Lenses: how do they make them?

John Ellis62065

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I have been wondering how it is they make these lenses that are in digicams--I read that the best 35mm lenses resolve to about 5 microns (a red blood cell is about 7) and yet, the 4/3 system will need to resolve to about one micron. This is in aerospace territory and it looks like the cost would be enormous unless they have some very high tech to do it. Getting the QC for this seems equally near impossible. I have tried to find explanations on how it is done but can't. Anyone know where to look?
--
John Ellis
 
I don't know how lenses are made, but I have a question. How did you come up with the need to resolve 1 micron? I have a 5 MP Minolta Dimage D7i. The maximum resolution is 2560 x 1920 pixels. If I assume a CCD of around 1/2 inch (it may be a little smaller), the diameter of a single sensor on the CCD would be .5" 2560 which is roughly 195 microns. Resolving any finer than that would not buy anything. I'll concede that a lens designer wouldn't want to cut it that close. So if the lens were able to resolve 1/10 of the diameter of the individual pixels on the CCD, it would still only need to resolve 19 microns. Am I missing something here?

In the old days, lenses were made by grinding them by machine and, I expect, making many checks along the way to be sure the surface was absolutely perfect with no aberations. Today, certainly, the lens grinding must be computer controlled. A plastic lense in a cheap camera could be molded and then polished, but would not be the sort of quality you are talking about.

Dewdrop
I have been wondering how it is they make these lenses that are in
digicams--I read that the best 35mm lenses resolve to about 5
microns (a red blood cell is about 7) and yet, the 4/3 system will
need to resolve to about one micron. This is in aerospace
territory and it looks like the cost would be enormous unless they
have some very high tech to do it. Getting the QC for this seems
equally near impossible. I have tried to find explanations on how
it is done but can't. Anyone know where to look?
--
John Ellis
 
If I assume a CCD of around 1/2 inch (it may be a little smaller),
the diameter of a single sensor on the CCD would be .5" 2560 which
is roughly 195 microns. Resolving any finer than that would not
buy anything.
Your math is seriously flawed. 0.5 inch * 25.4 mm/inch = 12.7 mm. Divide that by 2560 to get the pixel size, and multiply by 1000 to translate millimeters into microns, and you get a 4.96 micron pixel size.

The 4/3 sensor is 17.6 mm horizontally. If it's 5 megapixels, that translates to a 6.8 micron pixel size. So 1 micron seems a good margin to leave room for future sensor upgrades.
 
Well, it was not my math, just what I read on a site where an Oly person was talking into much depth about all this, quoting all sorts of complicated math. Personally I don't know a micron from a millimeter, don't claim to, but I'll see if I can backtrack to that article. It was on one of the link sites on DPreview. I am very sure he said ONE micron, tho.
If I assume a CCD of around 1/2 inch (it may be a little smaller),
the diameter of a single sensor on the CCD would be .5" 2560 which
is roughly 195 microns. Resolving any finer than that would not
buy anything.
Your math is seriously flawed. 0.5 inch * 25.4 mm/inch = 12.7 mm.
Divide that by 2560 to get the pixel size, and multiply by 1000 to
translate millimeters into microns, and you get a 4.96 micron pixel
size.

The 4/3 sensor is 17.6 mm horizontally. If it's 5 megapixels, that
translates to a 6.8 micron pixel size. So 1 micron seems a good
margin to leave room for future sensor upgrades.
--
John Ellis
 
Your math is seriously flawed. 0.5 inch * 25.4 mm/inch = 12.7 mm.
Divide that by 2560 to get the pixel size, and multiply by 1000 to
translate millimeters into microns, and you get a 4.96 micron pixel
size.
My math is okay, it's definitions I'm apparently having a problem with. I thought that a micron was 1 millionth of an inch, not a millionth of a meter. So what's the term for a millionth of an inch?

Dewdrop
 
The term for millionth of an inch is the obvious one, microinch. Of course with metric becoming a preferred unit of measure for all things great or small (but not for normal-sized, ordinary things here in the USA) you will see measurements in microns (micrometers) much more often. What is interesting to me is that micrometer is a perfectly good term, why is there the term 'micron'? Nanometers, picometers, femtometers, and attometers have no such preferred term.
Your math is seriously flawed. 0.5 inch * 25.4 mm/inch = 12.7 mm.
Divide that by 2560 to get the pixel size, and multiply by 1000 to
translate millimeters into microns, and you get a 4.96 micron pixel
size.
My math is okay, it's definitions I'm apparently having a problem
with. I thought that a micron was 1 millionth of an inch, not a
millionth of a meter. So what's the term for a millionth of an
inch?

Dewdrop
 
Granting the alternate use of micrometer, I'd suggest it's shorthand for a frequently used unit (just like "mils" for milli-inches).

In other words, jargon.
...., why is there the term 'micron'? Nanometers,
picometers, femtometers, and attometers have no such preferred term.
There is an engineering/scientific measuring device called a
micrometer
( http://www.physics.smu.edu/~scalise/apparatus/micrometer/ ). I
suspect that micron is used to prevent confusion.
 
Someone may get round to answering your question John ........ I hope.
Then I will be able to read the answer too!

TomB
Okay, since I said something stupid - confusing microns with microinches, I can at least do some research. Here's a start:

http://www.tamron.com/technology/lens_making.htm

This article describes the process, but does say how they achieve 1 micron resolving power. I'll keep looking.

Dewdrop
 
Hey, guys, you got a lot of good info here. I was piqued by all this by an Imaging resource article of Oct.3. Sorry I don't know how to add links here, but it was called "Four Thirds Redux-Correcting the misinformation". It was by Michael Thompson. It got me to wondering how Oly and Kodak, let alone Sigma, Tamron, and all the others will ever make lenses for the 4/3 system if resolving power has to be vastly more than the current best 35 mm lenses. At one or two microns, we will have to watch even rubbing them to hard to clean dirt and dust of of them--maybe not only a glass barrier to the sensor, but to the lens, too! But mainly, I am wondering how we will be able to afford them unless it is just that they will just need a much smaller amount of glass to process. The other advantage is that they are theoretically going to be much brighter, as well. I guess anything is possible with high tech, but this may explain the delay in obtaining the tooling and hi-tech machinery to even make the lenses.
I have been wondering how it is they make these lenses that are in
digicams--
Apparently, resolving power isn't as important as contrast ration.
Here's the article:
http://www.contaxinfo2.com/pdf_files/Zeiss-Resolving_power_and_contrast.pdf

This artical still doesn't answer the question, but it adds
something to the understaing of lens and good images.

I'll keep looking.

Dewdrop
--
John Ellis
 
Sorry I don't know
how to add links here, but it was called "Four Thirds
Redux-Correcting the misinformation". It was by Michael Thompson.
John,

It's easy to add links. Just select the URL in the address area of your browser. Then right click on it and click copy. Then when you post a message, put the mouse cursor where you want the link, right click and click paste. Of course, you can always just write the address on a slip of paper and then type it in place, but, for some links, that's a pain. Don't worry about the fact that it looks like ordinary text. When you post it, it becomes a link.

I must appologize for some of my careless posts. I reread every post at least twice and yet, after posting, when I look at them, I see very confusing errors. I guess I tend to read what is supposed to be there and not what actually is there. In this case, my last post's subject should have read "point of view" and the post before that should have said "...but does not say..." The word 'not' is important. Too bad there isn't some way to edit a post after the fact. I only hope you didn't go searching for the explanation of achieving 1 micron resolution. It isn't there.

Dewdrop
 
I don't know--in the tool and die industry, a micrometer is used to measure thickness, and mine are all english, not metric (LOL). Seriously, micron is 1000th of a millimeter, or one millionth of a meter, but in many industries it has been replaced with micrometer to be consistent with all the other meter measurements, except, I think, in those industries (some of the machine trades) that actively use micrometers (pronounced myKRAHmitur) to measure things--using micron for the actual unit of length is less confusing then, perhaps?

We referred to millionth of an inch as simply "mil" or "mils" but that might have been colloquial to our shop and industry.
Your math is seriously flawed. 0.5 inch * 25.4 mm/inch = 12.7 mm.
Divide that by 2560 to get the pixel size, and multiply by 1000 to
translate millimeters into microns, and you get a 4.96 micron pixel
size.
My math is okay, it's definitions I'm apparently having a problem
with. I thought that a micron was 1 millionth of an inch, not a
millionth of a meter. So what's the term for a millionth of an
inch?

Dewdrop
 
As important as the shape of the individual elements are, the materials those lens elements are made from is essential, particularly when it comes to chromatic aberation.

I don't have alot of lenses, but I do have alot of telescope eyepieces--some of the simplest have a 4 element design--two groups (seperated by air) of two lenses (typically different shapes and materials) bonded together--and some have as many as 13 elements, with some of the elements made from glass that has been doped with pretty exotic materials such as Lanthanum and Flourite.

A lens labelled "apochromatic" is pretty much guarunteed to have one or more exotic elements in it, as they are used to correct chromatic abberation, and exotic materials add significantly to the cost of the lens as they are usually very rare materials and often make the resulting glass much more difficult to machine--making it softer, or more brittle, etc.

In general, a quality lens will have the non-exotic elements made from ED glass, or extra-low dispersion glass. This is simply glass that is "more transparent" than normal--all glass scatters some light going through it, ED glass just scatters less.

Additionally, there is the matter of controlling reflection--every lens element in the camera is a source of reflection, and light that is reflected doesn't make it through the lens resulting in a loss of resolving ability and contrast. This is controlled by coating the lenses, usually with magnesium flouride. If you shine a light into your lens and see reflections that are blue or magenta, it is probably a single coating of magnesium flouride. If the reflections are faint and dark green, it has multiple thin coats of magnesium flouride. A fully multi-coated lens (meaning all the lens-air surfaces throughout the lens have multi-coatings) will let through more than 99% of the light that enters it, whereas an uncoated lens can loose perhaps 10% or more of that light through reflections.

One last difference between a cheap lens and a quality lens--a quality lens will have the interior of the barrel coated with a non-reflective paint, and may even include baffles outside of the direct light path to minimize any possible chance of stray reflections within the lens. In a newtonian telescope, the simple act of painting the inside of the tube black and adding a few baffles will make a small, but noticable, improvement in contrast at the eyepiece.

Here is a website that has many articles on designing and making telescopes (including grinding lenses) some of which may be insightful to you:

http://www.atmsite.org/author.html

Here is a link to a site that has a freeware program called "Newt" used to design the optical path for a newtonian telescope--although not directly related, it is about optics, at least, and fun to fiddle with besides:

http://home.att.net/~dale.keller/atm/newtonians/newtsoft/newtsoft.htm

Hope this helps some!
I have been wondering how it is they make these lenses that are in
digicams--I read that the best 35mm lenses resolve to about 5
microns (a red blood cell is about 7) and yet, the 4/3 system will
need to resolve to about one micron. This is in aerospace
territory and it looks like the cost would be enormous unless they
have some very high tech to do it. Getting the QC for this seems
equally near impossible. I have tried to find explanations on how
it is done but can't. Anyone know where to look?
--
John Ellis
 
I live in a metric country and "mils" refer to millilitres.

RIchard
In other words, jargon.
...., why is there the term 'micron'? Nanometers,
picometers, femtometers, and attometers have no such preferred term.
There is an engineering/scientific measuring device called a
micrometer
( http://www.physics.smu.edu/~scalise/apparatus/micrometer/ ). I
suspect that micron is used to prevent confusion.
 

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