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is 7HI noise really an issue?

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tm255

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the 7hi brings features to the table that really appeal to me -- 28-200 zoom, manual zoom and focus rings, 5MP, etc. and that says a lot, coming from a long time nikon fan!

but the final arbiter is image quality, and phil's review makes it sound like this could be a major problem with the 7hi relative to the sony 717 and nikon 5700. of course nothing is perfect and these cameras don't have some of the appeal of the 7hi.

i'm wondering if 7hi owners are finding the noise problematic, or is it a relatively minor thing?

thanks!
 
tm255 said:
i'm wondering if 7hi owners are finding the noise problematic, or
is it a relatively minor thing?
Click to expand...
Ummmmmmm let's see now.

Are there howls of despair all over the forum on this issue?

Nope.

Is the D7 family perfect in this respect?

Nope.

Most of seem to manage to live with it. And those who can't don't
have much solice unless thy can afford a DSLR with a bigger(CMOS)
CCD plus the lenses to go with it.

--
---------------
Andrew.
 
tm255 said:
the 7hi brings features to the table that really appeal to me --
28-200 zoom, manual zoom and focus rings, 5MP, etc. and that says
a lot, coming from a long time nikon fan!

but the final arbiter is image quality, and phil's review makes it
sound like this could be a major problem with the 7hi relative to
the sony 717 and nikon 5700. of course nothing is perfect and
these cameras don't have some of the appeal of the 7hi.

i'm wondering if 7hi owners are finding the noise problematic, or
is it a relatively minor thing?

thanks!
Click to expand...
hey,

i've had my 7hi for a month or a couple of months- still learning as we go. great camera, just has a big learning curve!

as for noise, check out my link. i want to learn with this camera how to take sports/action shots, and so far it's hit and miss with clarity and noise (it's me, not the camera, as i parouse other's shots on galleries on pbase). as for the noise, that's also a factor from higher ISO i presume... i'm a newbie looking for advice.

anyone who wants to take a look at my gallery and critique (check out the efix settings), i'm all ears and eyes... many thanks.

http://www.pbase.com/image/7224492
 
Noise is not a problem when the camera is used at ISO 100.

While noise is visible to varying degrees when images are viewed at 100% on screen, photos are seldom viewed that way. When the photo is resampled to reduce it for a web page or printed at 260 - 300 dpi.

See my D7Hi photos at http://super.nova.org/D7Hi

Chuck Gardner
tm255 said:
the 7hi brings features to the table that really appeal to me --
28-200 zoom, manual zoom and focus rings, 5MP, etc. and that says
a lot, coming from a long time nikon fan!

but the final arbiter is image quality, and phil's review makes it
sound like this could be a major problem with the 7hi relative to
the sony 717 and nikon 5700. of course nothing is perfect and
these cameras don't have some of the appeal of the 7hi.

i'm wondering if 7hi owners are finding the noise problematic, or
is it a relatively minor thing?

thanks!
Click to expand...
--
////////////////////////////////////////////////////
http://super.nova.org * http://www.cyberbayan.org
////////////////////////////////////////////////////
 
Chuck Gardner said:
While noise is visible to varying degrees when images are viewed at
100% on screen, photos are seldom viewed that way. When the photo
is resampled to reduce it for a web page or printed at 260 - 300
dpi.

See my D7Hi photos at http://super.nova.org/D7Hi

Chuck Gardner
tm255 said:
the 7hi brings features to the table that really appeal to me --
28-200 zoom, manual zoom and focus rings, 5MP, etc. and that says
a lot, coming from a long time nikon fan!

but the final arbiter is image quality, and phil's review makes it
sound like this could be a major problem with the 7hi relative to
the sony 717 and nikon 5700. of course nothing is perfect and
these cameras don't have some of the appeal of the 7hi.

i'm wondering if 7hi owners are finding the noise problematic, or
is it a relatively minor thing?

thanks!
Click to expand...
--
////////////////////////////////////////////////////
http://super.nova.org * http://www.cyberbayan.org
////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Click to expand...
Chuck,

while your photos are of the still life (absolutely phenominal at that), what is advice on sports/live action? i'd like to get sideline shots of tailbacks bursting through the line and a batter taking a healthy cut at a fastball.

to admit, i've yet to take a lesson, which i am searching for the appropriate class. but any advice on the fly?

thanks,
vince
 
valongi said:
tm255 said:
the 7hi brings features to the table that really appeal to me --
28-200 zoom, manual zoom and focus rings, 5MP, etc. and that says
a lot, coming from a long time nikon fan!

but the final arbiter is image quality, and phil's review makes it
sound like this could be a major problem with the 7hi relative to
the sony 717 and nikon 5700. of course nothing is perfect and
these cameras don't have some of the appeal of the 7hi.

i'm wondering if 7hi owners are finding the noise problematic, or
is it a relatively minor thing?

thanks!
Click to expand...
hey,

i've had my 7hi for a month or a couple of months- still learning
as we go. great camera, just has a big learning curve!

as for noise, check out my link. i want to learn with this camera
how to take sports/action shots, and so far it's hit and miss with
clarity and noise (it's me, not the camera, as i parouse other's
shots on galleries on pbase). as for the noise, that's also a
factor from higher ISO i presume... i'm a newbie looking for advice.

anyone who wants to take a look at my gallery and critique (check
out the efix settings), i'm all ears and eyes... many thanks.

http://www.pbase.com/image/7224492
Click to expand...
I believe to get shots using a camera in this class you would vbe advised to pre-focus and wait for the action to come to you, as the AF is not really up to the job in low-light. I think most people also use a monopod.

As far as ISO goes, some people argue that you can obtain better results by leaving the ISO at 100, shooting in RAW and underexposing then forcing the exposure in Photoshop. It's pretty advanced stuff for me, but it might be worth your while getting involved if that is your primary area of interest. For a discussion on the matter, see:
http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/thread?forumid=151930&messageid=1031437434

Personally, on the occasions when I had to shoot action in low-light I would probably prefer to use a film camera, and keep the D7Hi for the many areas where it shines.
Regards,
--
DaveMart
 
tm255 said:
the 7hi brings features to the table that really appeal to me --
28-200 zoom, manual zoom and focus rings, 5MP, etc. and that says
a lot, coming from a long time nikon fan!

but the final arbiter is image quality, and phil's review makes it
sound like this could be a major problem with the 7hi relative to
the sony 717 and nikon 5700. of course nothing is perfect and
these cameras don't have some of the appeal of the 7hi.

i'm wondering if 7hi owners are finding the noise problematic, or
is it a relatively minor thing?

thanks!
Click to expand...
For a discussion oif the noise issue see this post and the thread which surrounds it.
http://www.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1024&message=3764237
Regards,
--
DaveMart
 
andrew

thanks for your opinion. when i did a search i found some posts indicating dissatisfaction with the noise, but i don't have a handle on the degree of dissatisfaction (which is what i'm trying to now gauge). as in, "it is a slight concern but i'd definitely buy the camera again" as opposed to "it bugs me and i wish i had bought a 717 or 5700."

maybe that is how i should have phrased the question originally.
Andrew Cruickshank said:
tm255 said:
i'm wondering if 7hi owners are finding the noise problematic, or
is it a relatively minor thing?
Click to expand...
Ummmmmmm let's see now.

Are there howls of despair all over the forum on this issue?

Nope.

Is the D7 family perfect in this respect?

Nope.

Most of seem to manage to live with it. And those who can't don't
have much solice unless thy can afford a DSLR with a bigger(CMOS)
CCD plus the lenses to go with it.

--
---------------
Andrew.
Click to expand...
 
tm255 said:
great thread! thanks! that is very helpful.
tm255 said:
tm255 said:
thanks!
Click to expand...
For a discussion oif the noise issue see this post and the thread
which surrounds it.
http://www.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1024&message=3764237
Regards,
--
DaveMart
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
P.S. If you want my personal opinion noise is only an issue at low light for fast action shots where you have to use a high ISO.

I expect to have hassles from this class of digital camera in those very demanding circumstances.
Regards,
--
DaveMart
 
I've owned my 7Hi for about 6 weeks now..."Noise" is only a problem in low light shots, the same as most other digital cameras
tm255 said:
the 7hi brings features to the table that really appeal to me --
28-200 zoom, manual zoom and focus rings, 5MP, etc. and that says
a lot, coming from a long time nikon fan!

but the final arbiter is image quality, and phil's review makes it
sound like this could be a major problem with the 7hi relative to
the sony 717 and nikon 5700. of course nothing is perfect and
these cameras don't have some of the appeal of the 7hi.

i'm wondering if 7hi owners are finding the noise problematic, or
is it a relatively minor thing?

thanks!
Click to expand...
 
Download full size images taken by the 7Hi and print them out in the sizes you would normally print. See if the quality of the image meets your approval, if so buy the camera, if not do the same with images from other digicams you are considering.

Pbase Supporter
 
SteveZ said:
I've owned my 7Hi for about 6 weeks now..."Noise" is only a problem
in low light shots, the same as most other digital cameras
Click to expand...
However, if you are using an external ( I use the 5600) flash, noise is not an issue at ISO 100 and 200, is acceptable at ISO 400 and at ISO 800 is better than I used to get at ISO 400 with the on-board flash. That's right out of the camera with no post processing. Using a noise reduction program such as Neat Image or Deluxe Toolbox, I'm sure all ISO's with an external flash would produce useable shots.

In daylight (sun or cloud), no noise at ISO 100, 200 or 400 to speak of. Take a look at the sample gallery in Phil's review. I don't see any noise in any of those photos.

Bottom line, noise is not an issue with this camera!!
 
tm255 wrote:
[snip]
tm255 said:
i'm wondering if 7hi owners are finding the noise problematic, or
is it a relatively minor thing?
Click to expand...
No, it isn't. Just make a search on it on this forum, and you'll see.

This is a dead horse, and I refuse to flog it any more. Going to bed now.

Petteri
--
http://www.seittipaja.fi/index/
 
David Martin said:
valongi said:
tm255 said:
the 7hi brings features to the table that really appeal to me --
28-200 zoom, manual zoom and focus rings, 5MP, etc. and that says
a lot, coming from a long time nikon fan!

but the final arbiter is image quality, and phil's review makes it
sound like this could be a major problem with the 7hi relative to
the sony 717 and nikon 5700. of course nothing is perfect and
these cameras don't have some of the appeal of the 7hi.

i'm wondering if 7hi owners are finding the noise problematic, or
is it a relatively minor thing?

thanks!
Click to expand...
hey,

i've had my 7hi for a month or a couple of months- still learning
as we go. great camera, just has a big learning curve!

as for noise, check out my link. i want to learn with this camera
how to take sports/action shots, and so far it's hit and miss with
clarity and noise (it's me, not the camera, as i parouse other's
shots on galleries on pbase). as for the noise, that's also a
factor from higher ISO i presume... i'm a newbie looking for advice.

anyone who wants to take a look at my gallery and critique (check
out the efix settings), i'm all ears and eyes... many thanks.

http://www.pbase.com/image/7224492
Click to expand...
I believe to get shots using a camera in this class you would vbe
advised to pre-focus and wait for the action to come to you, as the
AF is not really up to the job in low-light. I think most people
also use a monopod.
As far as ISO goes, some people argue that you can obtain better
results by leaving the ISO at 100, shooting in RAW and
underexposing then forcing the exposure in Photoshop. It's pretty
advanced stuff for me, but it might be worth your while getting
involved if that is your primary area of interest. For a discussion
on the matter, see:
http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/thread?forumid=151930&messageid=1031437434
Personally, on the occasions when I had to shoot action in
low-light I would probably prefer to use a film camera, and keep
the D7Hi for the many areas where it shines.
Regards,
--
DaveMart
Click to expand...
Just re-discovered this thread on shooting at high ISO.
http://www.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1024&page=1&message=1448862
See if it helps.
--
DaveMart
 
Vince,

The best advice for action shots is to use manual focus -- focus on where you think the action will be -- and get as close as possible. Unfortunately a 200mm lens just isn't long enough for close-ups of baseball or football.

I had a look at your pbase football photos and downloaded one and did a quick and dirty edit in Photoshop. See:

http://super.nova.org/samples/Before.jpg
and
http://super.nova.org/samples/After.jpg

Before file (your original from pbase) was first adjusted with levels to darken the shadow detail a bit (it was grayed out on my calibrated monitor), brighten the highlights a bit, and open up the mid-tones.

Next it was processed with the Digital Deluxe De-noise action (normal mode) followed by hi-ISO grain mode. This is a PS action I found on the net.

Finally I applied unsharp masking: Amt = 500% Radius = .2 Thresh = 0, followed by Edit > Fade USM (Lumminosity - Opacity 80%)

If you are not familar with Photoshop and the above may be gibberish. But it illustrates how post-processing of digital images can vastly improve them.Here is some loss of sharpness, but most of the noise is eliminated. Its a skill worth learning if you want to get the most out of your new camera.

BTW - I notice you shot at 1/1000th. Have you tried shooting slower at lower ISOs?

Chuck Gardner
valongi said:
Chuck,

while your photos are of the still life (absolutely phenominal at
that), what is advice on sports/live action? i'd like to get
sideline shots of tailbacks bursting through the line and a batter
taking a healthy cut at a fastball.

to admit, i've yet to take a lesson, which i am searching for the
appropriate class. but any advice on the fly?

thanks,
vince
Click to expand...
--
////////////////////////////////////////////////////
http://super.nova.org * http://www.cyberbayan.org
////////////////////////////////////////////////////
 
Chuck Gardner said:
Vince,

The best advice for action shots is to use manual focus -- focus on
where you think the action will be -- and get as close as possible.
Unfortunately a 200mm lens just isn't long enough for close-ups of
baseball or football.

I had a look at your pbase football photos and downloaded one and
did a quick and dirty edit in Photoshop. See:

http://super.nova.org/samples/Before.jpg
and
http://super.nova.org/samples/After.jpg

Before file (your original from pbase) was first adjusted with
levels to darken the shadow detail a bit (it was grayed out on my
calibrated monitor), brighten the highlights a bit, and open up the
mid-tones.

Next it was processed with the Digital Deluxe De-noise action
(normal mode) followed by hi-ISO grain mode. This is a PS action I
found on the net.

Finally I applied unsharp masking: Amt = 500% Radius = .2 Thresh =
0, followed by Edit > Fade USM (Lumminosity - Opacity 80%)

If you are not familar with Photoshop and the above may be
gibberish. But it illustrates how post-processing of digital
images can vastly improve them.Here is some loss of sharpness, but
most of the noise is eliminated. Its a skill worth learning if you
want to get the most out of your new camera.

BTW - I notice you shot at 1/1000th. Have you tried shooting slower
at lower ISOs?
Click to expand...
Thanks, Chuck. I dabble ever so slightly with PS. I'm really trying to get the rudimentary skills down pat before i venture off into the more advanced arena of digital image manipulation... that's stage 4 for me, while i'm still in stage 1!!!

i've got a ton of respect and hold the posters here in high regard for your respective advice and experience. thanks a ton, i'll be around here reading and taking notes.

Vince
Chuck Gardner said:
Chuck Gardner
Chuck Gardner said:
Chuck,

while your photos are of the still life (absolutely phenominal at
that), what is advice on sports/live action? i'd like to get
sideline shots of tailbacks bursting through the line and a batter
taking a healthy cut at a fastball.

to admit, i've yet to take a lesson, which i am searching for the
appropriate class. but any advice on the fly?

thanks,
vince
Click to expand...
--
////////////////////////////////////////////////////
http://super.nova.org * http://www.cyberbayan.org
////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Click to expand...
 
Chuck Gardner said:
Next it was processed with the Digital Deluxe De-noise action
(normal mode) followed by hi-ISO grain mode. This is a PS action I
found on the net.
Click to expand...
I like the Digital Deluxe action set and use it extensively.

While its general De-noise action works rather well for most images, the hi-iso grain one requires one more step in postprocessing. That is, it tends to soften the details, which is most noticeable in the light areas of the image.

Fortunately, these are usually exactly the areas where the noise is least noticeable or objectionable. So I do thus: put the "before hi-iso noise removal" image on bottom layer, the "after" one on top layer and change the blending options of the latter so that it would only affect rather dark areas. Usually it's possible to find the position of the sliders where the best of both worlds is achieved - retaining both sharpness (where it's critical) and denoising (where it provides the maximum benefit).
 
Have you managed to get these high ISO tricks/methods to work for you? I noticed in the Network 54 thread (which was interesting--thanks for posting the link) that you weren't able to get Russell's method to work in DIVU/Photoshop. And I didn't see any samples for Bryan's tips in the dpreview thread. I'm interested the high ISO capabilities of the 7i, but they have to be workable, of course.
David Martin said:
David Martin said:
valongi said:
tm255 said:
the 7hi brings features to the table that really appeal to me --
28-200 zoom, manual zoom and focus rings, 5MP, etc. and that says
a lot, coming from a long time nikon fan!

but the final arbiter is image quality, and phil's review makes it
sound like this could be a major problem with the 7hi relative to
the sony 717 and nikon 5700. of course nothing is perfect and
these cameras don't have some of the appeal of the 7hi.

i'm wondering if 7hi owners are finding the noise problematic, or
is it a relatively minor thing?

thanks!
Click to expand...
hey,

i've had my 7hi for a month or a couple of months- still learning
as we go. great camera, just has a big learning curve!

as for noise, check out my link. i want to learn with this camera
how to take sports/action shots, and so far it's hit and miss with
clarity and noise (it's me, not the camera, as i parouse other's
shots on galleries on pbase). as for the noise, that's also a
factor from higher ISO i presume... i'm a newbie looking for advice.

anyone who wants to take a look at my gallery and critique (check
out the efix settings), i'm all ears and eyes... many thanks.

http://www.pbase.com/image/7224492
Click to expand...
I believe to get shots using a camera in this class you would vbe
advised to pre-focus and wait for the action to come to you, as the
AF is not really up to the job in low-light. I think most people
also use a monopod.
As far as ISO goes, some people argue that you can obtain better
results by leaving the ISO at 100, shooting in RAW and
underexposing then forcing the exposure in Photoshop. It's pretty
advanced stuff for me, but it might be worth your while getting
involved if that is your primary area of interest. For a discussion
on the matter, see:
http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/thread?forumid=151930&messageid=1031437434
Personally, on the occasions when I had to shoot action in
low-light I would probably prefer to use a film camera, and keep
the D7Hi for the many areas where it shines.
Regards,
--
DaveMart
Click to expand...
Just re-discovered this thread on shooting at high ISO.
http://www.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1024&page=1&message=1448862
See if it helps.
--
DaveMart
Click to expand...
 
Hi,

Is noise and issue… Yes & no.

If you are going to reduce the image from 2560x1920 down to 800x600 then no, noise is not an issue… you’re really not going to see an overly dramatic difference between ISO 100 and ISO 800… if you reduce the photo that much.

ISO 100 (shot in the dark, reduced down to 800x600)



ISO 800 (shot in the dark, reduced down to 800x600)



HOWEVER, (notice the big “however”) if you want to crop the image or there is a lot of blue sky… that’s when noise quickly becomes an issue.

If you have a photo with a lot of blue sky and you don’t want to reduce it in size… or you have a cool shot of an animal at the zoo and you want to zoom in (crop) the photo or double the size of the image… you’ll see noise.

Compare the Dimage 7i’s (five-mega-pixel CDC) to the Fuji s602’s (three-point-three-mega-pixel super CDC), look at the noise levels in the blue sky

You can see more noise or more graininess or as little Jasmine call’s it “dots” in the Dimage photo.

If you really want to see “creaminess” and nearly no noise at all… check out the 6 mega pixel Fuji S2 (granted we’re not exactly comparing “apples with apples”, as the Fuji is double the cost and a true SLR but, you get the idea.)

Fuji s602



Minolta Dimage 7i



Fuji S2 SLR digital


tm255 said:
the 7hi brings features to the table that really appeal to me --
28-200 zoom, manual zoom and focus rings, 5MP, etc. and that says
a lot, coming from a long time nikon fan!

but the final arbiter is image quality, and phil's review makes it
sound like this could be a major problem with the 7hi relative to
the sony 717 and nikon 5700. of course nothing is perfect and
these cameras don't have some of the appeal of the 7hi.

i'm wondering if 7hi owners are finding the noise problematic, or
is it a relatively minor thing?

thanks!
Click to expand...
 
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