F-stop

...you need some sort of explanation to accompany your arithmetic above. Your calculations give the aperture diameter, which, of course, is the relevant quantity for a given AOV (angle-of-view) in terms of both the DOF (depth-of-field) and the total light projected on the sensor (for a given shutter speed).
The OP asked only about exposure. An explanation is needed, but on optical geometry. The things you mentioned are completely irrelevant to exposure.
Hmm, here's the OP (bold emphasis mine):

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1018&message=38250332

There is a few things i just cannon understand about aperature. I hardly belive that my sx100is can have larger aperature than 18-55 nikon. I understand that it is f/2.8, so what i want to know: on wide open canon f/2.8 if the focal lenght is 6mm does it mean that diameter of pupil will be 6/2.8 = 2.14mm, or do i need to calculate its 35mm focal lenght, 30/2.8= 10.7mm? But that means that on 300 it will be 300/4.3= 69mm, which is imposible. I really need some explanation on that.
If you had read the entire question, you would have known that the OP was simply asking whether the diameter should be calculated with the actual focal length or the 35mm equiv. focal length. The most direct answer is "use the actual focal length", but somehow you see the need to answer with a 100 page document that doesn't address the question at all.
...to disregard what was asked, and lash out against anyone explaining what is going on and what relevance it has, is a bit tiring. But, well, it's what you do.
This is exactly why you're a fanatic...because you truly believe that your 100-pages of practically incomprehensible writings actually answers the OP's question...IT DOESN'T! Nowhere on that web page is there anything resembling, "...is calculated using the actual focal length of the lens, not the 35mm equivalent focal length."

.
 
...you need some sort of explanation to accompany your arithmetic above. Your calculations give the aperture diameter, which, of course, is the relevant quantity for a given AOV (angle-of-view) in terms of both the DOF (depth-of-field) and the total light projected on the sensor (for a given shutter speed).
The OP asked only about exposure. An explanation is needed, but on optical geometry. The things you mentioned are completely irrelevant to exposure.
Hmm, here's the OP (bold emphasis mine):

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1018&message=38250332

There is a few things i just cannon understand about aperature. I hardly belive that my sx100is can have larger aperature than 18-55 nikon. I understand that it is f/2.8, so what i want to know: on wide open canon f/2.8 if the focal lenght is 6mm does it mean that diameter of pupil will be 6/2.8 = 2.14mm, or do i need to calculate its 35mm focal lenght, 30/2.8= 10.7mm? But that means that on 300 it will be 300/4.3= 69mm, which is imposible. I really need some explanation on that.
If you had read the entire question...
I did. You said in your post above that "the OP asked only about exposure", when, in fact, he didn't mention or ask about exposure at all.
...you would have known that the OP was simply asking whether the diameter should be calculated with the actual focal length or the 35mm equiv. focal length. The most direct answer is "use the actual focal length"...
Which is what dherzstein said, and it was his post that I replied to with additional clarification on why aperture diameter, not f-ratio, matters when comparing different formats.
...but somehow you see the need to answer with a 100 page document that doesn't address the question at all.
No, I gave an explanation with what I types. The link was to an explanation as to what connect ISO had to noise, in case there were questions on that point, since some people feel that noise is a result of the ISO, as opposed to a result of the amount of light falling on the sensor.
 
Graystar wrote:

Just compare F-numbers and don't worry about the actual physical sizes of things.
Does it mean that with my sx100is which has f/2.8 on 6mm will let more light in then 18-55 f/3.5 on 18mm?
Yes it does. Aperture is aperture on any size camera system. The aperture opening for f/2.8 is relative to the focal length. So f3.5 at 18mm is actually much wider than f2.8 at 6mm.

And it's the mini size of digicam sensors and lenses that allow them to be "fast". There were P&S 35mm zoom cameras with say a 35mm to 120mm lens, yet that lens widest aperture range was usually say f/4.4-f/13 or very slow at full zoom of 120 mm.
 
Now i wish i could mount my sx100 lens on that d3100. this is all much more complicated than i first thought it was. now i actually cant see the point of buying a dslr, and simply buy s30is which is 24-840mm f/2.7 - f/5.8 and a bit cheaper then 3100.
The lens on the SX30IS is not 24-840 / 2.7-5.8 -- it is 4.3-150.5 / 2.7-5.8 lens, and will produce photos equivalent to a 24-840 / 15-31 on FF or a 16-560 / 10-22 on 1.5x.

By "equivalent to" I mean will have the same AOV and same aperture diameter. The same AOV and aperture diameter results in the same DOF and diffraction softening.

If you also use the same shutter speed (despite differences in ISO between the formats), then it also means it will put the same amount of light on the sensor. The same amount of light on the sensor will result in the same noise for equally efficient sensors.
 
Thank you all.

Graystar wrote:

Just compare F-numbers and don't worry about the actual physical sizes of things.
Bad information.
Does it mean that with my sx100is which has f/2.8 on 6mm will let more light in then 18-55 f/3.5 on 18mm?
No, it does not. The reason, of course, is that the aperture diameter is much larger at 18mm f/3.5 (5.1mm) compared to 6mm f/2.8 (2.1mm).

A slight niggle is that 6mm on the SX100IS has the same AOV as 24mm on 1.5x. Thus, the difference in aperture diameters for the same AOV is 6.9mm vs 2.1mm, so 10 times as much light will fall on the 1.5x sensor than the SX100IS sensor for the same shutter speed.

Let's give a specific example. Assume you take a shot of a scene at 6mm f/2.8 1/100 ISO 80 with the SX100IS. If you took a pic of the same scene from the same position at 24mm f/11 1/100 ISO 1250 on a 1.5x camera, both systems would have the same AOV and DOF, and the same amount of light would fall on each of the sensors, and any differences in noise would be due to the differences in sensor efficiencies.

The reason that DSLRs have less noise is because they either use a larger aperture to get more light on the sensor (with a concomitantly more shallow DOF), and/or use a lower shutter speed since the larger sensor can absorb more light before oversaturating.

However, if you need the same DOF and shutter speed, then all systems put the same amount of light on the sensor, and differences in noise are entirely due to differences in sensor efficiencies.

Contrary to popular belief, the sensors in compacts are usually every bit as efficient as those in DSLRs, and often more efficient. Furthermore, the higher ISO used by the larger sensor system is at best a secondary effect, as a higher ISO, for some sensors, simply serves to make the sensor more efficient. More on that point here:

h ttp: www.josephjamesphotography.com/equivalence/#iso
I'm actually an civil engineer, and i like to know technical stuff and mathematics on all things.
Read all about it here:

h ttp: www.josephjamesphotography.com/equivalence/

DPR has recently banned the link due to all the controversy that this causes (as you can see by Graystar's posts). People think in terms of exposure ( density of light on the sensor) as opposed to the total amount of light that falls on the sensor, which leads to a poor understanding of what's actually going on.
for example:
AF Zoom-NIKKOR
80-200mm f/2.8D ED

so on 80mm aperature will be 28.5mm and on 200mm will be 71mm. does it mean that it lets more light in on full zoom and i need faster shutter speed or lower iso?
At 200mm, you collect light from less of the scene due to the more narrow AOV, but this is exactly cancelled out by the larger aperture. This point is discussed in detail here:

h ttp: www.josephjamesphotography.com/equivalence/#fratio
 
If you had read the entire question...
I did. You said in your post above that "the OP asked only about exposure", when, in fact, he didn't mention or ask about exposure at all.
Yes...exposure was his second question. His first was on aperture and everything I said still applies.
The most direct answer is "use the actual focal length"...
Which is what dherzstein said, and it was his post that I replied to with additional clarification on why aperture diameter, not f-ratio, matters when comparing different formats.
Right...you said, "...you need some sort of explanation to accompany your arithmetic above." But it didn't need the explanation you dove into.
...but somehow you see the need to answer with a 100 page document that doesn't address the question at all.
No, I gave an explanation with what I types. The link was to an explanation as to what connect ISO had to noise, in case there were questions on that point, since some people feel that noise is a result of the ISO, as opposed to a result of the amount of light falling on the sensor.
And how does ISO and noise relate to a simple question on aperture math? It doesn't. Now do you see what I mean?

.
 
If you had read the entire question...
I did. You said in your post above that "the OP asked only about exposure", when, in fact, he didn't mention or ask about exposure at all.
Yes...exposure was his second question. His first was on aperture and everything I said still applies.
The most direct answer is "use the actual focal length"...
Which is what dherzstein said, and it was his post that I replied to with additional clarification on why aperture diameter, not f-ratio, matters when comparing different formats.
Right...you said, "...you need some sort of explanation to accompany your arithmetic above." But it didn't need the explanation you dove into.
...but somehow you see the need to answer with a 100 page document that doesn't address the question at all.
No, I gave an explanation with what I types. The link was to an explanation as to what connect ISO had to noise, in case there were questions on that point, since some people feel that noise is a result of the ISO, as opposed to a result of the amount of light falling on the sensor.
And how does ISO and noise relate to a simple question on aperture math? It doesn't. Now do you see what I mean?
All those points and more addressed downthread:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1018&message=38258708

Knock yourself out screaming about how it's all irrelevant to what the OP asked, when, in fact, it all directly answers the questions he had.
 
DPR has recently banned the link due to all the controversy that this causes (as you can see by Graystar's posts). People think in terms of exposure ( density of light on the sensor) as opposed to the total amount of light that falls on the sensor, which leads to a poor understanding of what's actually going on.
Actually I think it has more to do with the fact that you litter the forum with irrelevant posts trying to promote your vision, don't understand what you're talking about, and respond to people with comments like...
That's a load of malarchy.
Again, you are full of it.
I suspect it won't be long before you're banned again.

.
 
DPR has recently banned the link due to all the controversy that this causes (as you can see by Graystar's posts). People think in terms of exposure ( density of light on the sensor) as opposed to the total amount of light that falls on the sensor, which leads to a poor understanding of what's actually going on.
Actually I think it has more to do with the fact that you litter the forum with irrelevant posts trying to promote your vision, don't understand what you're talking about, and respond to people with comments like...
That's a load of malarchy.
Again, you are full of it.
I suspect it won't be long before you're banned again.
Since you have nothing of value to contribure, perhaps the OP would be interested to see some proof of what I'm saying:

http://ezstrobesphoto.blogspot.com/2009/01/nikon-d300-vs-d700.html

http://ezstrobesphoto.blogspot.com/2009/01/more-d300-and-d700-equivalent-images_25.html

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1032&message=16107908

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1029&message=21440105

The last link is perhaps the most illustrative, as it compared a compact (S3IS) to a FF DSLR (5D).

Ta.
 
Guys, a just wanted to know if

1/100, f/4, iso 200 will produce the same image on every camera on earth in terms of light. so sensor size and focal length has nothing to do with it. if i'm wrong now i'll stay away from dslr and go for s95, p500 or sx30.
 
Guys, a just wanted to know if

1/100, f/4, iso 200 will produce the same image on every camera on earth in terms of light.
No, it will not. It will result in the same density of light (exposure), but not the same total amount of light, where Total Light = Exposure x Sensor Area.

However, the density of light is irrelevant, except inasmuch as it is a component of the total amount of light, since the noise in a photo is determined by the total amount of light and sensor efficiency.
so sensor size and focal length has nothing to do with it.
They have quite a bit to do with it, actually. The focal length and sensor size determine the AOV. The aperture diameter and shutter speed determine how much light falls on the sensor.

A larger sensor can absorb more light than a smaller sensor (for a given efficiency), but requires a longer shutter speed and/or larger aperture diameter to get that additional light.
if i'm wrong now i'll stay away from dslr and go for s95, p500 or sx30.
If you're constrained to shooting the same DOF and shutter speed, then DSLRs don't have any advantage over a compact in terms of total amount of light on the sensor.

As I said earlier, only when you use a more shallow DOF and/or longer shutter speed with a DSLR do you get more light on the sensor.

And since aperture diameters of even the fastest and largest sensor compacts is no larger than the aperture diameter as lenses for 1.5x DSLRs at f/5.6 (and usually much higher still) for the same AOV, all DSLRs will have a light-gathering advantage over a compact regardless of what lens is on it.
 
Your answers have all been very helpful and i thank you all alot.

So, bottom line, if i understood everything well is that with same FOV on both cameras, assuming a wide open lens and same ISO i can do faster shutter speed on d3100 over sx100 because it has larger sensor and captures more light.
18mm at f/3.5 beats 6mm at f/2.8.
No. That's wrong.

Exposure doesn't care about sensor size. If you point 10 different cameras of different lenses and sensor sizes (throw some film in there too) toward an evenly illuminated gray wall, and set them all to the same aperture and same ISO, then all their meters should indicate the same shutter speed. Also, if you throw a light meter in there and set it to the same ISO as the cameras, it will indicate the same aperture and shutter as the cameras. Exposure is based on luminance levels only.
You just love to confuse me man :). i'm buying a camera tomorrow, so, they are in the same price level, what would you recomend me: d3100 with a kit lens, or those prosumers. (i actualy dont need that much of a zoom, im no paparazzi, but its fun to have).
 
Guys, a just wanted to know if

1/100, f/4, iso 200 will produce the same image on every camera on earth in terms of light. so sensor size and focal length has nothing to do with it. if i'm wrong now i'll stay away from dslr and go for s95, p500 or sx30.
"in terms of light" is a slippery criteria...so is "same image." Presuming that all the cameras are also framing the same scene, then they will all produce images of the same scene that appear to be the same brightness.

But when you look closely, the images from the smaller sensored cameras will have more noise. The images from the smaller sensors will also have less background blur, less small-scale contrast, and won't be as sharp as images from larger sensors.

.
 
i'm buying a camera tomorrow, so, they are in the same price level, what would you recomend me: d3100 with a kit lens, or those prosumers. (i actualy dont need that much of a zoom, im no paparazzi, but its fun to have).
The D3100 + kit lens will definitely give you the ability to put more light on the sensor than the compact, and thus give you less noise.

With the DSLR, the DOF will be a lot more shallow than a compact unless you stop down. A more shallow DOF, by definition, will render the portions of the scene outside the DOF less sharply. For some photographers, such as myself, this is a major bonus (and, in fact, why I shoot FF with fast primes). For others, it's an annoying problem, and causes them to wonder why pics with DSLRs are less sharp than pics they got with compacts.

If this is a problem, you can put the DSLR in Av mode at f/8, use Auto-ISO, and it will perform at least as well as a compact would.

Another point to be aware of is that, if you're shooting jpgs as opposed to RAW, the default jpg settings in a DSLR are much more "tame" than how they are set in a compact. Might want to put some effort into finding out which jpg settings work best for you in the DSLR.

Still, the smaller size of the compact is a bonus not to be overlooked, but the AF of the DSLR is likely much better, and the ability to get more light on the sensor for less noise, along with the option for a more shallow DOF, are also significant bonuses.

For me, the DSLR is the better option, hands down. But, for another, the IQ of a compact is "good enough", and the convenience overrides the advantages of a DSLR.
 
Your answers have all been very helpful and i thank you all alot.

So, bottom line, if i understood everything well is that with same FOV on both cameras, assuming a wide open lens and same ISO i can do faster shutter speed on d3100 over sx100 because it has larger sensor and captures more light.
18mm at f/3.5 beats 6mm at f/2.8.
No. That's wrong.

Exposure doesn't care about sensor size. If you point 10 different cameras of different lenses and sensor sizes (throw some film in there too) toward an evenly illuminated gray wall, and set them all to the same aperture and same ISO, then all their meters should indicate the same shutter speed. Also, if you throw a light meter in there and set it to the same ISO as the cameras, it will indicate the same aperture and shutter as the cameras. Exposure is based on luminance levels only.
You just love to confuse me man :). i'm buying a camera tomorrow, so, they are in the same price level, what would you recomend me: d3100 with a kit lens, or those prosumers. (i actualy dont need that much of a zoom, im no paparazzi, but its fun to have).
It’s simple...bigger sensors are better. Pricing is also simple...bigger sensors are more expensive. To get the equivalent focal range of a modern super-zoom camera (which usually has a macro function as well) you have to spend a good bit of money on lenses. The 18-55mm kit lens of the D3100 provides a good deal of photographic capability. However, you’ll eventually want to buy more lenses, and those lenses will be 200-500 bucks each at least. It all depends on how serious you are about photography.

But even if you’re not so serious and just want better pictures than you can get from a small-sensored camera, a D3100 with kit lens and a flash unit will produce better results than a compact (and even the built-in flash works well too.)

Also remember that a DSLR is a large piece of equipment that needs its own bag. A Canon S95 will fit in your pocket and can be with you anywhere you go. That’s also something to consider.

.
 
perhaps the OP would be interested to see some proof of what I'm saying:
The only thing these series demonstate is the pointlessness of using the same shutter speed when it's not necessary, and of using a smaller aperture when it's not necessary. All you're demonstating is that when you cripple a large sensored camera such that the total light is the same as a small sensored camera, you get the same noise. Who cares...people who want compact-camera image quality from their expensive DSLRs?? It's an exercise with no value, as it tells us nothing useful.

.
 
Guys, a just wanted to know if

1/100, f/4, iso 200 will produce the same image on every camera on earth in terms of light. so sensor size and focal length has nothing to do with it. if i'm wrong now i'll stay away from dslr and go for s95, p500 or sx30.
Apologies to all (to avoid flames) but the guys here tend to spiral into obsession when they discuss f/no and equivalence. There are truths and there are also assumptions and after a while a simple question does not have a simple answer.
  • Step aside from nitpicking at exact terms and exactness - because usually the Original Poster isn't so exact anyway and uses a generalisation conceptually.
  • Ivanaker says he is a Civil Eng. Let us take a crude analogy - a Civil Eng I sectioned beam vs a solid beam. It is quite common to use I beams to save weight in construction instead of solid beams (also affects cost etc...). If you calculate the forces well, the I beam can perform an equivalent job to a solid beam. However, in certain circumstances, you very well know that the I beam is hollow except for the I and if you want to break it in a certain way, you can break it with less force than a solid beam.
  • Now back to our f/no
1/100, f/4, iso 200 are three "standards" or "reference points". For the purposes of exposure and purely exposure, which is what they primarily reference, they are the same on any camera otherwise we would go beserk with an external exposure meter and four cameras - they have to be the same.

However, if you have an Canon S95 vs a Nikon D3s - they must be heckuva different cameras (they are - just hold them, Doh!) and they must produce different visual looking images unless you sit in a Reality Distortion Field.

However, if you use 1/100, f/4, iso 200 on both cameras, the resulting image should have similar brightness.

--



Ananda
http://anandasim.blogspot.com
https://sites.google.com/site/asphotokb

'Enjoy Diversity - Live a Little'
 
However, if you have an Canon S95 vs a Nikon D3s - they must be heckuva different cameras (they are - just hold them, Doh!) and they must produce different visual looking images unless you sit in a Reality Distortion Field.
Yes, some photographers are satisfied with the knowledge that the S95 and D3s are "heckuva different cameras".

But who knows, perhaps Ivanaker wants to invest the effort to come to a deeper understanding of the differences.
 
It would be really good if you would stop poisoning the well with your obsessive reiteration of the "equivalence" thing. It is NOT helpful. It is confusing, and destructive of understanding.

Please, do us all a favour, and stop it. Thank you.
--
Regards,
Baz

"Ahh... But the thing is, they were not just ORDINARY time travellers!"
 
It is NOT helpful. It is confusing, and destructive of understanding.

Please, do us all a favour, and stop it. Thank you.
That's probably also what Copernicus was told when he tried to convince people of his heliocentric model... ;-)
 

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