Best macros-Nikon 105 VR Sigma 70 f2.8?

If this is true ...that cameras calculate metering based on the widest aperture and from that point on just takes that as a fix point to calculate what metering should be at a determine aperture , Then why is it that cameras have a light meter ? I have always thought that metering in a camera is not a constant but that the camera measures light in realtime and based on this calculates the correct metering.
(D)SLRs have a light meter (Nikon: RGB exposure sensor) in the ocular assembly, it only gets light when the mirror is down, meters an instant before it flips up for the exposure. The automatic aperture is wide-open with the mirror down for aiming an metering, so that you can see better through the viewfinder. The DoF preview button stops down the aperture with the mirror down - you can then preview the increased DoF when stopped down considerably, well if you still see anything in that dim view.

Notice in Live View the Nikons meter using the main sensor for preview and movies, as the RGB exposure sensor does not get exposed; nevertheless the mirror would briefly flip down for metering prior to the exposure. I hear the D7000 no longer flips the mirror before exposure in LV unless when using flash.
 
Marriane said...

It's important to understand that the camera's meter calculates exposure from the light level it sees when the lens is wide open. The camera then calculates the expected light level when the lens stops down for the exposure - it does not actually measure it. Thus, if the lens doesn't stop down precisely by the expected amount, the exposure will be incorrect
If this is true ...that cameras calculate metering based on the widest aperture and from that point on just takes that as a fix point to calculate what metering should be at a determine aperture , Then why is it that cameras have a light meter ? I have always thought that metering in a camera is not a constant but that the camera measures light in realtime and based on this calculates the correct metering.
You are right and she is wrong. At least for the cameras I know of (Olympus E-500, E-3, Canon G10 and Nikon D300s), her statement is incorrect. The camera makes a preliminary metering wide open. Those are the values you see in the display and those values are constantly changing in real time as you move the camera around. When you press the shutter release the aperture is stopped down, a new metering is made and the values are adjusted accordingly. Occasionally you can see that if you shoot in Auto ISO, P or A priority that the ISO or shutter speed is not what's indicated at the moment you pressed the release. In Shutter priority mode the situation is a bit different since the shutter speed is fixed it must use that speed, but can still adjust the aperture and the ISO (if in Auto ISO) after the last measure.

However, please note that digital cameras don’t measure in real time in a sense that they don’t measure during exposure. Once the shutter is opened the values are fixed, which means that if your exposure changes due to sudden change in light than your image will be ruined. This can be a problem for example during long exposures. Ever since the early 80’s or late 70’s film cameras had real time TTL metering, even during exposure, but that’s no longer the case.
 
You are right and she is wrong.
Blasphemy? ;)

With certain lenses on the D90 I have noticed exposure inconsistencies that would seem almost inexplicable if metering is done with the final aperture indeed.
Evidence?
 
You are right and she is wrong.
Blasphemy? ;)
Why?
With certain lenses on the D90 I have noticed exposure inconsistencies that would seem almost inexplicable if metering is done with the final aperture indeed.
Evidence?
Did you just read the first sentence? I don't know the D90. You just quoted a very small fraction of what I said. The most important is:

At least for the cameras I know of (Olympus E-500, E-3, Canon G10 and Nikon D300s), her statement is incorrect.

In what way is my message touching your D90?

As for evidence, well, there is no way to proof anything like that because what is seen in the display is only seen by me. I can only show the final result, the image, so I don't know what kind of evidence you are looking for. When is the last measurement taken according to you and how can you proof she is right? Just because the D90 has inconsistent exposure it is no proof of anything other than inconsistent exposure. The camera can still make the measurement the way I describe and still miss the exposure. ;)[/U]
 
Did you just read the first sentence? I don't know the D90. You just quoted a very small fraction of what I said. The most important is:

At least for the cameras I know of (Olympus E-500, E-3, Canon G10 and Nikon D300s), her statement is incorrect.

In what way is my message touching your D90?

As for evidence, well, there is no way to proof anything like that because what is seen in the display is only seen by me. I can only show the final result, the image, so I don't know what kind of evidence you are looking for. When is the last measurement taken according to you and how can you proof she is right? Just because the D90 has inconsistent exposure it is no proof of anything other than inconsistent exposure. The camera can still make the measurement the way I describe and still miss the exposure. ;)
C'mon, I'm kidding, and you're overreacting again ;)

Your assertions are no more reliable and substantiated if you write them out in bf - it shows nothing but the desire for domination. For what I've read from you two and what I've seem myself I'd put a bit more trust in Marianne's. I don't care who is right though, but I'm curious how things work, considering the exposure issues I've seen. So far, the aperture calibration seemed like a plausible excuse, but I'm open to other explanations.

I don't know what kind of evidence would be suitable, but you could try a more constructive approach, at least some more specific circumstances and numbers. Perhaps any docs for the metering sequence somewhere? Unlike with preflashes, events of meter readouts during the sequence should not be obvious to detect from outside.

There obviously are differences among your D300s and my D90, but I guess they are likely to use a similar metering procedure.
I've done some aperture "measurements" myself some time ago:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1030&message=35099206

In figs 1 and 3, the same-exposure combinations should result in the same rhs edge position of the histogram, but they obviously do not. These are made in M mode, with the meter value only read-out. There is an odd thing that the meter value is off-set a notch at widest apertures with the Tamron, even though this meter readout is made with mirror down and lens wide-open (half-press only). So the meter appears to correct for the lack of aperture a bit in A mode, without having to take another meter reading with the aperture stopped-down. I've noticed the same odd behaviour with the 18-200VR, but couldn't see it with the 50/1.8D. But I admit this does not prove there is no second reading and correction yet.

I have the impression that the folks at Tamron are not fully aware of the metering procedure either ;). After service the Tamron does not underexpose generally anymore - only wide-open, where it does not appear to get any more light than stopped down one or two notches. But at (nominal) F/2.8 and F/4 in A mode for portraits it now seems to produces the same brightness as the 50/1.8D at half the shutter time. I've been too lazy to cut&paste histograms, since I'm not sending it to service again. The underexposure in A mode wide-open remains; I assume such thing should get compensated with a longer shutter time under the second reading theory, which does not occur in practice. This is why I find your statement unlikely, as much as you find hers. ...Unless the compensation is limited, and the final exposure is based on both readings with some formula?

I'll try to check if I get the mismatch between the meter readout and the image exif that you mention one of these days. So far I've only noticed such a thing in LV (both with the VF covered or not).
 
I'll try to check if I get the mismatch between the meter readout and the image exif that you mention one of these days. So far I've only noticed such a thing in LV (both with the VF covered or not).
So I did check, A mode at different apertures, the Tamron 60 and the 18-200VR, another soon-to-be-famous white-wall series, and couldn't get one picture that would read a different shutter time captured in the info display than previously shown on the meter. Despite the obvious Tamron's miscalibration of the aperture at the wide end, which should lead to corrections with the second reading at least somewhere. Any possible fault in the procedure, or I shall have to accept that my camera is inferior?[/U]
 
Wow...seems I opened a "Pandoras Box". I will like to first say that all I know is that I am way behind a lot of the guys who post here , especially Marianne which is if I can use the term , " a Monster of knowledge on photography " and sometimes when we know that some one has so much knowledge we tend to take her word as always being correct . Her statemente as usually I do got me thinking on how things work and frankly I hit a huge wall because I have always thought , having cameras a light metering system , that aperture , shutter speed and iso were done in realtime .

The fact that lens do change exposure one from the other at a determine level does make a case for what Marriane says . But as I see it there is another variable that could well be the culprit of this exposure issue between different lens and that could be metering . I have a D90 camara . Ususally shot in manual mode using the light meter scale in the viewfinder .

When I move the camera even slightly I can see in the viewfinder changes it's values , "even with very slight changes" as of an inch or less . Taking into consideration that we live in a dynamic world ever changing constantly it could very well be metering to be the culprit. If the camera takes photos based on a realtime metering aperture miscalibration should not be a problem in exposure between lens , but it is. I really don't know what to think . All I know is that I like photograph a lot . Take care guys.
 
Wow...seems I opened a "Pandoras Box".
Ain't such a big thing, just one of technical details which is completely irrelevant in most cases (if the aperture calibration is OK). Btw the second reading theory seems feasible too and should in fact work better in case of a lousy aperture calibration, the only thing against it I can think of is consistency with the displayed numbers. The RGB exposure sensor seems to have enough DR latitude to work both ways.
 
Name one Macro lens that is not sharp
I did not mean not sharp. I meant some are sharpers. and of course the difference is visible.
At high apertures all lens tend to have high diffraction which makes you loose sharpness , accutance and contrast .
I see by "high aperture" you mean high f-numbers.
Not only that but many lens change their contrast as you change focal lenght.
Yes, it iit always improve until the "sweet spot" is reached. All lens behave that way.
in macro photography (snip) DOF dictates to step down considerably
Okay everybody knows that
Most lens when stepped down to F14 onward loose acutance and sharpness because of diffraction issues.
This affects all lens - good or bad, macro or not macro - evenly
A macro lens has to have the capability to give you good picture quality all the way down to small apertures not normally used in normal photography.
No more no lens than any other lens
Hope I might have explained myself better. Take care.
Yes thank you for taking the time to reply

--
Thierry
 
After everything that has been said my Friend , you can see that most macro lens are very good lens at what they are design to do. Any one of them will give you excellent results. If I had the money I would go with the Nikon 105mm VR but if you are a little strapped for cash going with the Sigma 70mm is not a let down compared with the Nikon .
 
you do realize that Sigma 70 is sharper than the Nikkor? and it focuses more accurately despite lacking HSM motor. It is a very fine piece of lens.
After everything that has been said my Friend , you can see that most macro lens are very good lens at what they are design to do. Any one of them will give you excellent results. If I had the money I would go with the Nikon 105mm VR but if you are a little strapped for cash going with the Sigma 70mm is not a let down compared with the Nikon .
--
Cheers, Reza
 
don't forget the makro-planars from zeiss. especially if color is important to you.
on the other hand they'll do just 1:2 without the extension rings.
 
Very fine lens, many compare itu to the 90 cron APO. But price seems very steep at approx. $1800 vs $700-800 for 105 VR and $400 for Sigma 70.

The zeiss is more a specialty lens. Excellent as a walkaround 100 mm, and occasional close ups. If you want true macro, then Nikkor or Sigma is better.
don't forget the makro-planars from zeiss. especially if color is important to you.
on the other hand they'll do just 1:2 without the extension rings.
--
Cheers, Reza
 
oh and let's not forget the voigtlander apo-lanthar 125/2,5 SL

i have no experience with this lens but it is supposed to be good for color work (apo)
price is different story of course :)
 
you do realize that Sigma 70 is sharper than the Nikkor? and it focuses more accurately despite lacking HSM motor. It is a very fine piece of lens.
After everything that has been said my Friend , you can see that most macro lens are very good lens at what they are design to do. Any one of them will give you excellent results. If I had the money I would go with the Nikon 105mm VR but if you are a little strapped for cash going with the Sigma 70mm is not a let down compared with the Nikon .
--
Cheers, Reza
I do...but those 105mm are precious if you are into bugs and things that crawl and sting... ;)
 
When I purchase a FF camera (Canon 5D MKIII or Nikon D800-both not release yet) I will need a FF macro.
Ahh! You're not looking for a crop-sensor camera to replace your 50D.

I use a 50D for macro. It has a very useful feature called silent mode. Perhaps you use it too. In silent mode, the camera is used in live view and does not drop the mirror or close the shutter prior to exposure. This eliminates the vibration that those actions cause.

I don't know if the (unreleased) cameras you're waiting for will have this. I guess the 5D will and the D800 won't. Anyway, check to see if the camera has this.
--
Leonard Migliore
 
I have Sigma 70mm 2.8 Macro and it is as sharp as Sigma 35mm 1.4 Art in the center and sharper on the corners. I have 3 other sharp lenses (Nikon 135mm DC F2, Nikon 85mm 1.8G and Nikon 50mm 1.8G) , but they are nowhere near these 2 Sigmas in sharpness. I compared all lenses at F5.6 in 3 occasions and results are consistent. Good day!
 

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