Tripp, Trapp, Trull: Legacy Lens Guessing Game

Anders W

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Just put together a small legacy lens collection. But can you guess what I got?

Brand? Mount? Focal length? Max aperture? Version/generation if applicable?

Of course partial guesses are welcome. Just fire away.

 
I'd say the ones on the wings are Nikkors, but that's just a shot in the dark.

The middle one looks different.

Cheers,
Seth

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I'd say the ones on the wings are Nikkors, but that's just a shot in the dark.

The middle one looks different.
Good try Seth! You're right that the two on the wings have one thing in common not shared by the middle one. But no, they ain't Nikkors.
 
Brand? Mount? Focal length? Max aperture? Version/generation if applicable?
The ring on the wings looks like Canon FD later version. My guess based on sizes and min. focus distance: left = 50/1.8, right = 100/2.8

Center I've never seen before but it focuses darn close so my guess is: either some 28/2.8 or some 50/3.5-4 macro, maybe Minolta?

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Roman
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RomanB wrote:
This turns out to be harder than I thought it would be but you're on the right track in at least some ways.
The ring on the wings looks like Canon FD later version. My guess based on sizes and min. focus distance: left = 50/1.8, right = 100/2.8
Good thinking. Canon FD is wrong. However, for the lens on the left, 50 is correct and 1.8 about right but not quite. For the lens on the right 100 is about right but not quite whereas 2.8 is wrong.
Center I've never seen before but it focuses darn close so my guess is: either some 28/2.8 or some 50/3.5-4 macro, maybe Minolta?
Astute observation regarding the close focus! 28 is correct but 2.8 is wrong and it's not a Minolta as far as the brand is concerned. Now the rest should be easy. ;-)
 
I have a Canon FD 50mm 1.8 and it doesn't look like that. Minimum close focus on my Canon is 0.6 meters, as well.
Brand? Mount? Focal length? Max aperture? Version/generation if applicable?
The ring on the wings looks like Canon FD later version. My guess based on sizes and min. focus distance: left = 50/1.8, right = 100/2.8

Center I've never seen before but it focuses darn close so my guess is: either some 28/2.8 or some 50/3.5-4 macro, maybe Minolta?

--
Roman
http://www.barshay.org
 
I have a Canon FD 50mm 1.8 and it doesn't look like that. Minimum close focus on my Canon is 0.6 meters, as well.
Nej, som sagt, Canon FD är det inte så vad gissar du Lincoln? ;-)
 
The ring on the wings looks like Canon FD later version. My guess based on sizes and min. focus distance: left = 50/1.8, right = 100/2.8
Good thinking. Canon FD is wrong. However, for the lens on the left, 50 is correct and 1.8 about right but not quite. For the lens on the right 100 is about right but not quite whereas 2.8 is wrong.
Not Canon, Olympus or Nikon, that pretty much stikes me out. The left one still too small for 50/1.4, maybe Minolta 50/1.7?
Center I've never seen before but it focuses darn close so my guess is: either some 28/2.8 or some 50/3.5-4 macro, maybe Minolta?
Astute observation regarding the close focus! 28 is correct but 2.8 is wrong and it's not a Minolta as far as the brand is concerned.
Actually I see aperture settings go from right to left. I think Nikons have that but maybe other brands that I don't know about... doesn't really look like a typical Nikon...
Now the rest should be easy. ;-)
Haha. I give up.
At the end don't forget to say how good (or bad) they are :)

--
Roman
http://www.barshay.org
 
Haha. I give up.
At the end don't forget to say how good (or bad) they are :)
Don't give up. You just nailed one. The one to the left is indeed a Minolta 50/1.7. The one in the middle is not a Nikkor, but now the two that are left should be real easy anyway. ;-)
 
2 lenses with yellow digits look like Minolta MD Rokkors with 55mm filter thread. The lens in the center is Vivitar 28mm f/2.8 (I know because I have exactly the same lens in Canon FD mount). So my guess is (left to right): Minolta 50/1.7, Komine-made Vivitar 28/2.8 Close Focus and... hm... Minolta 100/2.8?
 
The one on the right looks exactly like my Minolta MD 85mm f2--mine is serial # 8007702 so they are pretty close in age (I bought mine new in 1986). I am now using it with my G1 and I find it to be excellent for normal/far distance photography but no so great at the minimum focusing distance...

The one on the left is another Minolta. I have the MD 50mm f1.4 and it's close (same minimum focus distance) but yours is a little shorter. It could be an MD 50mm f1.7 or even f2...

Don't know about the middle one...

Cheers, Keith
--
http://www.kotay.net/keith/photo/photo.shtml
 
2 lenses with yellow digits look like Minolta MD Rokkors with 55mm filter thread. The lens in the center is Vivitar 28mm f/2.8 (I know because I have exactly the same lens in Canon FD mount). So my guess is (left to right): Minolta 50/1.7, Komine-made Vivitar 28/2.8 Close Focus and... hm... Minolta 100/2.8?
Now we're getting mighty close. Minolta MD, yes, but Rokkors no (if we want to be picky). Both lenses (left and right) are from the period after 1981 when Minolta had dropped the Rokkor designation and just called them Minolta. Further, the filter thread is not 55 mm but 49, and the lens to the right is not 100/2.8 but 85/2. Vivitar, close focus, and Komine are all correct but it is f/2.0, not 2.8. Anyway, you got about as close as it is reasonable to get. So applauses!
 
The one on the right looks exactly like my Minolta MD 85mm f2--mine is serial # 8007702 so they are pretty close in age (I bought mine new in 1986). I am now using it with my G1 and I find it to be excellent for normal/far distance photography but no so great at the minimum focusing distance...
That's perfectly right. And the fact that you bought yours in 1986 helps me date mine rather closely. Thanks for that. I know it must be 1983 or after because it has the index pin on the mount introduced with the Minolta X-600. But it is obviously an early serial number, earlier than yours, so probably made already in 1983 or 1984.
The one on the left is another Minolta. I have the MD 50mm f1.4 and it's close (same minimum focus distance) but yours is a little shorter. It could be an MD 50mm f1.7 or even f2...
Yes, it is the 50/1.7.
 
Here's the visual solution to the quiz. More info on the specifics tomorrow:

 
I'm curoius as to your evaluation of the Vivitar 28mm. I haven't even tried my Minolta 28mm f2.8 since I assumed legacy wide angles would not be that good and the Minolta 28mm f2.8 was never considered a stellar performer (I have the Panasonic 14-45mm for that focal length anyway). Of course, your Vivitar is f2 which is a plus, but I'd really like to know how well it performs at the minimum focus distance and f5.6. I do a lot of work close up so I'm always looking for alternatives...

Cheers, Keith
--
http://www.kotay.net/keith/photo/photo.shtml
 
That's perfectly right. And the fact that you bought yours in 1986 helps me date mine rather closely. Thanks for that. I know it must be 1983 or after because it has the index pin on the mount introduced with the Minolta X-600. But it is obviously an early serial number, earlier than yours, so probably made already in 1983 or 1984.
You're welcome. Actually, it was early 1986 or maybe even late 1985 since I bought it to photograph Halley's Comet in Aruba (IIRC, our trip was in March). Of course, the lens could have been on the shelf for a while at my local camera store, but it is probably a 1985 vintage I would guess...

Cheers, Keith
--
http://www.kotay.net/keith/photo/photo.shtml
 
I'm curoius as to your evaluation of the Vivitar 28mm. I haven't even tried my Minolta 28mm f2.8 since I assumed legacy wide angles would not be that good and the Minolta 28mm f2.8 was never considered a stellar performer (I have the Panasonic 14-45mm for that focal length anyway). Of course, your Vivitar is f2 which is a plus, but I'd really like to know how well it performs at the minimum focus distance and f5.6. I do a lot of work close up so I'm always looking for alternatives...
Can't give you much of a personal evaluation at this point since I have yet to get an adapter as well as an m43 camera to go with it. ;-) I did try to see if it would fit provisionally on my current Pentax, but the K-mount is so much wider than the MD mount that it would not even hold the lens in place.

In fact, since I don't have an m43 camera yet, this was something of an accidental purchase. I was just browsing the legacy lens market a little to get an idea of what was available at what prices when I came across an intriguing offer for two MD mount lenses. One was clearly labeled as a Minolta MD 50 mm 1:1.7 but the other was sold as a "Hoya HMC Skylight 49 mm 1:2.0". ;-)

While this "lens designation" made it obvious that the seller had rather limited photographic experience, it did not tell me a whole lot about the lens except that it would take 49 mm filters and possibly had a max aperture of 2.0 (since filters are rarely labeled "1:2.0" ;-)). Nor could I make much out of the picture accompanying the ad since the lens was shown from pretty much the same angle as in the guessing game of this thread.

Since this sparked my curiosity and the price seemed promising (300 SEK, which translates to about 45 USD, for the pair), I called the guy and asked him to read the text on the front ring. After a brief Google session, I called him back and closed the deal. I think I was fortunate that the ad was so cryptic, particularly since it had already been out for a couple of weeks when I ran across it. Had the lens been appropriately described, I am pretty sure it would have been gone before I found it.

What I have since learnt is that this lens is a bit of cult object in certain circles. While there are quite a few Vivitar 28 mm lenses out there, as you see from "The Great Vivitar 28 mm Bestiary" available here

http://photografica.robinparmar.com/vivitar.html

the "close focus" versions (f/2.0 and f/2.8), both made by Komine, appear to be the most desirable, not only because of their close focus ability but also because of their general optical quality and good build. There is also a bunch of Vivitar 28 mm lenses built by Kiron (owned by Kino) and Cosina but none of these seem to have quite the reputation of the Komine versions, especially the Komine 28/2 that I was fortunate enough to stumble upon.

The Kirons seem to have systematic problems with oil on the aperture blades, do not appear to be quite on a par optically, and lack the close focus ability. The Cosinas, which appeared at a later stage are reported to be rather cheap and mundane constructions. The only other Vivitar 28 that might give the Komine 28/2 a run for the money is the 28/1.9 Series 1 built by Tokina. But the Tokina is bigger and heavier, does not focus quite as close, and the Komine bests it for optical quality (resolution/contrast as well as distortion), at least according to my eyes in the test provided here (where it also beats, among others, a Kiron 28/2, probably identical to the Kiron-made Vivitar 28/2, and a Zuiko 28/2):

http://translate.google.se/translate?hl=sv&sl=ja&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fhomepage3.nifty.com%2F3rdpartylens-om%2FLens%2520Test%2F28mm%2F28mmLensTest2.htm

You find an example of how it does at close focus at 5.6 here:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/anktonio/4022511428/sizes/o/in/photostream/

Further examples here, where the first one (to which I link directly) is probably a crop from a picture later in the same series

http://www.flickr.com/photos/anktonio/4021916523/in/photostream/

You'll find more examples if you search a bit on the net.

As you can see, the lens is unusually compact (only 50 mm long, with a diameter of 64 mm) and light (260 grams) for what it is: A fast, retrofocus 28 mm with a floating elements design (8 elements altogether) and a minimum focusing distance of 23 cm. Maximum magnification is 1:5, which implies that an 18 cm wide object would fill the frame on FF and a 9 cm wide one do the same on m43. Due to the short focal length (and possibly, to some extent, the floating elements), the lens extends only 5 mm when you go from infinity to 23 cm. For the same reason, even a short extension ring (about 10 mm) would give you significantly greater magnification if you want.

I still feel a little sorry for this lens, which was obviously a really hot wide angle on the cameras for which it was originally designed but on m43 is reduced to a mere "standard lens", and no longer particularly fast, light or small for that category.

I also wonder why they started to give wide angles close focus abilities. Was it only because it was relatively easy to do without making the lens particularly expensive, large or heavy or what? Personally, I do not see much reason to use a wide angle for close-ups (except for intentional distortion of perspective) and would normally prefer the tele range (for greater working distance) but ... I would welcome any thoughts on this.
 
That's perfectly right. And the fact that you bought yours in 1986 helps me date mine rather closely. Thanks for that. I know it must be 1983 or after because it has the index pin on the mount introduced with the Minolta X-600. But it is obviously an early serial number, earlier than yours, so probably made already in 1983 or 1984.
You're welcome. Actually, it was early 1986 or maybe even late 1985 since I bought it to photograph Halley's Comet in Aruba (IIRC, our trip was in March). Of course, the lens could have been on the shelf for a while at my local camera store, but it is probably a 1985 vintage I would guess...
Yes, that seems likely. In fact, your lens has one of the higher serial numbers I have seen. The highest among those sold by Kevin Cameras (which appear to specialize in relatively rare Minolta MD lenses) is 8009045. It's not inconceivable that only some 10,000 were built. While the lens was in production from 1981 to 1997, I wonder how many were made after Minolta introduced their new mount for AF lenses in 1985.

As you might already know, this is the second version of this lens. The first, which appeared in 1979 and still bore the Rokkor designation, is optically the same but slightly different in appearance. One of the minor differences is that the new version has a groove on the barrel for a clip-on lens hood. I was lucky enough to get an original hood with mine, and it looks as though it would be quite effective as well as quite convenient (since it reverses on the lens for easy storage). Probably, I'll be able to use it on the 50/1.7 too, since the latter is restricted to half its original FOV on an m43 camera.

As you might also know, this is the best of the 85s released by Minolta in MC/MD mount, superior to the 85/1.7 that preceded it, at least according to "The Rokkor files":

http://www.rokkorfiles.com/85mm%20Page%201.htm

I hope they are right about that. ;-) What I definitely like about it is that it is so small and light for what it is: Only 54 mm long and 64 around the waist, with a weight of 285 grams. Not bad for what is now effectively a fast 170 mm tele. The Vivitar 200/3.5 I used in the film days weighed in at close to three times as much, which of course meant that I wouldn't have it with me unless I could specifically foresee the need for it. The 50/1.7 is quite slim too. Same waistline but only 36 mm long with a weight of 165 grams. The Hexanon 40/1.8 pancake (27 mm and 140 grams) beats it, but not by a whole lot.

In contrast to the 28/2 and the 50/1.7, I had to pay quite a bit to get the 85/2: 1,900 SEK (about 300 USD) at a dealer for used camera gear here in Sweden. I could locate only two copies on the Swedish market, of which only one was the later of the two versions.

Not sure it makes sense to pay as much as I did. ;-) But once I started down the Minolta MD line, I figured I should continue that route, particularly since the 85/2 seemed like a good lens with a slim form factor. The only way to get one for much less than I paid would be from someone who does not know quite what he or she is selling. And the odds for that happening do not seem very promising if only 10,000 or so were made.

I followed an auction on ebay that ended the other day where it went for 280 USD. And that was the first (Rokkor) version in a condition slightly worse than the near-mint specimen I got. I saw a few at KEH for about 300 USD as well, and Kevin Cameras sells them for about 400 USD or more. So from that point of view, I did not pay too much, particularly since I have a six month warranty on mine.

You said that you liked the lens at normal to far distances but not so much at closer range. In what way does it "misbehave" when getting close? Not that I intend to use it for macro work but it's always good to know what one can expect. If you have additional comments about its performance at normal to far distances, I'd be interested in those too.
 
One of the minor differences is that the new version has a groove on the barrel for a clip-on lens hood. I was lucky enough to get an original hood with mine, and it looks as though it would be quite effective as well as quite convenient (since it reverses on the lens for easy storage). Probably, I'll be able to use it on the 50/1.7 too, since the latter is restricted to half its original FOV on an m43 camera.
I like the hood for the 85mm, especially the ability to reverse it for storage...
Not sure it makes sense to pay as much as I did. ;-) But once I started down the Minolta MD line, I figured I should continue that route, particularly since the 85/2 seemed like a good lens with a slim form factor. The only way to get one for much less than I paid would be from someone who does not know quite what he or she is selling. And the odds for that happening do not seem very promising if only 10,000 or so were made.
The legacy lens thing is interesting, but I have tried to resist buying anything that I didn't already have. In addition to the Minolta 28mm, 50mm, and 85mm, I also have a Vivitar 135mm f2.3 Series 1 and a Minolta MC 300mm f4.5. I was curious as to how these old lenses would perform. In general they do okay, but I am getting to the point where I can't afford to "waste" time on marginal lenses. Or, to put it another way, I find it hard to justify my limited photographic time on anything but the best lenses I can afford. Certainly lenses designed for digital cameras can potentially be better than lenses from the film era, if only on anti-reflection lens coatings. My problem are (1) I like manual focus lenses, and (2) I can't afford a set of Zeiss lenses. So I am leaning toward Voigtlander at the moment...

I even have a couple of Contax G lenses: 28mm and 45mm (one of the all-time sharpest lenses). I have been debating getting a Contax G adapter, but I am concerned about the ease of focusing (which is one of the things I really like about manual focus lenses). Getting an adapter and buying a 90mm would make for a nice set of compact lenses for the G1, but I don't really know how they perform close up and there was no Contax G macro...

One lens I have bought is an Olympus 80mm macro + Auto Tube to do macro work. It is a very nice lens in the studio but a bit cumbersome in the field...
You said that you liked the lens at normal to far distances but not so much at closer range. In what way does it "misbehave" when getting close? Not that I intend to use it for macro work but it's always good to know what one can expect. If you have additional comments about its performance at normal to far distances, I'd be interested in those too.
I did some tests of the Minolta 50mm, 85mm, Vivitar 135mm, and Panasonic 14-45mm (at 45mm) at the minimum focus distance. I should put the shots online but my summation is that the lenses need to be stopped down to at least f4, with f5.6-f8 being a bit better. The 135mm was the sharpest and had good color rendition (it was called a "close focus" lens so it was probably optimzed for that). The 14-45mm (at 45mm) was second best (actually pretty close), and the 50mm and 85mm were not as sharp.

I also did a quick test of the 85mm, 135mm, and 300mm at infinity focus. The 85mm was the clear winner with great contrast and sharpness. From that I was assuming that the 85mm was not optimized for the extreme near end of the focus range which would make sense as it is a portrait lens. I should test the 85mm at 2m to see how it performs there...

I guess I am wondering if legacy lenses tended to be optimized for certain parts of the focus range, since they did not have the computer-based optical design programs available today...

Cheers, Keith
--
http://www.kotay.net/keith/photo/photo.shtml
 
UnderDriven wrote:
Many thanks for your thoughts! See some comments below.
I like the hood for the 85mm, especially the ability to reverse it for storage...
Yes, that's neat and I like the clip-on construction too. Nowadays, hoods are usually fitted by means of a bayonet-like construction, which, like the clip-on type, makes it very easy to put the hood on and off. The old threaded hoods make the process too slow and finicky for my liking. Hoods should go on and off in a snap and reverse on the lens for storage. If that solution is unavailable, as it is on many legacy lenses, I am apt to go with a collapsible (rubber) one that I can leave on all the time, even if it looks cheap.
The legacy lens thing is interesting, but I have tried to resist buying anything that I didn't already have. In addition to the Minolta 28mm, 50mm, and 85mm, I also have a Vivitar 135mm f2.3 Series 1 and a Minolta MC 300mm f4.5. I was curious as to how these old lenses would perform. In general they do okay, but I am getting to the point where I can't afford to "waste" time on marginal lenses. Or, to put it another way, I find it hard to justify my limited photographic time on anything but the best lenses I can afford. Certainly lenses designed for digital cameras can potentially be better than lenses from the film era, if only on anti-reflection lens coatings. My problem are (1) I like manual focus lenses, and (2) I can't afford a set of Zeiss lenses. So I am leaning toward Voigtlander at the moment...
Hmm. At least the middle three of the lenses you already own (50, 85, 135) have an enviable reputation and I seriously doubt that even current Zeiss or Voigtländer lenses would be more than marginally better (if at all). Although I certainly wouldn't deny the merits of current lens technology, these three all belong to a category of lenses where not a whole lot has happened since they were designed. They are all relatively simple constructions, essentially double-gauss with six or seven elements, which also means that the number of lens surfaces is hardly a serious problem for the lens coating technique of the time. When it comes to coatings, my general impression (which doesn't aspire to be more than just an impression) is that major steps forward were taken up to about 1980 but that later developments make less of a difference, not because there is no progress but because what had already been achieved was already close to the physical limit.
I even have a couple of Contax G lenses: 28mm and 45mm (one of the all-time sharpest lenses). I have been debating getting a Contax G adapter, but I am concerned about the ease of focusing (which is one of the things I really like about manual focus lenses). Getting an adapter and buying a 90mm would make for a nice set of compact lenses for the G1, but I don't really know how they perform close up and there was no Contax G macro...
Not sure I follow you here. Do you mean that it would be more difficult to focus with Contax lenses than with other MF lenses? And if so, why?
One lens I have bought is an Olympus 80mm macro + Auto Tube to do macro work. It is a very nice lens in the studio but a bit cumbersome in the field...
Yes, I have thought of getting a legacy macro too, perhaps even bellows and a focusing rail (which, in contrast to an ordinary macro lens, is something I never had even in the film days). It would be fun to play with and legacy macros also belong among the lens types that I think are still going strong. I guess the cost would stay reasonable even if I wouldn't use it all that much.
 

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