Auto WB question?

Juli Valley

Veteran Member
Messages
54,437
Reaction score
30
Location
US
I was taking some shots in incandescent light a few days ago with my 50mm lens without a flash. They were very warm indeed, but I didn't see much if any improvement changing the WB to incandescent. I also took some in fluorescent lighting which really looked strange on the monitor when the WB was set for fluorescent. My question is do most of you use AWB most of the time or are you constantly changing to the specific modes?
--
http://www.pbase.com/julivalley/galleries
http://www.photosig.com/viewuser.php?id=19579
Canon D-60, C-2100UZ, C-3040Z.
Juli

 
Juli

I have always been impressed with Canon's P setting and accurate auto metering which lets me get on with composing and taking the picture.

However, having the ability to change the WB has led me to check it out. I took some pictures of the same indoor setting, lit with a mix of daylight (although, not much) and normal indoor lighting. The AWB pictures were quite warm. On the tungsten WB setting, they were less warm, but still warm and IMHO a bit more realistsic. I noticed the difference.

It's great being able to do this from picture to picture and I guess you can get whatever feeling you want into the picture. I will also be a bit more careful about relying on auto everything now.

But I guess when push comes to shove, and in the heat of the moment, so to speak, I revert back to AWB.

Calvin
I was taking some shots in incandescent light a few days ago with
my 50mm lens without a flash. They were very warm indeed, but I
didn't see much if any improvement changing the WB to incandescent.
I also took some in fluorescent lighting which really looked
strange on the monitor when the WB was set for fluorescent. My
question is do most of you use AWB most of the time or are you
constantly changing to the specific modes?
--
http://www.pbase.com/julivalley/galleries
http://www.photosig.com/viewuser.php?id=19579
Canon D-60, C-2100UZ, C-3040Z.
Juli

 
I've just had the D-60 for about a month. I will continue to experiment. However, I seldom use Program mode.
 
rather poor, so I used an expo-disc for CWB most of the time.

http://www.expodisc.com

Now that I'm using a 1D, I use it a lot less(the 1D AWB is FAR more useable than the D30/D60 AWB)but it is still useful in indoor mixed lighting conditions.
€"John
 
Thanks for that link. It looks very interesting.
in RAW mode, the expo-disc can give you a great additional WB option. I shoot a frame at the beginning of a shoot through the expo & save it in camera as the custom WB.

I then shoot using the AWB in RAW mode. When I convert the RAW files in Yarc, I now have four different WB options(custom, picked, pre-set & as shot)

-John
 
Hi Juli,

I have found the AWB setting to be pretty unreliable. If you use it you need to be sure that the circle in the focus screen is pretty neutral colored or it will fool the AWB circuit. I always shoot raw, so I can change it afterwards, but I try to set it to the current conditions so I don't have to.

Jack

--
http://www.pbase.com/joneill
 
Hi Juli,
I have found the AWB setting to be pretty unreliable. If you use it
you need to be sure that the circle in the focus screen is pretty
neutral colored or it will fool the AWB circuit. I always shoot
raw, so I can change it afterwards, but I try to set it to the
current conditions so I don't have to.

Jack

--
http://www.pbase.com/joneill
Believe Me! Try Custom White Balance ( with 18% gray card or white card)
You will see D60 could produce great color that you never know in AWB mode.

Justin.
 
shooting everything in the same direction/light, isn't it? If you're outdoors moving around it won't work, or so I presume. Enlighten me if I'm wrong.

billtoo
Thanks for that link. It looks very interesting.
in RAW mode, the expo-disc can give you a great additional WB
option. I shoot a frame at the beginning of a shoot through the
expo & save it in camera as the custom WB.

I then shoot using the AWB in RAW mode. When I convert the RAW
files in Yarc, I now have four different WB options(custom, picked,
pre-set & as shot)

-John
--
http://www.pbase.com/billtoo
 
Hi Juli,
I have found the AWB setting to be pretty unreliable.
AWB in my 1D is a lot better than my old D60 was, I still like the oprion of a grey reference image from either a grey card or an expo-disc.

Although a Kodak grey card works fine(I have three of them), I find an expo-disc is a lot more convenient to carry & actually use.

-Joihn
 
shooting everything in the same direction/light, isn't it? If
you're outdoors moving around it won't work, or so I presume.
Enlighten me if I'm wrong.
That's basically true, if you move a lot or the light changes drastically you need to shoot a new image to use for the following shots.

-John
 
I've shot in AWB only, but I will give CWB a try. I got an impression that there is no difference in image quality whether I do in camera CWB or AWB, then adjust WB during post processing with a frame of reference (a grey card or expo-disc). Right? One might think doing in camera CWB would produce a better image, if and only if WB somehow affects the exposure value at the moment the shutter clicks. I do not have a clear understanding of the WB processing. Anyone cared to explain? Another point I am more than confused is D60 manual recommends using a plain white paper for white balance basis,,, not a grey card or a expo-disc. Why is this discrepany in the usage of white balance basis from the D60 manual and this forum?
Hi Juli,
I have found the AWB setting to be pretty unreliable.
AWB in my 1D is a lot better than my old D60 was, I still like the
oprion of a grey reference image from either a grey card or an
expo-disc.

Although a Kodak grey card works fine(I have three of them), I find
an expo-disc is a lot more convenient to carry & actually use.

-Joihn
--
Ann
 
Th gray-world algorithm is a common method for Auto-White-Balance determination. The idea is that all of the values of an image average out to a single neutral value. Normally, the green channel is considered "boss" and is the pivot point around which the blue and red are balanced by way of offsets.

I used to use a grey card until I tried a test using a Macbeth 24-tile test chart. I now use a white card.
The difference can be seen here...

http://home.attbi.com/~ajpacheco/wb_test.htm

I expose the card to ensure it comes out white with RGB values greater than 200. I don't point the camera at it and then use the in-camera meter reading, which will try to turn the white card into a 12% grey card. I want the high values.
Hi Juli,
I have found the AWB setting to be pretty unreliable.
AWB in my 1D is a lot better than my old D60 was, I still like the
oprion of a grey reference image from either a grey card or an
expo-disc.

Although a Kodak grey card works fine(I have three of them), I find
an expo-disc is a lot more convenient to carry & actually use.

-Joihn
--
Ann
 
I've looked at your site. Quite impressive. I am not familiar with the gray-word algorithm. Which tile represents white from your graph? Does each RGB value have to land close in value on the graph in order to represent as being a good WB? Secondly, how do you make sure the RGB values are greater than 200 in a shoot? Would you mind explaining techniques you use shooting a white card as WB basis? Do you shoot in manual, aperture priority, shutter speed priority...? Do you use a LCD screen to judge white as being a true white? Do you open up the camera exposure more than what the built in meter indicates? Come to think of it, shooting a white or gray does not make much difference (difference of 6%, 18% less 12%) if you use a built in meter. Doesn't it?
I used to use a grey card until I tried a test using a Macbeth
24-tile test chart. I now use a white card.
The difference can be seen here...

http://home.attbi.com/~ajpacheco/wb_test.htm

I expose the card to ensure it comes out white with RGB values
greater than 200. I don't point the camera at it and then use the
in-camera meter reading, which will try to turn the white card into
a 12% grey card. I want the high values.
Hi Juli,
I have found the AWB setting to be pretty unreliable.
AWB in my 1D is a lot better than my old D60 was, I still like the
oprion of a grey reference image from either a grey card or an
expo-disc.

Although a Kodak grey card works fine(I have three of them), I find
an expo-disc is a lot more convenient to carry & actually use.

-Joihn
--
Ann
--
Ann
 
The grey-world algorithm simply assumes that averaging all colors in an image results in a somewhat neutral value. Neutral simply means that Red =Green=Blue (or very close) and doesn't imply any specific value. The amount that your image varies from this premise determines the offset which is then used to mathematically "correct" the image data. In digital cameras, the green channel is usually used as a pivot point around which the red & blue channel data are modified. I believe Canon uses this method, but I'm NOT positive about that. There is also a white-patch method which is based upon maximum reflectance points.

Regardless...You are correct, good balance is when all three channels overlap as close as possible.
http://home.attbi.com/~ajpacheco/wb_test.htm

The graph's x-axis represents the six neutral tiles on the Gretag-Macbeth ColorChecker chart. Tile #19 is bright white and tile #24 is very black. There's about a five-stop difference between these extremes.

The y-axis is the RGB values read from Photoshop's Info palette.

For example, when I balanced on tile #19, the RGB values were very close to each other, at around 240 (0-256 scale). Using tile #22, which is virtually the same as an 18% grey card, the Red & Blue channels were starting to fall off. I tried this in a number of various lighting scenarios and had the same results.

Now is that a significant deviation?

Probably not for everyday shooting, but I'm currently looking into doing some camera profiling and white-balance is very critical in that regard.

How do I make sure the RGB values are greater than 200 in a shoot?

1)The grey card I use has a white reverse which has a 95% relectance (.05 density) just like the white tile (#19) on the Macbeth chart.

2) I usually have my camera's meter set to partial metering mode, a 9.5% area in the center of the viewfinder...I make sure the card covers that area.

3) I try to set the card so it won't be affected by reflected colors of any close objects.

4) I quickly focus on the card's edge, shift to the center, dial in an exposure compensation of + 2 stops, and make the exposure.

This will usually place the values up around 200+ with my camera/meter combination. You can also meter the card without compensation, make a note of the exposure, shift to manual mode, and add two or more stops to the exposure.

The idea is to get values that are around > 200 but not over 250 or so.

A quick look at your camera's histogram (info button) will show if you have any blinking areas (over exposed).

You can then use this image for in-camera custom white balance or perform the operation later using the conversion software of your choice.
I use BreezeBrowser but any Canon-based application will work fine.

BTW, I'm talking about processed images when I refer to these values, not the unprocessed linear data.

Canon's instructions seem to imply that you should expose the white target using the meter's results, which will produce an image more like a mid-grey. On this part I disagree.

Here's a sample of the chart's neutral tiles, first with auto-white-balance from MY camera...



And here with custom-white-balance applied...



You need to establish your own method. Whatever is easier for you.
 
Most of my outdoor shots use 77mm lenses. Can I use a 77 to 72 stepdown ring? Alternately, can I change lenses after shooting the expo disk picture?
 
They claim you can just hold the 72mm in front of the center of your lens to take the shot for setting the CWB.
 

Keyboard shortcuts

Back
Top