DIGIC V

The next EOS & PowerShot processor

It has been a long time since we spoke about or saw an updated DIGIC processor in a Canon Camera. It seems DIGIC IV has been around for a long time, 2008 to be exact.

I was told today that DIGIC V has been in development for at least 4 years. A lot has changed during its development because of the explosive success of the 5D Mark II and HD video.

Features of the next DIGIC Processor

■Still and video noise reduction that will be industry revolutionary (I like that word)
■The most throughput on the market
■Dynamic range improvements, unknown to what extent
■New video codec. RAW video is unknown, but the throughput will attainable
■New liveview AF abilities, unknown whether that will affect video AF
■New “creative” tools for new DSLR and compact features

http://www.canonrumors.com/

Thanks for that update.

We often forget, when we are comparing models between Canon and Nikon, or Pentax and Sony, etc., that the programming determines so much of the camera's capabilities and IQ. It's so far beyond where buttons are situated, what lens is mounted, or what mode is engaged!

If Canon was to come off with half the things you mention, coupled with in-camera HDR tools, it would revolutionize the DSLR market.

We'll see! And I'll be waiting. . .

mailman88 said:

The next EOS & PowerShot processor

It has been a long time since we spoke about or saw an updated DIGIC processor in a Canon Camera. It seems DIGIC IV has been around for a long time, 2008 to be exact.

I was told today that DIGIC V has been in development for at least 4 years. A lot has changed during its development because of the explosive success of the 5D Mark II and HD video.

Features of the next DIGIC Processor

■Still and video noise reduction that will be industry revolutionary (I like that word)
■The most throughput on the market
■Dynamic range improvements, unknown to what extent
■New video codec. RAW video is unknown, but the throughput will attainable
■New liveview AF abilities, unknown whether that will affect video AF
■New “creative” tools for new DSLR and compact features

http://www.canonrumors.com/

Click to expand...

The DIGIC is simply a processor. Actually simply an ARM processor applications processor with image processing co-processors, most probably one of Texas Instruments Da Vinci series of application processors. Going through your list, those features are software or, if you like, firmware, not features of the processor. It is hard to see how a digital processor can improve dynamic range. It's too late in the imaging chain for that.
--
Bob

canon 5D mark III and the 7D II will get the DIGIC V i think...

do you think the canon 7D II will get 2 of DIGIC V?

mailman88 said:

The next EOS & PowerShot processor

It has been a long time since we spoke about or saw an updated DIGIC processor in a Canon Camera. It seems DIGIC IV has been around for a long time, 2008 to be exact.

I was told today that DIGIC V has been in development for at least 4 years. A lot has changed during its development because of the explosive success of the 5D Mark II and HD video.

Features of the next DIGIC Processor

■Still and video noise reduction that will be industry revolutionary (I like that word)
■The most throughput on the market
■Dynamic range improvements, unknown to what extent
■New video codec. RAW video is unknown, but the throughput will attainable
■New liveview AF abilities, unknown whether that will affect video AF
■New “creative” tools for new DSLR and compact features

http://www.canonrumors.com/

Click to expand...

bobn2 said:

The DIGIC is simply a processor. Actually simply an ARM processor applications processor with image processing co-processors, most probably one of Texas Instruments Da Vinci series of application processors. Going through your list, those features are software or, if you like, firmware, not features of the processor. It is hard to see how a digital processor can improve dynamic range. It's too late in the imaging chain for that.
--
Bob

Click to expand...

Yeah, it's amazing how many people confuse the two.

An understandable mix-up for anyone who isn't of an engineering background.

mailman88 said:

The next EOS & PowerShot processor

It has been a long time since we spoke about or saw an updated DIGIC processor in a Canon Camera. It seems DIGIC IV has been around for a long time, 2008 to be exact.

I was told today that DIGIC V has been in development for at least 4 years. A lot has changed during its development because of the explosive success of the 5D Mark II and HD video.

Features of the next DIGIC Processor

■Still and video noise reduction that will be industry revolutionary (I like that word)
■The most throughput on the market
■Dynamic range improvements, unknown to what extent
■New video codec. RAW video is unknown, but the throughput will attainable
■New liveview AF abilities, unknown whether that will affect video AF
■New “creative” tools for new DSLR and compact features

http://www.canonrumors.com/

Click to expand...

because unless they did, I wouldn't put much faith in the "revolutionary" NR being anything more than more smearing of detail...

Regards,

Russ

--



Greater is He that is within me, than he who is in this world...

bobn2 said:

mailman88 said:

The next EOS & PowerShot processor

It has been a long time since we spoke about or saw an updated DIGIC processor in a Canon Camera. It seems DIGIC IV has been around for a long time, 2008 to be exact.

I was told today that DIGIC V has been in development for at least 4 years. A lot has changed during its development because of the explosive success of the 5D Mark II and HD video.

Features of the next DIGIC Processor

■Still and video noise reduction that will be industry revolutionary (I like that word)
■The most throughput on the market
■Dynamic range improvements, unknown to what extent
■New video codec. RAW video is unknown, but the throughput will attainable
■New liveview AF abilities, unknown whether that will affect video AF
■New “creative” tools for new DSLR and compact features

http://www.canonrumors.com/

Click to expand...

The DIGIC is simply a processor. Actually simply an ARM processor applications processor with image processing co-processors, most probably one of Texas Instruments Da Vinci series of application processors. Going through your list, those features are software or, if you like, firmware, not features of the processor. It is hard to see how a digital processor can improve dynamic range. It's too late in the imaging chain for that.
--
Bob

Click to expand...

I am glad that you point this out. I have also been wondering why people are too concern what processor that a manufacture puts into the camera. Camera is a fixed function computer or a dedicated computer. It either works as design or not. People seem to be excited what kind of process is used.

IMHO, we should be concern on what the final features, performance from a body. Unless, there is away a customer can upgrade the processor yourself or can run other applications on it. Perhaps, the later is coming - a camera that can get to an app. store and download some app. to run. In that case, I think it is reasonable to care about what processor/speed a body has.

Regards.

bobn2 said:

bobn2 said:

Features of the next DIGIC Processor

■Still and video noise reduction that will be industry revolutionary (I like that word)
■The most throughput on the market
■Dynamic range improvements, unknown to what extent
■New video codec. RAW video is unknown, but the throughput will attainable
■New liveview AF abilities, unknown whether that will affect video AF
■New “creative” tools for new DSLR and compact features

http://www.canonrumors.com/

Click to expand...

The DIGIC is simply a processor. Actually simply an ARM processor applications processor with image processing co-processors, most probably one of Texas Instruments Da Vinci series of application processors. Going through your list, those features are software or, if you like, firmware, not features of the processor. It is hard to see how a digital processor can improve dynamic range. It's too late in the imaging chain for that.

Click to expand...

Digic is not just any processor, it is a dedicated processor with hardware algorithms, which are much faster than software based solutions. For example it takes a modern intel i5 2.5ghz dual core cpu a second ot so to do the most basic NR to a 18 mp raw file, then a few more seconds to convert it to jpeg, while it takes digic4 almost no time to do the whole thing. so "improving imaging processing" in making a chip is completely normal.

similarly, encoding video file in real time and live view CDAF calculation in real time are all hardware coded, again this is the only way to make it fast enough and the reason why all digic4 cameras are so slow despite the fact that some were made back in 2008 (5D2) and some are made in 2011(600D).

in terms of improve dynamic range with digic4, it is logically possible, it may have something to do with how A/D convertor works and then how the digital information is processed (which for all we know could be considered as part of digic4), I for one think that the reason the sony sensor is so good with DR has a lot to do with A/D convertor, that is why every camera that uses this sensor have different DR.

Well Nice to Have a new DIGIC V...But my question is that if and how this new processor will impact th IQ when shooting in RAW? My knoledge is that RAW photo are not subject to lot of processing.

ridha

which is where the RAW file is created. The faster/better the processor the higher the IQ can be (depending on the hardware coded functions and software) .

With the introduction of the digic III it was possible to increase the tonal depth from 12 to 14 bit which is a major improvement IMO.

Chris

ultimitsu said:

bobn2 said:

ultimitsu said:

Features of the next DIGIC Processor

■Still and video noise reduction that will be industry revolutionary (I like that word)
■The most throughput on the market
■Dynamic range improvements, unknown to what extent
■New video codec. RAW video is unknown, but the throughput will attainable
■New liveview AF abilities, unknown whether that will affect video AF
■New “creative” tools for new DSLR and compact features

http://www.canonrumors.com/

Click to expand...

The DIGIC is simply a processor. Actually simply an ARM processor applications processor with image processing co-processors, most probably one of Texas Instruments Da Vinci series of application processors. Going through your list, those features are software or, if you like, firmware, not features of the processor. It is hard to see how a digital processor can improve dynamic range. It's too late in the imaging chain for that.

Click to expand...

Digic is not just any processor, it is a dedicated processor with hardware algorithms, which are much faster than software based solutions.

Click to expand...

As I said -and ARM applications processor with image processing co-processors' - that means exactly what you said.

ultimitsu said:

For example it takes a modern intel i5 2.5ghz dual core cpu a second ot so to do the most basic NR to a 18 mp raw file, then a few more seconds to convert it to jpeg, while it takes digic4 almost no time to do the whole thing. so "improving imaging processing" in making a chip is completely normal.

Click to expand...

Sorry to disabuse you. An I5 has oodles more image processing ability than a DIGIC, it has very similar image co-processors only they work about twice as fast and it has more of them. What you are observing is not how long it takes the processor to do image processing calculations, but the IO overhead of a ludicrously inefficient operating system.

ultimitsu said:

similarly, encoding video file in real time and live view CDAF calculation in real time are all hardware coded, again this is the only way to make it fast enough and the reason why all digic4 cameras are so slow despite the fact that some were made back in 2008 (5D2) and some are made in 2011(600D).

Click to expand...

The problem with these co-processors is that their programming interface is fiendishly complicated. Get a processor who understands it, and what the underlying hardware is doing, and they'll rip, one who doesn't and they'll run like a drain. unfortunately, not all managements unerringly differentiate between the two types of programmer.

ultimitsu said:

in terms of improve dynamic range with digic4, it is logically possible,

Click to expand...

beware of using the 'l' word. If you say something is 'logically possible', then I want to see the logic, and I do understand logic.

ultimitsu said:

it may have something to do with how A/D convertor works and then how the digital information is processed (which for all we know could be considered as part of digic4),

Click to expand...

yes, I very much want to see the logic. Show me the chain of reasoning which says a digital processor (and an algorithm is an algorithm, whether it is executed in a dedicated co-processor or by a program running on a general purpose processor).

ultimitsu said:

I for one think that the reason the sony sensor is so good with DR has a lot to do with A/D convertor, that is why every camera that uses this sensor have different DR.

Click to expand...

Actually, they are all very similar, apart from the Sony's which only use 12 bits of the data word.

--
Bob

Optical said:

which is where the RAW file is created. The faster/better the processor the higher the IQ can be (depending on the hardware coded functions and software) .

Click to expand...

Only if the processor is applying NR to raw files, which Canon, to my knowledge, does not do.

Optical said:

With the introduction of the digic III it was possible to increase the tonal depth from 12 to 14 bit which is a major improvement IMO.

Click to expand...

No, that had to do with fitting a 14 bit ADC, which became available from Analog Devices who had previously only offered 12 bit parts - nothing to do with the DIGIC. All the DIGICs are 32 bit processors, they can process 8, 10, 12, 14 or 16 bit samples with equal speed (as can any 32 bit computer - your computer doesn't get slower when the values in the memory go above 4095)
--
Bob

I meant that more powerfull processors are able to read out and proces data from the DACS faster.

As a result the dual Digic 3, for instance, were able to proces (calculate white balance, convert to jpg etc) bit streams with 14 bit tonal depth, 10 MP images at 10 fps in the 1D3.

New processors need to be much faster with increasing filesize and video demands.

So, basically, you're right

Chris

Hendrik123 said:

canon 5D mark III and the 7D II will get the DIGIC V i think...

do you think the canon 7D II will get 2 of DIGIC V?

Click to expand...

Having dual Digics is an unnecessary complication. If I was Canon, I’d design the Digiv V so that just a single one will suffice in the 7DII and the 5DIII.

Only the 1-series is expensive enough to warrant the use of two Digics rather tnan one.

ultimitsu said:

Digic is not just any processor, it is a dedicated processor with hardware algorithms, which are much faster than software based solutions.

Click to expand...

I think you are making incorrect assumptions. Bob is right that the Digic is just a 'normal' ARM processor and it's hardly any more specialized than the processor used in the iPhone (also ARM).

ultimitsu said:

For example it takes a modern intel i5 2.5ghz dual core cpu a second ot so to do the most basic NR to a 18 mp raw file, then a few more seconds to convert it to jpeg, while it takes digic4 almost no time to do the whole thing. so "improving imaging processing" in making a chip is completely normal.

Click to expand...

And that's because the in-camera algorithms for raw-> jpeg conversion and noise reduction are more primitive than the software based solutions. Hence the lower quality of in-camera jpegs compared to Lightroom, for example.

x-vision said:

ultimitsu said:

Digic is not just any processor, it is a dedicated processor with hardware algorithms, which are much faster than software based solutions.

Click to expand...

I think you are making incorrect assumptions. Bob is right that the Digic is just a 'normal' ARM processor and it's hardly any more specialized than the processor used in the iPhone (also ARM).

Click to expand...

I have not seen ARM core in a standalone chip (like x86 base or its variants). It typically is part of a System On Socket i.e. the whole chip integrates other peripherals that make embedded solution for small form factor device easier/lower cost to manufacture. iPhone's or any Android's smart phones SoC (with ARM) do have LCD controller, A/D, small boot ROM, USB controller and I believe even some image processor included. I suspect DIGIC V is similar that it has other things that are useful for image/video processing support.

x-vision said:

x-vision said:

For example it takes a modern intel i5 2.5ghz dual core cpu a second ot so to do the most basic NR to a 18 mp raw file, then a few more seconds to convert it to jpeg, while it takes digic4 almost no time to do the whole thing. so "improving imaging processing" in making a chip is completely normal.

Click to expand...

And that's because the in-camera algorithms for raw-> jpeg conversion and noise reduction are more primitive than the software based solutions. Hence the lower quality of in-camera jpegs compared to Lightroom, for example.

Click to expand...

Regards.

Glassfish said:

I have not seen ARM core in a standalone chip (like x86 base or its variants). It typically is part of a System On Socket i.e. the whole chip integrates other peripherals that make embedded solution for small form factor device easier/lower cost to manufacture.

Click to expand...

You are of course right - but nobody said that the Digic is a standalone chip.

In fact, to the best of my knowledge, Canon has at least their ADCs built into the Digic processor - unlike Sony's ADCs, for example, which are on-sensor.

But the point is that most (all?) image processing is still done in software running on the Digic processor. There's no 'magic' hardware circuitry for noise reduction or raw-> jpeg conversion.

x-vision said:

Glassfish said:

I have not seen ARM core in a standalone chip (like x86 base or its variants). It typically is part of a System On Socket i.e. the whole chip integrates other peripherals that make embedded solution for small form factor device easier/lower cost to manufacture.

Click to expand...

You are of course right - but nobody said that the Digic is a standalone chip.

In fact, to the best of my knowledge, Canon has at least their ADCs built into the Digic processor - unlike Sony's ADCs, for example, which are on-sensor.

But the point is that most (all?) image processing is still done in software running on the Digic processor. There's no 'magic' hardware circuitry for noise reduction or raw-> jpeg conversion.

Click to expand...

I do not disagree with you. I just want to point out about ARM.

Regards.

bobn2 said:

yes, I very much want to see the logic. Show me the chain of reasoning which says a digital processor (and an algorithm is an algorithm, whether it is executed in a dedicated co-processor or by a program running on a general purpose processor).

Click to expand...

What are you babbling about?

x-vision said:

Glassfish said:

I have not seen ARM core in a standalone chip (like x86 base or its variants). It typically is part of a System On Socket i.e. the whole chip integrates other peripherals that make embedded solution for small form factor device easier/lower cost to manufacture.

Click to expand...

You are of course right - but nobody said that the Digic is a standalone chip.

In fact, to the best of my knowledge, Canon has at least their ADCs built into the Digic processor - unlike Sony's ADCs, for example, which are on-sensor.

Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure the ADC's are not on the DIGIC. The chdk guys have pretty much identified the DIGICs as TI application processors, the DIGIC IV being one of the DaVinci range - they even worked out the model number. This is by looking 'from the inside' at the programming interfaces for the on-chip peripheral devices. While thse chips have ADC's on them, they are low speed, low precision jobbies for touch screens, control devices and so on. The imaging ADC is a separate chip, what's called an 'Analog Front End' chip, which is made by Analog Devices or TI. The high density, general purpose digital CMOS used for the DIGIC simply doesn't perform well enough or fast enough for a high quality camera.

x-vision said:

But the point is that most (all?) image processing is still done in software running on the Digic processor. There's no 'magic' hardware circuitry for noise reduction or raw-> jpeg conversion.

Click to expand...

There is a lot of special purpose hardware on these things:



including hardware accelerators for JPEG encoding and decoding, all sorts of other stuff. If you want to see what's going to be in the DIGIC V, look at TI's Product releases.
--
Bob