e-pl2 in the mnts (and epl2 conclusion)

ultimately returned the camera. between RDG and the UI + controls (sorry that wheel also being a 4-way clicker..about every other adjustment i was accidentally spinning the wheel..even with long term use it was going to be a continual frustration) the camera is not a fit for me/has a poor flow (for me). Honestly the latter being bigger issue than RDG.

Needless to say I do not think it is a bad camera, just, for me, my use/setting, shooting flow, not a good match. but at least I confirmed the size (pens/gf/nex) will work excellent for mountaineering/long distance backpacking, travel--this i am happy about.

threw in a few I tried on the art filter dramatic mode. I mean its kind of entertaining but this is the same things i could do with filters in photoshop in 1995. i guess for those wanting such results quickly, with no photoshop access/capability, it is a neat bonus--but to me seems like a bell/whistle/gimmick.

















and dramatic... sure made the snow look bizzaro

Thanks for the photos. BTW, what mountain is that?

We seem to have similar uses in mind. I wondered how the E-PL2's rear wheel would work with gloves, and I'm guessing that may have been part of your problem with it. I occasionally use the 1's in-camera effects, but only after I have several standard shots and want to experiement. Diorama and Pinhole occasionally give me good results, but I don't bother with the rest. I've seen a few appealing Dramatic shots, but most of those images look like HDR Gone Wild to me.

If you can still find one, an E-PL1 might work for you, too. I operate mine with thin gloves without difficulty. No RGD problems to speak of, and the D-pad control might be a better fit for you.





I recently took an E-PL1, 9-18, 20, and 45-200 with me to Grand Canyon. This was my first lengthy backcountry trip with a m43 kit, and I later realized that wasn't the best lens selection. Too often, my companions became skittish when I tried to make them a foreground focal point with the 9-18, or there simply wasn't room to easily frame a shot on some narrow, steep trails with that lens. The 20 was excellent as usual, but I didn't really need it for any low light shots so it could've been left behind. I only used the 45-200 to shoot some dories across the river, but even with the limited number of uses, I think the FL range made it worth the weight.

Next trip, I'll take the 9-18, 14-42 MkI, and 45-200. The kit lens would give the flexibility I wanted in difficult terrain (impossible to zoom with your feet at times), and the longer-than-20mm FL would've allowed more candid trail shots. Also, the kit lens would've been useful for some macro shots of flowers. I'd prefer a faster lens in roughly the same FL range as the kit lens, but until I find something better, I'll take it and leave the 20mm behind. I also need a slightly deeper belt bag so I can keep the 45-200 mounted, because having to change a lens to get everything secure is a PITA.

Please continue to post about your gear selection. I try to keep an eye out for similar uses to see if someone else has found a better way to go about the same tasks as me.
--
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Dont_be_a_dick

Wow! Very beautiful series!
--
cuginoStefano
http://www.pbase.com/cuginostefano

Sounds like a fair assessment for your needs. I have heard people NOT using gloves saying that wheel can be fiddly...I'd imagine it's just a total pain if you're shooting in gloves. While that may not be concern for most users, thats a special consideration you must make while picking a camera for yourself. Good luck on your hunt! Maybe the added external controls of the gf1 would be something worth giving a shot..

As for the art filters- of course its an effect that can be easily replicated in Photoshop or similar programs. What do you expect? Manufacturers throw them in left and right these days, as they appeal to many and don't cost much to put in. I'd say the dramatic tone filter has gotten a suprising amount of positive feedback considering it IS just a "gimmicky filter", but if filters aren't your thing, then these ones wont be either.

Sorry, but what is RGD?

Yes, where were these pics taken - very nice. The snow is weird with the 'Dramatic' filter but I do kind of like the last one.

--
µJoe
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joey_m43/sets

This is Mt. Hood, Oregon. For 4/22 it was a lot colder than I have experienced so late in the winter/in spring.. 8-10 degrees in the upper parts... brr.... this time of year normally 20 and above for low.

453C,

I will keep you posted and possibly send PM if this board allows it, as it is obvious we probably use camera the same way.

cheers folks

If I was a JPEG shooter I would for sure own the EPL-2, I'm tempted to buy one just for that. I like the Panasonic's for RAW development (I own a GF2 right now) but my EP-2 (fell off my car roof...) produced some great JPEGs for me when I owned it and the EPL-2 uses a similar sensor doesn't it?

Some samples;





--
Vern Dewit
Calgary, Alberta Canada
http://www.explor8ion.com
http://verndewit.com/

Nice pics! Went up to Berg lake and Mt. Robson, on the way to doing part of the North Boundary Trail in Jasper a few years ago--beautiful, though we had multiple showers nearly every day, not my favorite for backpacking.

I am pretty sure the sensor is more or less the same, though as mentioned about e-pl2 gives a red dot grid issue with bright light source when lenses are stopped down-which I frequently find myself in situation in the mnts+snow. Additionally I found the UI/controls to not yield a smooth flow (or hope for one with getting use to camera), without gloves, and all the more so even with a thin liner glove. I was also occasionally prone to pushing video button as that is where my thumb is. But I don't think it is a bad camera at all--just not the right fit for me.

Can I ask how you ended up with GF-2... it was the #2 on my list but many things spoke to the caliber of the epl2 IQ and settings depth, along with IBIS..along with lens combo kit/cost.. which is why I went with it. Now I am back to Nex5 or GF-2..

It is certainly helpful to speak with others who shoot in similar outdoor setting where lugging dSLR is not acceptable.. but better than P&S is desired.

Thanks! And yes, I can give my thoughts perfectly on this subject because I just sold my Nex-5 after using it for 6 months in the mountains!

Pros of the NEX-5:

• Great sensor / IQ
• Small / Light
• Great build, carries easily around the neck while climbing / skiing

Cons of the NEX-5:

• Lack of lenses - 18-200 is simply too big / heavy for my uses, even though it's a great lens optically.
• Lack of viewfinder - not a HUGE deal but it's a con.
• Lack of lenses. Did I mention this already?

Pros of the GF-2:

• Small / Light
• Great build, carries easily especially with primes
• Awesome lens selection, especially the 14, 17 (Oly), 20, 45. Also the 100-300mm OIS.

Cons of the GF-2:

• IQ is good but not on par with what the NEX could do with similar glass...

For me it was all about lenses in the end. I really loved the NEX but with only the 16mm and the 18-55mm kit lens it just wasn't going to keep me entertained this summer. I tried skiing with only the 14 and 20mm lenses on the GF2 this past weekend and the results were great! I'm adding a 7-14, 45mm and the 100-300mm to round out the kit.

(I use a Pentax K-5 with primes for my indoor / people shots)

Some shots from this past weekend:





--
Vern Dewit
Calgary, Alberta Canada
http://www.explor8ion.com
http://verndewit.com/

recomend the E-pl1. We hike and ski with it and find the butttons easy to use with thin gloves. I too found the rear control wheel (on the e-p1) completely unusable, even without gloves and would assume the same with the E-pl2. Also, consider a rangefinder legacy lens. The large aperture ring on the front of the lens is very easy to operate with gloves and in A mode only needs to be set once for a porticular lighting condittion. If you get M mount lenses, you can buy a relativley inexpensive film body back up that doesn't rely on batteries at all. On mulit-day hikes this was a good insurance policy.

Tedolph

Plenty of others here are looking for backcountry solutions, so keep posting what works for you. Right now, I'm starting another bag hunt, and I'll post whatever I come up with. You should do the same when you find the right kit for your needs. FWIW, if the OOC JPEGs are to your liking (or if you shoot RAW) and IBIS isn't a dealbreaker, a Panasonic m43 might be just right for you. If you aren't in a hurry, waiting to see what body Olympus is going to introduce might be worthwhile, but I'm not a big fan of waiting around to see what comes of rumors. With Panny pushing hard, I hope Oly gets moving, but I wouldn't wait.

Water- said:

I was also occasionally prone to pushing video button as that is where my thumb is. But I don't think it is a bad camera at all--just not the right fit for me.

Click to expand...

You can assign a different function to that button. I have mine set to MF because I had the same problem as you, and there are other options. I hope the next Oly body has a few more user programable buttons because it really aids control manipulation. I'd prefer buttons to a touchscreen since I like to use controls by feel when possible.
--
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Dont_be_a_dick

453C said:

Water- said:

I was also occasionally prone to pushing video button as that is where my thumb is. But I don't think it is a bad camera at all--just not the right fit for me.

Click to expand...

You can assign a different function to that button. I have mine set to MF because I had the same problem as you, and there are other options. I hope the next Oly body has a few more user programable buttons because it really aids control manipulation. I'd prefer buttons to a touchscreen since I like to use controls by feel when possible.
--
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Dont_be_a_dick

Click to expand...

This is a really big deal for me. I also like to operate the camera by feel, especially when it is at eye level (VF-2). I find that I can initiate the up arrow button with the palm of my hand (gives access to EV compensation, etc.) when the camera is at eye level. I have no idea how you would do this with a touch screen without taking the camera down and switching from VF to LCD view. Can someone from the Panny world explain how you handle that?

Same thing if it is dark- I can do most things by feel with the E-pl1

It is a pretty big deal to me.

Tedolph

tedolf said:

This is a really big deal for me. I also like to operate the camera by feel, especially when it is at eye level (VF-2). I find that I can initiate the up arrow button with the palm of my hand (gives access to EV compensation, etc.) when the camera is at eye level. I have no idea how you would do this with a touch screen without taking the camera down and switching from VF to LCD view. Can someone from the Panny world explain how you handle that?

Same thing if it is dark- I can do most things by feel with the E-pl1

It is a pretty big deal to me.

Click to expand...

I like some features of the Oly's better, but I do prefer the controls the Panasonics offer. At least with the thumb wheel that the GH2 and LX5 sports, first it's in a good position for the thumb. Pressing it in toggles what it will control when turned. For example, if in Av mode pressing it changes the control from shutter to EC.

--
...Bob, NYC

'Well, sometimes the magic works. . . Sometimes, it doesn't.' - Little Big Man

http://www.bobtullis.com

tedolf said:

453C said:

Water- said:

I was also occasionally prone to pushing video button as that is where my thumb is. But I don't think it is a bad camera at all--just not the right fit for me.

Click to expand...

You can assign a different function to that button. I have mine set to MF because I had the same problem as you, and there are other options. I hope the next Oly body has a few more user programable buttons because it really aids control manipulation. I'd prefer buttons to a touchscreen since I like to use controls by feel when possible.

Click to expand...

This is a really big deal for me. I also like to operate the camera by feel, especially when it is at eye level (VF-2). I find that I can initiate the up arrow button with the palm of my hand (gives access to EV compensation, etc.) when the camera is at eye level. I have no idea how you would do this with a touch screen without taking the camera down and switching from VF to LCD view. Can someone from the Panny world explain how you handle that?

Same thing if it is dark- I can do most things by feel with the E-pl1

It is a pretty big deal to me.

Click to expand...

I've discussed this in other threads, especially when a "Pro m43 body" comes up.

Ergonomics (handling) will be a major issue for any m43 body that's a serious contender against larger DSLR bodies with dedicated control buttons. Being able to effortlessly manipulate the controls without taking your eye away from the shot will be crucial to the success of such a camera. It's a shame the m43 lens standard doesn't have controls on-lens like the Samsung NX line. Moving apeture back to a lens ring control seems an obvious way to give direct control, and it's already a standard interface across old and current camera systems.

For those that don't see the importance of this issue, consider that MILC controls are analogous to the early days of automotive controls. 100 years ago, there were wheels, levers, and tillers used to control all sorts of steering configurations. Transmissions had a variety of completely novel shifting mechanisms. Throttle and brake controls were also a crapshoot, and you could forget about standardized illumination and directional lighting.

Today, other than relatively minor differences in controls and instrument locations, any driver can probably drive a modern car with an automatic transmission, and there wouldn't be much thought given to the process. Today, how many people have to actually think about where the controls are located in their cars, or how to operate them? That level of familiarity should be the goal of camera designers, too.

As I spend more time behind my E-PL1, I'm getting familiar with running it from behind the viewfinder, and I find it more enjoyable to use it that way. While a touchscreen interface may have some advantages, I wouldn't want a screen to eliminate actual buttons.
--
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Dont_be_a_dick

Bob Tullis said:

tedolf said:

This is a really big deal for me. I also like to operate the camera by feel, especially when it is at eye level (VF-2). I find that I can initiate the up arrow button with the palm of my hand (gives access to EV compensation, etc.) when the camera is at eye level. I have no idea how you would do this with a touch screen without taking the camera down and switching from VF to LCD view. Can someone from the Panny world explain how you handle that?

Same thing if it is dark- I can do most things by feel with the E-pl1

It is a pretty big deal to me.

Click to expand...

I like some features of the Oly's better, but I do prefer the controls the Panasonics offer. At least with the thumb wheel that the GH2 and LX5 sports, first it's in a good position for the thumb. Pressing it in toggles what it will control when turned. For example, if in Av mode pressing it changes the control from shutter to EC.

--
...Bob, NYC

'Well, sometimes the magic works. . . Sometimes, it doesn't.' - Little Big Man

http://www.bobtullis.com

Click to expand...

Right, the Panny's thumb wheel is really good. It was a nice feature on the GF-1 (but I didn't like the little joystick thnkg at all-too fiddlely). What I am refering to is the GF-2. I know the thub wheel is still there but I don't know to what extent you have to use the touch screen. Can the whole thing be controled with tactile controls or is the tough screen mandatory for some important things.

Tedolph

mention how much I like your shots. In some shots, the sky looks like you used a polarizer (varying brightness across the scene). If so, how do you like the results it gave you? Would a Sky light or UV filter have been enough?

Tedolph

tedolf said:

Bob Tullis said:

tedolf said:

This is a really big deal for me. I also like to operate the camera by feel, especially when it is at eye level (VF-2). I find that I can initiate the up arrow button with the palm of my hand (gives access to EV compensation, etc.) when the camera is at eye level. I have no idea how you would do this with a touch screen without taking the camera down and switching from VF to LCD view. Can someone from the Panny world explain how you handle that?

Same thing if it is dark- I can do most things by feel with the E-pl1

It is a pretty big deal to me.

Click to expand...

I like some features of the Oly's better, but I do prefer the controls the Panasonics offer. At least with the thumb wheel that the GH2 and LX5 sports, first it's in a good position for the thumb. Pressing it in toggles what it will control when turned. For example, if in Av mode pressing it changes the control from shutter to EC.

Click to expand...

Right, the Panny's thumb wheel is really good. It was a nice feature on the GF-1 (but I didn't like the little joystick thnkg at all-too fiddlely). What I am refering to is the GF-2. I know the thub wheel is still there but I don't know to what extent you have to use the touch screen. Can the whole thing be controled with tactile controls or is the tough screen mandatory for some important things.

Click to expand...

Buttons were shed with the touchscreen:
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/PanasonicDMCGF2/page4.asp

"The GF2's simplified control layout signals a camera whose operational ethos is different from any previous G-series model. Crucially, the loss of those external dials and buttons means that the touchscreen now becomes the de facto method for accessing some of the controls - including exposure mode and focus point selection, and the Quick Menu. You can still deactivate most of its functions and rely on the buttons instead, but this slows things down and slightly reduces the amount of control available.

We've seen some pretty awful touchscreen implementations on cameras in the past, but the GF2 illustrates how to do it properly, with an interface that's been thoughtfully designed with large, well-spaced buttons. The touch screen is, like the G2's, resistive (i.e. pressure sensitive) rather then capacitative, so tends to work best when pressed with a fingernail (as opposed to a fingertip, iPhone-style). Once you understand this, and get a feel for how the screen responds, it becomes a fairly fluid and intuitive way to change settings.

The touch screen won't be for everyone, of course. As a control paradigm it rather falls apart if you prefer to shoot using an accessory EVF, but fortunately you can then customize everything to work off the physical controls. But in this regard the GF2's loss of buttons - most notably AEL/AFL - makes it a slightly less capable camera than its predecessor."

Sounds like Panasonic did a good job of it, but that's still not the interface I'd prefer unless the "customize everything to work off the physical controls" bit works out satisfactorily.
--
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Dont_be_a_dick

I can tell you that the GF2 works just fine with big ski gloves on and as long as you're an aperture shooter (which most landscape guys are), you'll be fine. With the NEX-5 everyone was on the "terrible interface" band wagon too. I ignored all the hype and found that it worked just fine.

The touchscreen is actually rather handy for functions like review / zoom, scrolling pictures and selective focus.
--
Vern Dewit
Calgary, Alberta Canada
http://www.explor8ion.com
http://verndewit.com/

Vern, I was hoping you'd weigh in on the control issue, especially with gloved hands. You're the only person I can remember that has gloved experience with that range of cameras.

Panasonic seems to be making good strides on creating a familiar interface in their m43 cameras, and I hope Olympus takes some cues from them. Multiple, programmable buttons in easily accessed, standardized locations will be key to making small bodies work well.
--
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Dont_be_a_dick

I used my GF1 with gloves (in sub freezing temperatures), and the Nokton 25mm, it was fine for main functions (wheel, shutter, aperture, focus). I had to preset the WB though as the "control pad" buttons are too close to each other when wearing gloves. AE/AF Lock, Review, Display and Aperture buttons are spaced enough so they can be accessed too. I can see how going smaller would be a problem though, it's really on the limit...