How to get K-r to focus in the dark?

I just bought the K-r and so far I love it. This is my first SLR and I am still learning. I like to take "unusual" pictures you might say, and that is why I wanted an slr. I have owned some bridge cameras in the past that allowed me some manual control, but the were not very good at low light. Anyway, I was shooting some test shots tonight to familiarize myself with the K-r and I ran into a problem. I was trying to shoot some shots of a gazebo I built for my wife today and the camera could not focus on it no matter what I did. Now it was dark, but my porch light was on and illuminating it somewhat. The green AF assist light would come on and I could see it clearly in the viewfinder, but the AF motor would just move in and out and then stop without achieving focus. I have used several camera and never had a camera that could not take a picture in the dark while using a flash. I run a wilderness camp and I take a lot of picture after dark of people sitting around campfires and such. This cameras inability to focus in low light worries me. I am hoping that someone here can tell what setting I can modify to fix this problem.

I took two pictures of the gazebo to show what I am talking about. The K-r will not let you take a picture if the AF cannot focus, so I had to over ride it and take the pictures manually without focusing. One picture I took with no flash using high ISO, large aperture and slow shutter speed. The other I took with a flash in auto mode (manual shutter release). The one without the flash turned out pretty good, but the auto mode one turned out blurry because the camera could not focus and I could not see well enough to focus it manually.









Thanks.

Hi J_E,

Firstly, the non-flash of the gazebo is a cracker Secondly, you have
already done pretty much any advice I would offer ... the only thing I
can thing of that might effect the focus capability, dark or otherwise, is
the focus points option. I find, personally, the single focus point (in the
middle) works best for me.

I have the K-r and do a lot of night time street(wanna be news) photography and
on occasion I have to revert to manual focus :O Mind you, nowhere near as
much as with my order cameras

Hope you get it sorted

Cheers,

jack
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It's amazing what one can do when one doesn't know what one is doing

The focus assist light has a close range, it is not helpful when the subject is a bit away from the camera. Plus the focus assist light is low on power. It is not as powerful as when the flash is used for focus assist light, but because of user complaint Pentax removed the ability to use the built in flash as focus light in their newer cameras. The users found it not discrete enough and that it disturbed the subjects.

Also, do not use multi-point AF with focus light because the camera may choose an AF point that is on the edges of the focus light which means it will have harder time focusing. Better to use central AF point for those excercises.

The focus assist light that is built-in in external flashes are more powerful than the built-in one in the K-r. This could be an option if you love taking images in the dark.

--
Take care
Raphael
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If it helps, my K100D which has much worse low light AF than the K-r, can focus in the dark with a Sigma EF-500 flash assist light up to 25-30ft away but it will depend a bit on subject colour and contrast.

The other way is to only use flash and a wideangle lens and stop down a bit, say f8, then everything past a few feet will be in focus if you preset MF to about 7ft away. Experiment with DOF calculators to get a feel for what is possible.
http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/DOF-calculator.htm

Simpulz myfriend

But first summarize the problemz.

The light level is below the minimum of the AF sensor the distance is to great for the AF assist light

Then the solution

Use a torch to illuminate the object then switch the torch off or for effect leave on.





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1. Try faster lenses.
2. Try a shoe-mounted flash with a larger AF assist lamp.

I had a Kr which would NEVER focus properly under any low light (always frontfocus). Had it at service twice to no avail. Pentax service told me in January that they were working on a "software fix" for the Kr to repair the faulty AF on the Krs. Yet this "fix" is still to materialize. In the end, I returned the Kr and got a K7 body as replacement. The K7 is always spot-on and I'm quite happy with it. You might consider the earlier Kx as a replacement for the Kr (has the same low light capabilities as the Kr - better than the K7! - and its AF works just as flawlessly as the K7's).

jungleexplorer said:

I just bought the K-r and so far I love it. This is my first SLR and I am still learning. I like to take "unusual" pictures you might say, and that is why I wanted an slr. I have owned some bridge cameras in the past that allowed me some manual control, but the were not very good at low light. Anyway, I was shooting some test shots tonight to familiarize myself with the K-r and I ran into a problem. I was trying to shoot some shots of a gazebo I built for my wife today and the camera could not focus on it no matter what I did. Now it was dark, but my porch light was on and illuminating it somewhat. The green AF assist light would come on and I could see it clearly in the viewfinder, but the AF motor would just move in and out and then stop without achieving focus. I have used several camera and never had a camera that could not take a picture in the dark while using a flash. I run a wilderness camp and I take a lot of picture after dark of people sitting around campfires and such. This cameras inability to focus in low light worries me. I am hoping that someone here can tell what setting I can modify to fix this problem.

I took two pictures of the gazebo to show what I am talking about. The K-r will not let you take a picture if the AF cannot focus, so I had to over ride it and take the pictures manually without focusing. One picture I took with no flash using high ISO, large aperture and slow shutter speed. The other I took with a flash in auto mode (manual shutter release). The one without the flash turned out pretty good, but the auto mode one turned out blurry because the camera could not focus and I could not see well enough to focus it manually.

jungleexplorer said:

Thanks.

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http://sternbild.zenfolio.com (gallery)

As Andrew said, use a torch. I found a really good torch to use for this purpose is one of the multi-LED torches made for bikes. They are small and light but also powerful.

Thanks for all the advice. I every AF setting I could find and nothing worked. But what from what I can tell from all of your responses is that this is just a problem with the K-r model. This makes me want to cry. I have been researching cameras for over 2 years now trying to find one that will suit my needs and every camera I find in my price range has at least one major defect. What is the deal! Every 99 dollar point and shoot I have ever used or owned can focus in the dark, but this $700 dlsr can't. What is up with that? So now it looks like I will have to spend hundreds of dollars more to get a dslr camera that can do what every budget P&S can do. That is just wrong!

I know I can add external flashes and better lenses to compensate for this cameras weakness, but that defeats my original reason for buying this camera. I am basically looking for an All-in-One camera that has great low light, a good zoom range, and is reasonably light weight. I want a camera that is good enough to take special event photos like weddings (my kids are of that age now) and that I can throw in my camping backpack and take hiking with me up in the mountains. Don't even suggest a megazoom. I tried the fujifilm HS20 and had to go on prozac to deal with the stress. What a piece of junk!

Don't get me wrong here, I hated the HS20 for many reasons, but I love the K-r and that is what is killing me. I really wanted this camera to be the one. But this camera is already almost to big for my camping hiking purposes, and if I have to add even more stuff to the kit it will it will be just to big.

The reason I went with the K-r is because it has the same sensor as the K-x. After comparing many sample shots, I was convinced that the K-r and the K-x were the best low light performers in my price range, especially since I could buy them in a two lens kit (18-55 & 55-300mm) for just a little more then the price of the body alone. This gave me the low light performance and the zoom range I was looking for. Another factor is that the K-x and K-r are pretty small compared to other entry level dslr. The K-r with 18-55mm lens feels about the same as the HS20. The reason I went with the K-r over the K-x is because the K-r shows the active focus point in the viewfinder, a better LCD and HDR mode.

So I have some questions to ask. I hope I can get some good clear answers.

1. Is this focus problem exclusive to the K-r model? What I mean is does the K-x have the same problem?
2. Does the K-x have a HDR mode like the K-r?

3. Are there any other quirks with the K-x like the one I found on the K-r?

Thanks for your help.

One more thing you may not have tried specifically:

-To get best AF performance in low light, make sure your central AF point is placed on a high contrast/edge of your scene. This will help achieve focus.

-You can also try with the flash popped up. It may use it as flash assist. (not sure though, as I always use an offboard flash)

All in all, don't despair yet... if it truly is a firmware issue, then all you may need is an upcoming update.

Which lens are you using by the way ?

--
Steph
http://www.photosvoyagenature.com

Thanks for the encouragement. I really need it. To answer your question I am using the 18-55mm lens that came with the camera. It says Pentax 18-55 SMC DAL on it.

Could you give me some instructions on how to do the things you said? I still learning my way around the K-r. Thanks

falcon_wizard said:

One more thing you may not have tried specifically:

-To get best AF performance in low light, make sure your central AF point is placed on a high contrast/edge of your scene. This will help achieve focus.

-You can also try with the flash popped up. It may use it as flash assist. (not sure though, as I always use an offboard flash)

All in all, don't despair yet... if it truly is a firmware issue, then all you may need is an upcoming update.

Which lens are you using by the way ?

--
Steph
http://www.photosvoyagenature.com

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labnut said:

As Andrew said, use a torch. I found a really good torch to use for this purpose is one of the multi-LED torches made for bikes. They are small and light but also powerful.

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I will give this a try tonight. I hope it works.

Good luck. I wonder if you are not expecting too much.

I did a quick test with my K7. From my porch, which is lit by a 11 W CFL I tried to get a focus on my boundary hedge, some six meters away (it is night time here). No luck, it would not get a focus lock. Then I lit the scene with my bike LED torch and I got focus lock immediately. Next I used the same technique on a point on the hedge about 11 meters away. At first I could not get focus lock, with the torch, until I placed the focus point on a white flower, whereupon it got focus lock immediately.

Now this doesn't faze me. I know the technology has limits and these tests are far from normal conditions.

What Stern is complaining about has nothing zero zilch todo with your issue

Stern's and some others have noted that the kr when achieving lock under tungsten light may appear front focused.

There was a rumour that like the k5 Pentax would issue a firmware fix but htats all it ever been a rumour.

Whether the kr is worse than any-other camera in this regard appear unproven with antagonist on both sides more interested in wining than the truth.

As fro your problem (no lock at all) this is simply your below the light level the AF is designed to operate

Your AF will work from -1 to 18 EV but your biggest issue will be exposure is 1 to 21 ev so the AF should provide a lock in light levels the camera cannot expose for.

As to whether you will hit Sterns Kr bug I have no idea but you haven't hit it yet.

Many millions of people are happily using Kr's maybe they arn't very particular in their results, Or perhaps don't use them under low light, or more likley IMO their expectations are met.

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Your example shows a scene which has an EV value of about -5 which is about 4 stops beyond the capability of the AF system. At this light level the FF issue you have heard about is fairly irrelevant as it is way too dark for the AF system to work.

AF needs light to work and this must come from the scene or be supplied by an AF spotbeam or other external light. The built in flash is really only good for about a couple of metres whereas the spotbeam from an external flash can reach about 7 metres.

--
Steve

http://www.pbase.com/steephill

I just got off the phone with Pentax and they claim there is no lowlight focusing problem and that they are not working on a fix for it. Now what?

steephill said:

Your example shows a scene which has an EV value of about -5 which is about 4 stops beyond the capability of the AF system. At this light level the FF issue you have heard about is fairly irrelevant as it is way too dark for the AF system to work.

AF needs light to work and this must come from the scene or be supplied by an AF spotbeam or other external light. The built in flash is really only good for about a couple of metres whereas the spotbeam from an external flash can reach about 7 metres.

--
Steve

http://www.pbase.com/steephill

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Listen. I am not asking the camera to do anything that any common P&S can't do. So if you think I am stressing the camera beyond it's limitations, then it's limitations are less then a $99 wal-mart special. Let me give you some example pictures to prove my point.

All of these pictures were taken in almost complete darkness with only the flash assist to achieve focus lock. The cameras used were the Sony Mavica CD-500, the DSC-V1 and the Canon SD1100IS. Based on my experience with the K-r last night, I don't think the K-r could have achieved focus in any of these situations, because I tried to focus on the gazebo from less then 5 feet away pointing the AF assist right on the structure and it could not focus lock even though I cold clearly see the structure being illuminated through the viewfinder.

jungleexplorer wrote:

Every 99 dollar point and shoot I have ever used or owned can focus in the dark, but this $700 dlsr can't. What is up with that? So now it looks like I will have to spend hundreds of dollars more to get a dslr camera that can do what every budget P&S can do. That is just wrong!

P&S cameras hardly need to focus as their lenses, at least on the non-long zoom ones, are such a short focal length that their depth of field is massive and it's difficult to get an out of focus shot. DSLRs have much longer FL lenses and consequently have to be precisely focused.

I just read a similar thread on the Nikon D5000 forum by the way!

falcon_wizard said:

-You can also try with the flash popped up. It may use it as flash assist. (not sure > though, as I always use an offboard flash)

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No, the k-r does not use the flash as focus assist beam. It uses a special focus assist beam with green light. This is not as powerful as the flash, but it was choosen because there was too much complaint in this forum about using flash as the focus assist because it wasn't discrete enough. But then, if you have a more discrete focus assist - the thing is that it is not as helpful for the AF system...

--
Take care
Raphael
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Something that helped with the K20D is to use continuous focus, and let the camera select the focal points. You may not get the specific point in focus that you desired, (or you may get lucky), but something in focus is better than nothing. With these settings, I was able to get focus when a Canon shooter I was with could not.

Michael