Confused: Digital 'SLR'

Xtraz · Jul 28, 2000

I've seen the term 'digital SLR camera' used on several digicams. But if you're using the LCD viewfinder to compose your picture, then you're basically seeing what the lens see (which is what SLR means). So doesn't that make all digital cameras SLR cameras?

Chris Friesen · Jul 28, 2000

Xtraz said:
I've seen the term 'digital SLR camera' used on several digicams. But if
you're using the LCD viewfinder to compose your picture, then you're
basically seeing what the lens see (which is what SLR means). So doesn't
that make all digital cameras SLR cameras?

While technically the term SLR means single lens reflex, most people use the term to denote a camera that has interchangeable lenses.

Thus, while technically you would compose on the F505 using the LCD viewfinder, most people would not consider it an SLR because it doesn't have interchangeable lenses.

Also, what most people consider an SLR has an optical screen to view what the lens sees, and these screens are much, much higher resolution than any current LCD. If you are being critical about the image, it is much easier to judge depth of field and what is focused through an optical screen than a digital LCD.

Chris

Pete Patriquin · Jul 28, 2000

Xtraz said:
I've seen the term 'digital SLR camera' used on several digicams. But if
you're using the LCD viewfinder to compose your picture, then you're
basically seeing what the lens see (which is what SLR means). So doesn't
that make all digital cameras SLR cameras?

Forget the LCD and turn your attention to the optical viewfinder. 35mm cameras are divided into two types: SLR's, where the viewfinder looks through the lens, and rangefinders, where the viewfinder looks parallel to
and close to the lens, but not through it. The advantage of the SLR type
is obvious, but they're much more expensive to build.

Among digital cameras, almost all models are rangefinders, including some of
the most highly regarded models by Olympus, Nikon, etc.

As far as I know, the only digital cameras whose optical viewfinder looks through the lens are the Olympus D500/600/620, the Olympus 2500, and
certain Sony models, I think (I don't know much about Sony cameras.)

You're right about digital camera LCD's. They look through the lens, and the
only problem is the difficulty using the LCD outdoors.

jeffrey behr · Jul 28, 2000

Chris--maybe the people you talk to think that 'SLR' means 'interchangeable lens', but none that I know do. Obviously, SLRs without interchangeable lenses exist, most of which are Olys. 'SLR' means that the viewfinder's view is thru the prime lens. Digicams that view only with the LCD are NOT SLRs.

Assisting in the corruption of the term does no one favors, it just confuses people.

Chris Friesen · Jul 28, 2000

Jeffrey Behr said:
Chris--maybe the people you talk to think that 'SLR' means
'interchangeable lens', but none that I know do. Obviously, SLRs without
interchangeable lenses exist, most of which are Olys. 'SLR' means that
the viewfinder's view is thru the prime lens. Digicams that view only
with the LCD are NOT SLRs.

If you view only with the LCD, then you are by definition viewing the image formed by the light that has entered through the prime lens. Therefore, it could very well be considered an SLR, even though you are seeing "reconstituted" light rather than the "original" light. By this same definition, video cameras could be called SLRs as well, since the image formed in the viewfinder is from the light that came in through the prime lens.

Also, I never said that SLR means interchangeable lens, only that many people use it as such (albeit incorrectly).

Chris

Paul F Caldwell · Aug 1, 2000

SLR= Single Len Reflex = any camera that allows you to view what the lens is viewing through a viewfinder. Of course with the new digital cameras, you can view what the lens is seeing via a LCD. Real time and you can observe changes to the shot via the LCD.
Examples of a Digial SLR, Nikon D1, Kodal 315, 330, 520, 620
Upcoming Canon D30, Fuji S1

So far none of these will let you shoot with LCD however to me if you want a SLR, then you might not care about this. I would like the freedom to do both. I was amazed how much I have changed. I have been shooting with the Nikon 950 and 990 for over a year and hardly ever using my older 35mm gear. I was outdoors the other day, and picked up my 35mm and found myself holding it away from my face as I would be holding the Nikon 990.

Obviously, the technology to allow you to see the image in the viewfinder and LCD is way to costly, it would require some form of realtime pass through as in your SLR you are seeing via th mirror. The image in the mirror will have to pass through to the CCD. I expect to see this in a year or so since the lower priced digital cameras can so it now.

Pete Patriquin said:
Xtraz said:

I've seen the term 'digital SLR camera' used on several digicams. But if
you're using the LCD viewfinder to compose your picture, then you're
basically seeing what the lens see (which is what SLR means). So doesn't
that make all digital cameras SLR cameras?

Click to expand...

Forget the LCD and turn your attention to the optical viewfinder. 35mm
cameras are divided into two types: SLR's, where the viewfinder looks
through the lens, and rangefinders, where the viewfinder looks parallel to
and close to the lens, but not through it. The advantage of the SLR type
is obvious, but they're much more expensive to build.

Among digital cameras, almost all models are rangefinders, including some of
the most highly regarded models by Olympus, Nikon, etc.

As far as I know, the only digital cameras whose optical viewfinder looks
through the lens are the Olympus D500/600/620, the Olympus 2500, and
certain Sony models, I think (I don't know much about Sony cameras.)

You're right about digital camera LCD's. They look through the lens, and
the
only problem is the difficulty using the LCD outdoors.

Xtraz · Aug 1, 2000

I see, so the term SLR has to be associated with mirrow designs that reflec light from your lens to your viewfinder.

You commented on how you expect cameras with both LCD and SLR viewfinder to coexist around next year, but I think what's more likely is that the LCD technology continue to improve such that bright light operation with an LCD is no longer a problem. If that in the case, then having both LCD and viewfinder would be a duplication of feature. (I've always considered the LCD view to be a viewfinder, I mean, they both do the same thing: help you compose your picture)

Of course, there are people who prefer to put their eyes against their cameras, but personally I also find it wierd nowadays to hold a camera so close to my face. How many of you who have used digital cameras still like to use optical viewfinders? And why? (I'm curious, that's all)

Paul Caldwell said:
SLR= Single Len Reflex = any camera that allows you to view what the
lens is viewing through a viewfinder. Of course with the new digital
cameras, you can view what the lens is seeing via a LCD. Real time and
you can observe changes to the shot via the LCD.
Examples of a Digial SLR, Nikon D1, Kodal 315, 330, 520, 620
Upcoming Canon D30, Fuji S1

So far none of these will let you shoot with LCD however to me if you
want a SLR, then you might not care about this. I would like the freedom
to do both. I was amazed how much I have changed. I have been shooting
with the Nikon 950 and 990 for over a year and hardly ever using my older
35mm gear. I was outdoors the other day, and picked up my 35mm and found
myself holding it away from my face as I would be holding the Nikon 990.
Obviously, the technology to allow you to see the image in the viewfinder
and LCD is way to costly, it would require some form of realtime pass
through as in your SLR you are seeing via th mirror. The image in the
mirror will have to pass through to the CCD. I expect to see this in a
year or so since the lower priced digital cameras can so it now.

Michael F. · Aug 2, 2000

Also, an SLR uses a prism and mirrors to view the image on a different plane than the actual film surface. In addition, there are some truly great cameras which have interchangeable lenses; Leica rangefinders, lots of medium format cameras like Hasselblad, Bronica, etc.

Mike

Jeffrey Behr said:
Chris--maybe the people you talk to think that 'SLR' means
'interchangeable lens', but none that I know do. Obviously, SLRs without
interchangeable lenses exist, most of which are Olys. 'SLR' means that
the viewfinder's view is thru the prime lens. Digicams that view only
with the LCD are NOT SLRs.

Assisting in the corruption of the term does no one favors, it just
confuses people.

Michael F. · Aug 2, 2000

You are confusing Through the lens (TTL) with Single Lens Reflex (SLR). An SLR is only as I described it above. SLRs are related to Twin Lens Reflex cameras, which use two lenses - one for the view finder (which uses mirrors to deflect the image onto a screen, and one for the film.

Mike

Chris said:
If you view only with the LCD, then you are by definition viewing the
image formed by the light that has entered through the prime lens.
Therefore, it could very well be considered an SLR, even though you are
seeing "reconstituted" light rather than the "original" light. By this
same definition, video cameras could be called SLRs as well, since the
image formed in the viewfinder is from the light that came in through the
prime lens.

Also, I never said that SLR means interchangeable lens, only that many
people use it as such (albeit incorrectly).

Chris

Doug W · Aug 2, 2000

I can give you one reason why I prefer to hold the camera to my eye (and I use an epson 850z with an xtend-a-view loupe on the lcd as the viewfinder, indoors or out, exclusively): with the camera held to my eye, I can brace my arms agains my body and hand-hold a shot with a shutter speed about two stops slower than the speed it takes me to get a sharp shot if I hold the camera away from my face and view the LCD at a comfortable focusing distance without the loupe.

D

Xtraz said:
Paul Caldwell said:

SLR= Single Len Reflex = any camera that allows you to view what the
lens is viewing through a viewfinder. Of course with the new digital
cameras, you can view what the lens is seeing via a LCD. Real time and
you can observe changes to the shot via the LCD.
Examples of a Digial SLR, Nikon D1, Kodal 315, 330, 520, 620
Upcoming Canon D30, Fuji S1

So far none of these will let you shoot with LCD however to me if you
want a SLR, then you might not care about this. I would like the freedom
to do both. I was amazed how much I have changed. I have been shooting
with the Nikon 950 and 990 for over a year and hardly ever using my older
35mm gear. I was outdoors the other day, and picked up my 35mm and found
myself holding it away from my face as I would be holding the Nikon 990.
Obviously, the technology to allow you to see the image in the viewfinder
and LCD is way to costly, it would require some form of realtime pass
through as in your SLR you are seeing via th mirror. The image in the
mirror will have to pass through to the CCD. I expect to see this in a
year or so since the lower priced digital cameras can so it now.

Click to expand...

Mark B. · Aug 2, 2000

Xtraz said:
I see, so the term SLR has to be associated with mirrow designs that
reflec light from your lens to your viewfinder.
You commented on how you expect cameras with both LCD and SLR viewfinder
to coexist around next year, but I think what's more likely is that the
LCD technology continue to improve such that bright light operation with
an LCD is no longer a problem. If that in the case, then having both LCD
and viewfinder would be a duplication of feature. (I've always considered
the LCD view to be a viewfinder, I mean, they both do the same thing:
help you compose your picture)
Of course, there are people who prefer to put their eyes against their
cameras, but personally I also find it wierd nowadays to hold a camera so
close to my face. How many of you who have used digital cameras still
like to use optical viewfinders? And why? (I'm curious, that's all)

I have an Epson 850z and Canon EOS A2 film SLR. When using the Epson, I find the optical viewfinder to be 100% useless and only use the LCD. Of course, in broad daylight this becomes pretty useless as well. If the viewfinder looked through the lens, it would be infinitely better. But as long as the LCD is viewable, I don't mind using the digicam this way - it's light and easy to hold steady, except maybe when I have a flash attached.

I still prefer my Canon, and I like holding it close. The main reason is stability - I can hold the camera better when it's close (I don't have any IS lenses). The only time I might use an LCD if it had one is for macro shots when the camera is tripod mounted.

Mark

dino19723 · Aug 2, 2000

That's why I bought a Sony D770, SLR. It's what I know. Work in tighter spaces. (when the manual focus works) I can focus much faster then auto focus.

Xtraz said:
Paul Caldwell said:

SLR= Single Len Reflex = any camera that allows you to view what the
lens is viewing through a viewfinder. Of course with the new digital
cameras, you can view what the lens is seeing via a LCD. Real time and
you can observe changes to the shot via the LCD.
Examples of a Digial SLR, Nikon D1, Kodal 315, 330, 520, 620
Upcoming Canon D30, Fuji S1

So far none of these will let you shoot with LCD however to me if you
want a SLR, then you might not care about this. I would like the freedom
to do both. I was amazed how much I have changed. I have been shooting
with the Nikon 950 and 990 for over a year and hardly ever using my older
35mm gear. I was outdoors the other day, and picked up my 35mm and found
myself holding it away from my face as I would be holding the Nikon 990.
Obviously, the technology to allow you to see the image in the viewfinder
and LCD is way to costly, it would require some form of realtime pass
through as in your SLR you are seeing via th mirror. The image in the
mirror will have to pass through to the CCD. I expect to see this in a
year or so since the lower priced digital cameras can so it now.

Click to expand...

JCDoss · Aug 2, 2000

Mark B. said:
...I still prefer my Canon, and I like holding it close. The main reason is
stability - I can hold the camera better when it's close (I don't have
any IS lenses). The only time I might use an LCD if it had one is for
macro shots when the camera is tripod mounted.

I agree completely. I hope that the next wave of digital SLR's have some sort of LCD preview for just such an occasion. Adjustable LCD's like you see on camcorders or the Pro70 would be incredibly useful for macros, self-portraits, studio work, or any other instance where your face is more than 1mm from the camera. It's an infrequently used option, but an unbelievably useful one when it's needed.

JCDoss

Chris Friesen · Aug 3, 2000

Mike F. said:
You are confusing Through the lens (TTL) with Single Lens Reflex (SLR).
An SLR is only as I described it above. SLRs are related to Twin Lens
Reflex cameras, which use two lenses - one for the view finder (which
uses mirrors to deflect the image onto a screen, and one for the film.

I've been into photography for a while now, and I know what the distinction between a single and twin lens reflex camera is. I am, however, curious as to the distinction between a TTL camera and an SLR camera. My understanding of TTL was that it meant that metering was done on the image coming in through the lens--hence the use of TTL to describe some viewfinder cameras. In the case of a digital camera where there is no optical viewfinder, the image on the LCD must come from the CCD--how is this not equivalent to an image projected on a matte screen?

Chris

Michael F. · Aug 3, 2000

TTL is, as you said, through the lens. It is not single or twin lens REFLEX, which, based on my understanding, means that the image is reflcted through either a mirror, a prism or both to another plane to view prior to taking a picture. The distinction is pretty technical, in my opinion, since all of my digital cameras, by providing a TTL image thru the LCD screen, give me essentially the same thing. As a photographer, I want to know as closely as possible what my result will look like before I push the shutter button. I get that either thru an SLR or a TTL technology.

Mike

Chris Friesen said:
I've been into photography for a while now, and I know what the
distinction between a single and twin lens reflex camera is. I am,
however, curious as to the distinction between a TTL camera and an SLR
camera. My understanding of TTL was that it meant that metering was done
on the image coming in through the lens--hence the use of TTL to describe
some viewfinder cameras. In the case of a digital camera where there is
no optical viewfinder, the image on the LCD must come from the CCD--how
is this not equivalent to an image projected on a matte screen?

Chris

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