious ergonomic drawbacks in other areas, that make it impossible, not just more difficult, to use the camera in certain ways.
I really like 717’s AF, not only because it’s a bit faster than the
G3, but also the way how it works (I guess there’s no difference
between single focus and continuous focus on the 717): It simply
continues doing focus around the subject until the it appears
sharpest and marks the final location and the form of the focus
zone – just like my old SLR camera.
I suspect that the 717's very fast lens take a lot of credit for this. The more light you have, the easier it is to focus. THis is also a big part of the reason why cameras with very slow lenses, like the Nikons, have very poor AF performance.

Anyway, you're just repeating what's already been staqted ad nauseum - the 717 has good, fast AF. Nothing new there.
On the contrary, G3’s
continuous focus mode is useless. While working in single focus
mode, after half-pressing the release button for a re-focus, one
sees (in LCD) the picture is “frozen” for a short time (evokes the
feel of long lag – quite annoying).
Canon offers this as an option, and it is quite effective in reducing AF times during a shooting session with subjects within a certain range. In cases where continuous focusing would be best, G3 owners stil have that option. Again, the 717's advantage is not continuous AF, but the fast lens that allows for faster AF.

I have a Sony DSC-S85, with continuous AF only. My camera has an f2.0 lens and the AF sucks much of the time. I WISH I had been given the option of selecting single hot focus mode, as it would dramatically improve AF speeds in certain cases, such as when I have the camera tucked in my lap and frequently need to take it out and shoot at a far away subject. Each time, the camera has to go from its closes focus setting (my lap) to the farthest (the subject). So again, there's nothing groundbreaking about Sony's AF. It all boils down to the 717's very fast lens.
Personally, I find G3’s so-called flexi-focus
zone totally unpractical. Using exposure lock + pre-focusing for
the middle point is much faster and convenient (while trying this
G3 function I failed to reset the default focus zone +back into the
middle quickly).
Canon does not make generalizations and assumptions about what's best for the photographer, and they try to always leave the choices to the photographer. Since Sony's roots are in consumer electronics and not professional photography, their philosophy is the complete opposite.

FlexiZone is not meant to be the best or only method of shooting. It's just another creative option made available to the photographer by Canon. You are free to sue it or not use it as you see fit. Sonu thinks you're too stupid to handle choices like this, so they don't offer them.

--continued--
 
As a person using meter system, it’s a great pleasure for me, to be
able to read/control the subject distance in meter ( cm) in 717’s
EVF.
God, how arrogant and closed-minded can you get? First of all, I'm in the US and the metric system is NOT the standard here. For us it is a burden, and Sony is being smug and condesceding by failing to offer distance readings in teh English system for cameras sold here.

But more to the point, Canon provides BOTH metric and English units of measurement, as does every lens manufacturer in the entire world! The correct thing would be to provide both, not the one YOU think is better or more convenient for YOU.
I like two zooming speed of the 717. It allows focusing in
telephoto zoom first by using the high speed zooming and than
shooting in wide angle lens by locking the subject distance.
Once again, lens, lens, lens. We all agree that the 717 has a nice lens with fast aperture and fast zoom. That's a single topic, and doesn't bear repeating several times as if we were talking about 20 different features.
717 shots appear quite sharp.
G3 photos look great. Any lack of sharpness is actually prefereable for the "serious" photographers you keep referring to because sharpening is best done in post processing in Photoshop. An over-sharpened images has detail that's lost forever.
Compared with the G3 717’s body is built much solider, particularly
its dial wheel.
Either camera is equally likely to be ruined if dropped, and the 717 is a lot easier to drop thent he G3. By the way, rugged construction and reliability are two separate things. My S85 looks and feels like a precision instrument, but that's little consolation for the crappy jog dial thatb went crazy after two weeks of use, took three weeks for Sony to repair, and then failed again after the camera was jsut past Sony's "generous" 90-day warranty!! I'll take a durable and reliable camera any day over a more nicely finished one with a crappy warranty and a history of poor reliability.
Since I only got a 8 MB MS to do test shots. I haven’t got a feel
for 717’s image quality.
That's OK. You only need to buy eight 128MB Memory Sticks and you'll be out there shooting with the same capacity as a G3 owner using a single, bargain-priced, 1 GB MicroDrive.
All in all, I haven’t made mind, yet,
I think you secretly prefer the G3, but you're frustrated that it won't be available in time for your vacation, so you're desperately trying to convince yourself that the 717 was teh better choice all along.
If 717 would use CF I wouldn’t hesitate a second to go
with it. One solution may be use of image tank (10GB for ca. 300$)
Yep, that's the way to go if you want to make transporting the 717 even bulkier and heavier than it already is.
 
No, no. I don't think this is what Yang meant.
I take issue with this assessment. There is nothing about the 717
that makes it more serious than the G3.
He didn't mean in comparison to the G3. He was simply saying that the F717 is a "serious" camera in its own right, even though it is missing some of the G3 advanced features, as Phil pointed out in the F717 review.
Would you consider a photojournalist a "serious" shooter? I
frequently see news photographers taking pictures over a crowd by
holding their camera over their heads with one hand. Can't really
do that with the 717.
Heheheh... you still put a lot of weight on the "one-handed" issue. Personally, I would rarely use ANY camera with only one hand. It's a convenience, but if I'm in a crowd or in a war-like venue, you can bet I'm going to be holding onto my camera with my hands, my fingers, my feet and toes, my teeth. Nobody is getting that camera out of my possession. :-)

One-hand it, and your camera is a goner. :-)
When you say "serious", perhaps what you really mean is tediously
planned photography with plenty of time and advance notice to set
up your shot, preferably with a tripod. This includes portraits,
landscpe photos, etc.
I think he simply means 'results that can be taken seriously'. Again, not so much in comparison to another camera.
The main reason Sony provided an EVF is not because it's better,
but because it's the only practical solution when dealing with a 5X
lens. Once they had the EVF in place (which does not provide the
brightness or clarity of an optical viewfinder) the data display
merely came along as icing on the cake.
Yep, pretty much. It's the same video feed coming off of the CCD. So the data display just goes along for the ride either to the LCD or to the EVF.
The 717 has "some" ergonomic avantages due to its larger size and
gargantuan lens assembly. Actually, I consider the focusing ring to
be more significant than the zoom control. I have no problem witht
he zoom control of the G3.
Some people love using the ring for zoom control. I think I've used it that way maybe twice. Never use it other than that. I prefer the focus ring to work for that usage only, and don't use it for anything else. But others love it.
I suspect that the 717's very fast lens take a lot of credit for
this. The more light you have, the easier it is to focus. THis is
also a big part of the reason why cameras with very slow lenses,
like the Nikons, have very poor AF performance.
It may be of help. Light buckets always have certain advantages over smaller lenses. :-)
Anyway, you're just repeating what's already been staqted ad
nauseum - the 717 has good, fast AF. Nothing new there.
Heheh... he's discovering it for himself. It's exciting when you actually try it. THe F717 is a genuinely FUN camera to use. Really. :-)
FlexiZone is not meant to be the best or only method of shooting.
It's just another creative option made available to the
photographer by Canon. You are free to sue it or not use it as you
see fit. Sonu thinks you're too stupid to handle choices like this,
so they don't offer them.
Well, I wouldn't word it that way. But you're essentially correct. :-)))

Canon is about options. Thank goodness the options actually WORK.
Sony is about having fun. Thank goodness their images are so darn GOOD.

--

Ulysses
Repository of Some of My Stuff
http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=4291269101

I'm an uncle!!!

 
My biggest concern is G3's new dial wheel (of plastic!!!). It's
loose, and doesn't always responde to turning: I experienced in
manual focus mode many times, that it did rsponde at all when I
turned it quickly.
Hmm... possibly a defective unit? I haven't seen this at all. And
my main dial isn't flimsy at all. At least not yet. :-)))
Is this really a problem with the G3? This is my single biggest complaint about my Sony S85, and I'd hate to get a new camera with the same defective, imprecise control wheel.
On the contrary, 717's dial wheel always
repondes, regardless how quickly one use it.
Sony has been making jog dials for years.

Although keep an eye on it. Some users have reported about it
getting loose over time.
Sony's jog dials aren't what they used to be. The best one I used was on an old digital voice recorder. When I tried out a later model, the dial could no longer be operated without looking at the display, as each click no longer corresponded to a single menu item.

I've observed the same thing with Canon. The wheel on the EOS 650 was great and precise. The wheel on newer Canon SLRs feels overly stiff and its clicks are no longer precise.

Seems everyone is trying to cut costs on these controls, while losing sight of what made them so great in the first place.
 
God, how arrogant and closed-minded can you get?
Whoa, whoa!! Walter. :-))

I'm not here to defend the man, but Yang is a good guy. I don't think he meant any offense or smugness at all. Really. :-)
I think you secretly prefer the G3, but you're frustrated that it
won't be available in time for your vacation, so you're desperately
trying to convince yourself that the 717 was teh better choice all
along.
Well, time schedules can take on great meaning at times like this.

--

Ulysses
Repository of Some of My Stuff
http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=4291269101

I'm an uncle!!!

 
Is this really a problem with the G3? This is my single biggest
complaint about my Sony S85, and I'd hate to get a new camera with
the same defective, imprecise control wheel.
All I can tell ya is that I don't have the same problem with the G3 dial as Yang does. So it makes me wonder if he possibly got a bum wheel, like you did on the S85.

I will say that the G3 wheel feels different. Not bad or worse. It just feels different than the F717. But I don't get errors with either.

--

Ulysses
Repository of Some of My Stuff
http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=4291269101

I'm an uncle!!!

 
perhaps I missed something on the G3, according to my
understanding, "Flexizone focus in the G3" lets you choose a focus
zone yourselves MANUALLY after you have activated this function.
"multi-zone focus in the F717" is an extended AF feature where the
camera shows the actual focus zone some where in LCD by
high-lighting it AUTOMATICAL.
Correct. You have to click the Set button to activate the Flexizone
focus. The focus zone turns green, and you are free now to use the
omnipad to move it all over the screen. :-)
I think the s45 allows both of these choises (you sure the G3 doesn't do it the same way?). In auto mode the camera itself chooses focus point or points while in any of the manual modes you yourself can move around the focuspoint and choose the one you want. I guess you have a problem if you want an automaticly chosen focuspoint and still want to use manual controls though :)

Erik
 
I take issue with this assessment. There is nothing about the 717
that makes it more serious than the G3.
He didn't mean in comparison to the G3. He was simply saying that
the F717 is a "serious" camera in its own right, even though it is
missing some of the G3 advanced features, as Phil pointed out in
the F717 review.
Oh, never mind then... :-)

Yang referred to another person's post that had attempted to whittle down the essential pros and cons of the two cameras. In that post, one of the 717's listed pros was its suitability for "serious" work. I thought this implied that perhaps the G3 was somehow less suited for serious work, either intentionally on the part of the writer or perhaps not. And then I figured that Yang was capitalizing on that blurb when he referred to that post in his own message.

After all, Yang does seem to want to establish the 717 as the better camera without regard for the needs and preferences of the individual user.

That's why my last post perhaps seemed a bit confrontational... I felt I had to defend the G3's honor. :-P

I am newly worried, though, about all this talk about the G3's control dial. I had hoped, especially on an $800 product, that this dial would be precise and reliable, but now I have the feeling that it's not, and that you will not be able to, for example, roll it two clicks and expect the shutter speed to increase by two settings.

If so, NEW ADDITION TO THE G4 WISH LIST!

It used to be that for this kind of money you could expect German-like precision and workmanship in a camera. We're now paying $1000 for cameras whose controls still have the feel of the radio buttons on a AMC Pacer. I want BMW buttons, damnit!
 
God, how arrogant and closed-minded can you get?
Whoa, whoa!! Walter. :-))

I'm not here to defend the man, but Yang is a good guy. I don't
think he meant any offense or smugness at all. Really. :-)
Sorry, but he struck another pet peeve of mine - the metric focusing scale on my S85. If you're American, you can probably imagine the frustration of not only trying to focus manually using an imprecise, thumb wheel and a fuzzy, dim LCD display, but to have to instantly do mental metric conversions before the subject simply walks away.

I can think in meters, but it's not so easy to think in fractions of meters. Not when you need to focus right away.

I can understand someone saying that a metric scale is not a nuisance for them personally, but I do find it arrogant to imply that it should be fine for everyone. I really think Yang was implying that since it wasn't a problem for him, it shouldn't be a problem for anyone.

If Yang's postings are simply recordings of his personal reflection on which camera is best for his personal needs, he's not being completely successful in conveying that distinction to his readers. He really sounds like he's trying to prove by argument that one camera is simply better than the other.
 
Is this really a problem with the G3? This is my single biggest
complaint about my Sony S85, and I'd hate to get a new camera with
the same defective, imprecise control wheel.
All I can tell ya is that I don't have the same problem with the G3
dial as Yang does. So it makes me wonder if he possibly got a bum
wheel, like you did on the S85.

I will say that the G3 wheel feels different. Not bad or worse. It
just feels different than the F717. But I don't get errors with
either.
Maybe you can help me understand how it feels...

Does each click of the wheel correspond to a single item in a menu or a single shutter speed or aperture setting, or does it sometimes take several clicks to move a single step or might a single click cause a change of two or more settings in a menu?

Does this behavior differ depending on the speed at which the dial is rotated?

Assuming the anwer to my first question is "sometimes," can you get reliable, single-click precision be simply turning the wheel more slowly?

Thanks in advance for any feedback you might provide.
 
are these things worth $200? That is about the price difference
between the G3 and the 717. It seems to me, all this is splitting
hairs. If the 717 is "better" in a person's mind, they need to ask
themselves is it $200 better?
For some, $200 may be a huge difference in price. For me, if I'm already investing nearly $1000 in a camera, it's more important that the camera makes me happy than whether it costs me a couple hundred more or less. I think the differences between these two cameras are very significant and each will be a far better choice than the other depending on the user.

If price is your top priority, I'd wait a few months and the prices will come down on their own, as they always do.
 
I guess it depends on your needs and priorities, and how you want
to use the camera. Both cameras are excellent - at the top of the
heap, really.
Thanks Wlater, I found that summary really helpful. Living in the sticks it was only 2 days ago that I finally got my hands on an F717 and I was bitterly diappointed by how cumbersome it was! I couldn't possibly see myself carting it around. So, as someone who had narrowed it down to the G3 or F717 it is reassuring to be reminded of all the other reasons in addition to go for the G3, and Ulysses' photos have also been a great help.

In the absence of Phil's reviews, threads like this have kept me from giving up on this site, and I really appreciate all the trouble you two and Yang and others have taken to research this topic thoroughly.
Rosie
 
That's why my last post perhaps seemed a bit confrontational... I
felt I had to defend the G3's honor. :-P
Hahahah... the fair maiden's walls were never scaled or broached. :-)
I am newly worried, though, about all this talk about the G3's
control dial. I had hoped, especially on an $800 product, that this
dial would be precise and reliable, but now I have the feeling that
it's not, and that you will not be able to, for example, roll it
two clicks and expect the shutter speed to increase by two settings.
If this makes you feel a little better, then it was worth it.

http://www.imagestation.com/video/view.html?id=4244756918&dl=1

--

Ulysses
Repository of Some of My Stuff
http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=4291269101

I'm an uncle!!!

 
morever they [Sony] keep pushing their own lithium batteries (of varying
sizes and capacities) in their lengthy/bulky camera's. no
justification for not using simple AA's in camera's priced under
$500. but Sony wants to have a lifelong revenue from these
batteries.
First of all, since when are Sony cameras bulky? The only bulky Sony is the 700 series, and that's because of their super fast, long focal length zoom lenses, which happen top be excellent - not because of their choice of battery.

I'd rather have the enormous convenience and huge battery life of a Sony or Canon lithium battery than deal with the ridiculous hassle of carying around big, heavy, bulky AA batteries in sets of four, which in most cases, provide less than half the battery power of a leading Sony or Canon camera.

The only lithium powered cameras that are a disgrace are the Nikons, since their tiny and overpriced lithiums deliver only half the battery life of the competing Sony and Canon cameras.
(same goes for Fuji/Olympus/Toshiba pushing a
propreitary/expensive/small/copy-protection-enabled xD card. i used
to have a Smartmedia based Fuji camera but now no more Fuji or
Olympus !)
Olympus also supports CF, so what's the problem? There's nothing wrong with offering choices and options to the customer.

For the sake of entertainment, can you grace us with your opinion of which camera is really best?
 

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