Any credible rumours on K-r replacement?

Maybe I really am missing something here... last I checked there is always somebody who knows more. Only idiots think they're infallible. :-)

But... isn't the dynamic range of the photosite determined by the number of electrons the full well can accumulate? With smaller photosites each well will be able to accumulate lower and lower number of electrons all other things being equal. That would reduce the dynamic range of each pixel.

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Happiness is a want... Contentment is a choice.
 
You'll notice that many of the laments about limited DR are often related to shooting JPEG's or JPEG processing which intentionally has the displayed DR compressed to about this due to a contrast boost in digital image development even though the captured range is much wider or lamenting limited "highlight headroom", which can be compensated with today's cameras by just slightly underexposing and modifying the development.
It's not at all rare that the only way to really save the highlights is to underexpose drastically, not "slightly". And I don't think it's an abstruse theoretical or technical issue for the average unsophisticated snapshooter... the fact is that today's cheap digicams constantly turn clouds and waterfalls and so on into solid clipped white, and it's not uncommon to blow out patches of skin if the light isn't behind the shooter. In that area the average snapshooter might well still be better off with film.
Paul, the reason that compact cameras tend to "blow" highlight detail is that they tend to have a Dynamic Range (DR) of only about 10 stops (and much less at any increased ISO), and thus must tend to overexpose in order to not have too much visible noise in the shadows.

Usually a negative EV compensation of one or two stops is enough to preserve skin and cloud highlights when developed from raw, and a 12 to 14 stop DR would then be enough to preserve all but specular highlights.

Regards, GordonBGood
 
But... isn't the dynamic range of the photosite determined by the number of electrons the full well can accumulate? With smaller photosites each well will be able to accumulate lower and lower number of electrons all other things being equal. That would reduce the dynamic range of each pixel.
Currently the true limit of Dynamic Range (DR) is the low part of the range by the black read noise "floor", and that isn't really limited by the number of electrons in the full well for current sensors; in fact, compact cameras with their small sensors and limited full well capacities can have less black read noise in real electron terms than do larger DSLR sensors.

If black read noise were virtually eliminated, then the limit where the lowest limit defined as where the Signal to Noise Ratio is 1 : 1 is limited by the full well capacity as that limit then occurs with a signal level of one electron.

You are correct that smaller and smaller photosites does make for a lesser DR, just as compact cameras have now, but that isn't all that significant as what really matters, just as for noise, is the amount of DR for a given viewed area in a display or print, and higher density sensors actually can reduce this or at least not increase the noise = reduce the DR.

What Paul (paulkienitz) is talking about are different ways of treating or making a sensor respond non-linearly as in a natural roll off as it approaches bright saturation and in fact this does not actually increase the number of electrons in the full electron well (or not by much) but rather increases the highlight range limit of DR by raising the point where the output signal stops responding to increasing light levels. Even though level resolution for the bright tones drops doing this, it doesn't matter as our monitors and eyes respond in a similar non-linear fashion so that we need many times fewer levels in the bright signal than in the dark ones. Unfortunately, these techniques work best for lowest ISO's were for newer technology conventional sensors we already have almost as much DR as we can use.

Regards, GordonBGood
 
Paul,

We haven't really hit on the fact that as photosite size decreases, photosite crosstalk increases and by that I mean both electronic and optical crosstalk. From what I have read these factors have been limiters in decreasing photosite size. Just more reasons I don't think we will ever have 50 or 100MP packed into an APS-C sized imager.

--
Happiness is a want... Contentment is a choice.
 
Hi Wim, hope you are well.
In top shape as usual! ;-)
He will be stepping from my old *istD so anything is going to be a quantum leap! He is also trying to decide if it's actually worth (for his particular needs) following the DSLR route or going back to a high end compact (or perhaps I suggested a mirrorless ILC camera such as an Olympus PEN due to smaller size).
Are you sure the step down from a two dial controlled camera to a one dial controlled camera won't make it less than a quantum leap? I would personally find it pretty frustrating to loose a dial, regardless of technological improvements. If he's a user of the auto modes solely, this is a non-issue of course.
My brother-in-law went ahead with the K-r (at a great price) rather than wait and dropped around yesterday to hand my old *istD back and show me the K-r. After using Pentax's more premium models since 2004 the most obvious things missing and a little disturbing despite knowing they wouldn't be there) was the lack of front dial and no top panel LCD. He agrees too that it feels a little more consumer but the important thing is it is very customisable and under the bonnet the image quality is still very good. He is enjoying the higher performance, better JPEG engine and low light capability.

The *istD feels so slow compared to my K-7 perhaps I'll keep it for the kids to play with or as a museum piece!

--
Brett
http://www.pbase.com/shreder



The Journey is the Thing
 
I'm under the impression that the K-r is the K-x replacement I could be wrong but it looks very much like that to me.

The does leave a K-r to K-5 gap if Pentax want to fill that remains to be seen. I think it would be a good idea to have a mid level body between the 2 as the price difference is quite substantial.

They would have to use the 16mp CMOS though that's for sure.
 
Paul,

We haven't really hit on the fact that as photosite size decreases, photosite crosstalk increases and by that I mean both electronic and optical crosstalk. From what I have read these factors have been limiters in decreasing photosite size. Just more reasons I don't think we will ever have 50 or 100MP packed into an APS-C sized imager.
You're still thinking in terms of having an image that's sharp down to the individual photosite. With resolution overkill, that's no longer a design goal, and crosstalk is actually not that bad a thing to have. It functions as a form of antialiasing.
 
You're still thinking in terms of having an image that's sharp down to the individual photosite. With resolution overkill, that's no longer a design goal, and crosstalk is actually not that bad a thing to have. It functions as a form of antialiasing.
Paul & Gordon,

Then doesn't that get back to my original statement. If some future type of imager is using such densly packed photosites that they no longer even attempt optical isolation then while it may have 50 million photosites it won't be close to that resolution. On top of that the lack of electrical isolation raises the noise floor further dimishing any gains made through a higher photosite count.

Also... we never addressed the Canon statement that they had trouble creating top grade lenses that could accurately resolve 16MP much less 50! What antialiasing value would optical crosstalk be if it was simply more of the same information arriving at multiple photosites due to a lens that can't resolve 50 million points of light.

I think I'll stand by my statement that we won't be having real 50-100MP APS-C imagers in our cameras. Much like PC's and clock frequencies silicon imager and lens technology has reached a point where only small gains are forseeable. We haven't managed to eliminate noise in any other type of circuitry in the decades since the invention of the transistor. We will have to continue to contend with noise and limited resolution glass.

Dropping photosite size isn't going to make those problems easier to solve - actually harder.

Scott

--
Happiness is a want... Contentment is a choice.
 
You're still thinking in terms of having an image that's sharp down to the individual photosite. With resolution overkill, that's no longer a design goal, and crosstalk is actually not that bad a thing to have. It functions as a form of antialiasing.
Paul & Gordon,

Then doesn't that get back to my original statement. If some future type of imager is using such densly packed photosites that they no longer even attempt optical isolation then while it may have 50 million photosites it won't be close to that resolution. On top of that the lack of electrical isolation raises the noise floor further dimishing any gains made through a higher photosite count.

Also... we never addressed the Canon statement that they had trouble creating top grade lenses that could accurately resolve 16MP much less 50!
Back up a minute. You're still ignoring my core point: that we don't WANT a sensor that isolates every photosite. Because doing so brings with it all the issues I mentioned previously: aliasing, moire, interpolation guesswork, and so on.

Ask yourself one question: if you have a lens that can resolve to a 20 megapixel level, then which sensor will produce a better picture when printed or displayed at the same size: a 16 megapixel sensor or a 64 megapixel sensor? The answer is the latter.

There's a tradeoff to be made between sharpness and noise, and if we use lots of megapixels then we can make the tradeoff in an optimal way, but if we use barely sufficient megapixels, then the tradeoff gets made for us, with no choice. And then it starts with the moire and the aliasing and the oy vey.

Using too many megapixels is the only way to get an image that's as good as your lens. People keep thinking that the goal is to be as good as your sensor. I say that's a fundamentally dumb and backwards approach. The picture comes from the lens, and all the sensor can do is mess it up. Let's get the sensor out of the way, so sensor resolution issues just aren't a factor. Then the lens determines the picture.

Early compact disk players had issues with high frequencies because they had to sharply filter them to keep the sampling noise out of the output. This produced distortions in the treble. Later CD players used "oversampling" to overcome this problem. By interpolating mathematically to double or quadruple the number of digital samples, they removed the need for harsh analog filtering.

But once that was done, did they stick with quadruple oversampling because it was perfectly adequate? No, they went for 64x and 128x oversampling. Just because they could.

Same here. There's no reason not to sample the light at every two microns instead of every twelve, even though there's no great gain in picture quality as a result. At the moment there are cost reasons why they don't do that, but in time those costs will disappear. The price of a sensor is going to be determined mainly by its overall size, not its density.

Eventually, a 100 megapixel camera is practically guaranteed to happen... even though the final picture quality may be only mildly better than what we have now. There's simply no reason not to do it.
 
I see your point. The oversampling analogy was a good one.

We shall see.

Time and physics will determine.

--
Happiness is a want... Contentment is a choice.
 
You're still thinking in terms of having an image that's sharp down to the individual photosite. With resolution overkill, that's no longer a design goal, and crosstalk is actually not that bad a thing to have. It functions as a form of antialiasing.
Paul & Gordon,

Then doesn't that get back to my original statement. If some future type of imager is using such densly packed photosites that they no longer even attempt optical isolation then while it may have 50 million photosites it won't be close to that resolution. On top of that the lack of electrical isolation raises the noise floor further dimishing any gains made through a higher photosite count.
Scott, I agree with what Paul has replied to this post. Just to add a little bit, a Bayer Colour Filter Array (CFA) sensor doesn't really have a resolution of 50 MP anyway, and average luminance resolution isn't much better than 25 MP with colour resolution even less than that. I won't be surprised to see APS-C sensors go to at least this 50 MP resolution, which the best lenses are still likely capable of out resolving, at least in their centres at least at optimum apertures, and at least for lower MTF's than 50.
Also... we never addressed the Canon statement that they had trouble creating top grade lenses that could accurately resolve 16MP much less 50! What antialiasing value would optical crosstalk be if it was simply more of the same information arriving at multiple photosites due to a lens that can't resolve 50 million points of light.
Noise isn't really a problem as although it may increase slightly on a per photosite basis, it will actually likely be less on a per area basis and thus the net noise for prints or screen viewing at "fit to" sizes would be the same or less.

Cross talk also isn't really much of a problem as at that resolution edges aren't absolutely sharp anyway and the smoothing averaging of cross coupling would still be less than the softening due to diffraction and lens imperfections anyway. I also don't think it would be a problem for even 100 MP in an APS-C sensor as that is only about 1.8 micron spacing and current compact camera sensors are packed considerably more than that without severe cross coupling problems.
I think I'll stand by my statement that we won't be having real 50-100MP APS-C imagers in our cameras. Much like PC's and clock frequencies silicon imager and lens technology has reached a point where only small gains are forseeable. We haven't managed to eliminate noise in any other type of circuitry in the decades since the invention of the transistor. We will have to continue to contend with noise and limited resolution glass.

Dropping photosite size isn't going to make those problems easier to solve - actually harder.
As Paul says, none of the above is an argument contrary to continued increase of photosite densities to at least 50 MP for an APS-C sensor and perhaps even more. There will be slight diminishing gains to be had for increased sensor densities up to this point and probably negligible gains above about this limit, which is about the point where smallest compact camera sensors are approaching right now.

Regards, GordonBGood
 
Thanks Gordon... I've learned a few things.

--
Happiness is a want... Contentment is a choice.
 

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