Bad sharpness with Nikkor 24-85 AFS

I was on vacation alone. I had Fuji S2 with Nikkor 24-85 AFS lens and tripod. I took a lot of pictures of myself using tripod, 24 mm focus, manual focusing which was almost always set to 15 feet. Almost always there was a sunny day and exposure was about 1/250-1/500 with apperture 5.6-11.0.

I was thinking that the set of those parameters will garranty me pretty good sharpness. But almost all pictures are blurry. I used this lens before, but probably with different (bigger) focal length (maybe 50mm), and I was happy with sharpness. Now I'm not. What was wrong? Does this lens produce good sharpness with at 24mm? Or I did wrong something else.
You can see pictures I'm talking about at
http://www.vchapran.com/vladdatepictures.asp?TakenDateID=166
Almost all of them were sharpened but they are still not sharp.
Thank you
Vlad

--
http://www.vchapran.com

Hi Vlad, at this image size it is very hard to see softness. If anything it looks like they were a little oversharpened by the program used to resize them for the web.

About the only ones I can comment on are these three, which appear to be focused on the background behind the off-center subject

http://www.vchapran.com/vladimages/gl111702-1803.jpg
http://www.vchapran.com/vladimages/vl111702-1767.jpg
http://www.vchapran.com/vladimages/gl111702-1753.jpg

Regards,

Matt

Vlad said:

I was on vacation alone. I had Fuji S2 with Nikkor 24-85 AFS lens
and tripod. I took a lot of pictures of myself using tripod, 24 mm
focus, manual focusing which was almost always set to 15 feet.
Almost always there was a sunny day and exposure was about
1/250-1/500 with apperture 5.6-11.0.
I was thinking that the set of those parameters will garranty me
pretty good sharpness. But almost all pictures are blurry. I used
this lens before, but probably with different (bigger) focal length
(maybe 50mm), and I was happy with sharpness. Now I'm not. What was
wrong? Does this lens produce good sharpness with at 24mm? Or I did
wrong something else.
You can see pictures I'm talking about at
http://www.vchapran.com/vladdatepictures.asp?TakenDateID=166
Almost all of them were sharpened but they are still not sharp.
Thank you
Vlad

--
http://www.vchapran.com

Click to expand...

--
Matt

Matt,
Thank you.

Yes, I had to sharpen almost all images. If the images were focused behind the subject then I'm just wondering why? As I said I used manual setting for distance, it was almost always 15 feet. I used to stand or sit approximately 15 feet away from the camera. What about depth of field. For 24 mm I believed everything from a couple of feet to the infinity should be sharp if I'm using apperture about 8.0.

So, maybe I have some problem with the lens and I need to test it in manual focus mode?
Anyway, thanks again
Vlad

Matt Chroust said:

About the only ones I can comment on are these three, which appear
to be focused on the background behind the off-center subject

http://www.vchapran.com/vladimages/gl111702-1803.jpg
http://www.vchapran.com/vladimages/vl111702-1767.jpg
http://www.vchapran.com/vladimages/gl111702-1753.jpg

Regards,

Matt

Vlad said:

I was on vacation alone. I had Fuji S2 with Nikkor 24-85 AFS lens
and tripod. I took a lot of pictures of myself using tripod, 24 mm
focus, manual focusing which was almost always set to 15 feet.
Almost always there was a sunny day and exposure was about
1/250-1/500 with apperture 5.6-11.0.
I was thinking that the set of those parameters will garranty me
pretty good sharpness. But almost all pictures are blurry. I used
this lens before, but probably with different (bigger) focal length
(maybe 50mm), and I was happy with sharpness. Now I'm not. What was
wrong? Does this lens produce good sharpness with at 24mm? Or I did
wrong something else.
You can see pictures I'm talking about at
http://www.vchapran.com/vladdatepictures.asp?TakenDateID=166
Almost all of them were sharpened but they are still not sharp.
Thank you
Vlad

--
http://www.vchapran.com

Click to expand...

--
Matt

Click to expand...

--
http://www.vchapran.com

I made a simple test for sharpness:
1. Manual focus of Nikkor 24-85 AFS, distance 1 meter
2. Apperture 8.0

3. Several packs of cigarettes were put on the floor, 1st one 1 meter away, 2nd one 2 meters away and so on

4. I made 1st shot with 24 mm, 2nd one with 35 mm, 3rd one with 50 mm and the last one with 70 mm.
5. I put all shots together.

You can see that although I did not change the distance setting on the lense the sharpnest place moves to the camera (marked with red) while I'm increasing the focal length. And as I see the scale of the lens is correct only for 70mm.

Is this the problem of my lens only or all Nikkor 24-85 AFS lenses have the same bad behavior or maybe even worse, all zooms do the same?



Thank you
Vlad

Vlad said:

I was on vacation alone. I had Fuji S2 with Nikkor 24-85 AFS lens
and tripod. I took a lot of pictures of myself using tripod, 24 mm
focus, manual focusing which was almost always set to 15 feet.
Almost always there was a sunny day and exposure was about
1/250-1/500 with apperture 5.6-11.0.
I was thinking that the set of those parameters will garranty me
pretty good sharpness. But almost all pictures are blurry. I used
this lens before, but probably with different (bigger) focal length
(maybe 50mm), and I was happy with sharpness. Now I'm not. What was
wrong? Does this lens produce good sharpness with at 24mm? Or I did
wrong something else.
You can see pictures I'm talking about at
http://www.vchapran.com/vladdatepictures.asp?TakenDateID=166
Almost all of them were sharpened but they are still not sharp.
Thank you
Vlad

--
http://www.vchapran.com

Click to expand...

--
http://www.vchapran.com

Bad sharp 24-85 f 2.8 ? it sees here
http://www.pbase.com/dinis/test_photos

Vlad said:

I was on vacation alone. I had Fuji S2 with Nikkor 24-85 AFS lens
and tripod. I took a lot of pictures of myself using tripod, 24 mm
focus, manual focusing which was almost always set to 15 feet.
Almost always there was a sunny day and exposure was about
1/250-1/500 with apperture 5.6-11.0.
I was thinking that the set of those parameters will garranty me
pretty good sharpness. But almost all pictures are blurry. I used
this lens before, but probably with different (bigger) focal length
(maybe 50mm), and I was happy with sharpness. Now I'm not. What was
wrong? Does this lens produce good sharpness with at 24mm? Or I did
wrong something else.
You can see pictures I'm talking about at
http://www.vchapran.com/vladdatepictures.asp?TakenDateID=166
Almost all of them were sharpened but they are still not sharp.
Thank you
Vlad

--
http://www.vchapran.com

Click to expand...

maybe I am wrong, but I think your Marlboro test demonstrates the relatively narrow depth of field when you are focussing from close in to the subject
you really need to stop up the aperture more, IMHO

your photos, by & large were sharp to my eye, though its very hard to tell at the size posted on your site...the few samples I saw were by & large exposure difficulties or lighting troubles and may have been improved with better settings

this is the great advantage of going RAW ...being able to correct for lighting post hoc is simply wonderful & the great advantage of the S2 for me ...whenever I encounter difficult lightling circumstances, I go RAW

you just have to learn what those circumstances are & a thoughtful review of the preview helps a lot

--
pbase supporter
http://www.pbase.com/artichoke

Everything I'm asking is: If I set the distance on the lens 1 meter and placed a subject 1 meter away from the camera, should I expect that the subject will be sharp regardless of the focal length?

In my case it's true for 75mm only, for lower focal length the subject located 1 meter away is not sharp anymore but subjects located more far (like 2 or 3 meters away) are sharp (one more time - the distance setting on the lens is constant, 1 meter).
Thank you
Vlad

Vlad said:

Thank you
Vlad

Vlad said:

I was on vacation alone. I had Fuji S2 with Nikkor 24-85 AFS lens
and tripod. I took a lot of pictures of myself using tripod, 24 mm
focus, manual focusing which was almost always set to 15 feet.
Almost always there was a sunny day and exposure was about
1/250-1/500 with apperture 5.6-11.0.
I was thinking that the set of those parameters will garranty me
pretty good sharpness. But almost all pictures are blurry. I used
this lens before, but probably with different (bigger) focal length
(maybe 50mm), and I was happy with sharpness. Now I'm not. What was
wrong? Does this lens produce good sharpness with at 24mm? Or I did
wrong something else.
You can see pictures I'm talking about at
http://www.vchapran.com/vladdatepictures.asp?TakenDateID=166
Almost all of them were sharpened but they are still not sharp.
Thank you
Vlad

--
http://www.vchapran.com

Click to expand...

--
http://www.vchapran.com

Click to expand...

--
http://www.vchapran.com

Vlad:

I am currently and thoroughly testing an S2 with the Nikkor 24-85mm AF-S and the Sigma 50mm f/2.8 EX Macro.

The following is a short description of the test methodology:

1. Test target: 1024x768 Laptop LCD screen with an ISO Resolution Chart at 100% view, in Photoshop, FULL screen.
2. Camera mounted in Tripod, self-timed (5 secs).
3. Tested focal lenghts: 24,35,50,70,85
4. Tested apertures at each focal length: f/5.6, f/6.7, f/8.0, f/9.5, f/11.0

5. Each picture is then opened in Photoshop, and measured for real resolution, via Nik's Sharpnener Real Resolution Index:
-EXCELLENT predictor of overall image quality
-Comprises both sharpness and contrast in a single measure

BEFORE each round, at each f length, the following steps are perfomed:

1. Camera focus targets are carefully and precisely aligned in specific ares of the LCD screen

2. Camera/LCD screen plane alignment is also verified to ensure minimal displacements and significant errors.

3. Focus is acquired via AutoFocus with Close Proximity overriden, in three attempts, and overall focus is verified via viewfinder.

4. Lens focus is carefully set to MANUAL focus

5. Visually confirming focus, again, for any potential displacement during AF-MF switch, and use same focus setting for ALL shots in any specific focal lenght.

Here are Nikkor 24-85mm AF-S results:

mm f/5.6 f/6.7 f/8.0 f/9.7 f/11.0 AVERAGE
24 263 283 289 280 274 ---> 277.80
35 265 293 313 311 298 ---> 296.00
50 226 243 261 267 265 ---> 252.40
70 208 241 254 269 276 ---> 249.60
85 245 269 289 293 289 ---> 277.00

Here are the Sigma 50mm f/2.8 EX Macro:

mm f/2.8 f/4.0 f/5.6 f/6.7 f/8.0 f/9.5 f/11 f/13 AVERAGE
50 296 328 357 346 339 322 307 280 364.25

TEST CONCLUSIONS:

1. The Nikkor 24-85mm AF-S is:
-24mm: VERY GOOD (f/6.7-9.7)
-35mm: EXCELLENT (f/6.7-11.0)
-50mm: AVERAGE (f/8.0-11.0)
-70mm: AVERAGE (f/9.7-11.0)
-85mm: VERY GOOD (f/8.0-11.0)

2. The Sigma 50mm f/2.8 Macro EX is:
-50mm: Heart-pumping performance. BEST in class.
-STELLAR sharpness, right from f/2.8 up to f/11.0!!!
-Equally good either CLOSE or FAR (infinity).

Best regards, and happy shooting,

Ferenc

Hi Vlad,

Many zoom lenses are not parfocal. I think I have the right term here but what it means is that if you focus on a subject at one zoom setting and then zoom to another the subject may go out of focus. A parfocal lens stays focused as you zoom back and forth.

On some zoom lenses you will see what looks like the normal index mark for subject distance but alongside it you may see another (shorter?) index mark. You use a different index mark depending on what zoom setting you are using.

The only safe way to manually focus non-parfocal lenses is to do it through the viewfinder and if you change the zoom then re-focus. (ie - focus where you will be then move into the picture - Hope this helps?
--
Doug Jones
Canberra
http://www.panamagic.com.au

Vlad said:

I was on vacation alone. I had Fuji S2 with Nikkor 24-85 AFS lens
and tripod. I took a lot of pictures of myself using tripod, 24 mm
focus, manual focusing which was almost always set to 15 feet.
Almost always there was a sunny day and exposure was about
1/250-1/500 with apperture 5.6-11.0.
I was thinking that the set of those parameters will garranty me
pretty good sharpness. But almost all pictures are blurry. I used
this lens before, but probably with different (bigger) focal length
(maybe 50mm), and I was happy with sharpness. Now I'm not. What was
wrong? Does this lens produce good sharpness with at 24mm? Or I did
wrong something else.
You can see pictures I'm talking about at
http://www.vchapran.com/vladdatepictures.asp?TakenDateID=166
Almost all of them were sharpened but they are still not sharp.
Thank you
Vlad

--
http://www.vchapran.com

Click to expand...

Doug,

This is the answer I was looking for. I was wondering if it's the problem with my current lens or with all Nikkor 24-85 AFS or even with all or many zooms.

You gave me the answer. I did not know that and took a lot of pictures during my vacation using manual focus with 24 mm focal length. Almost all of them have focus problem.
Thanks a lot again
Vlad

Doug Jones said:

Vlad said:

I was on vacation alone. I had Fuji S2 with Nikkor 24-85 AFS lens
and tripod. I took a lot of pictures of myself using tripod, 24 mm
focus, manual focusing which was almost always set to 15 feet.
Almost always there was a sunny day and exposure was about
1/250-1/500 with apperture 5.6-11.0.
I was thinking that the set of those parameters will garranty me
pretty good sharpness. But almost all pictures are blurry. I used
this lens before, but probably with different (bigger) focal length
(maybe 50mm), and I was happy with sharpness. Now I'm not. What was
wrong? Does this lens produce good sharpness with at 24mm? Or I did
wrong something else.
You can see pictures I'm talking about at
http://www.vchapran.com/vladdatepictures.asp?TakenDateID=166
Almost all of them were sharpened but they are still not sharp.
Thank you
Vlad

--
http://www.vchapran.com

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

--
http://www.vchapran.com

Vlad
I have also been having problems with my S2 and 17-35mm Nikon lens.

My problems seem to be similar to yours. I lose sharpness at the wider focal lengths. This has happened at f8 when the entire world should be in focus. I read with interest the test the other poster did with his zoom lens and prime lens. It seems I get better sharpness with my prime lenses. The 17-35mm f28 lens that I use is a very expensive lens and should not be giving me these kind of problems. I agree with you that you should not have sharpness problems at 24 mm and f8. I think it is a problem with the S2 chip. When I spoke to the Fuji rep he talked around the problem.

Is any one else having this kind of problem?

Vlad said:

Doug Jones said:

Vlad said:

I was on vacation alone. I had Fuji S2 with Nikkor 24-85 AFS lens
and tripod. I took a lot of pictures of myself using tripod, 24 mm
focus, manual focusing which was almost always set to 15 feet.
Almost always there was a sunny day and exposure was about
1/250-1/500 with apperture 5.6-11.0.
I was thinking that the set of those parameters will garranty me
pretty good sharpness. But almost all pictures are blurry. I used
this lens before, but probably with different (bigger) focal length
(maybe 50mm), and I was happy with sharpness. Now I'm not. What was
wrong? Does this lens produce good sharpness with at 24mm? Or I did
wrong something else.
You can see pictures I'm talking about at
http://www.vchapran.com/vladdatepictures.asp?TakenDateID=166
Almost all of them were sharpened but they are still not sharp.
Thank you
Vlad

--
http://www.vchapran.com

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

--
http://www.vchapran.com

Click to expand...

Vlad,

I looked at quite a few of your vacation photos. I understand you when you said you used "manual focusing which was almost always set to 15 feet". Scale-focusing with a zoom lens can sometimes be a tricky business.
I have to agree with Doug Jones, when he wrote:

"If you focus on a subject at one> zoom setting and then zoom to another the subject may go out of> focus."

This is called focus shift, and some zoom lenses have significant focus shift, despite designer efforts to minimize focus shift. The difference between a "Variable Focal Length lens" and a "Zoom lens" is indeed the parfocal nature of the zoom. We seldom see variable focal length lenses any more--the last one I had was the excellent Vivitar Series 1 35-85mm f/2.8 about 18 years ago. It was a "Variable Focal Length" lens--NOT a true "zoom lens".In a VFL lens, the focus shift as focal length is changed,and you must to re-focus after each focal length change. By the mid-1980's VFL's had lost favor, but they were the first way we were able to get f/2.8 max apertures that stayed constant as the focal legnth changed. Computer design aided the development of better,faster zoom designs, and nowadays almost nobody remembers the VFL days.

The Variable Focal Length lens is easier to make than the true Zoom. Zooms demand a lot of complex mechanical camming and optical tweaking.

What some people don't know is that a "zoom lens" isn't one that changes focal lengths, but one that ATTEMPTS to keep focus the same AS THE LENS LENGTH CHANGES. The distinction is either subtle or obvious,depending on your background.

Focus shift can be SEVERE at times with "some" zooms. I have an old AF 35-70 Nikkor that exhibits DRAMATIC and SEVERE focus shift--the focus distances on the barrel are woefully inaccurate at most settings,and the scale is almost worthless....I must focus this lens at each focal length to ensure accurate focus. I don't use this lens very frequently,needless to say. It can make sharp photos when focused using AF or visual hand-powered focus, but the scale distances are largely irrelevant. This is an old,cheap 3.3~4.5 model I got used a few years ago as a knockabout lens for fishing trips and other "hazardous duty". Sharp enough at f/8 to f/11, but it has severe focus shift as the lens is zoomed. It has the worst focus shift I have ever seen in ANY zoom.

That's the problem with focus shift---the scale becomes an approximate reference point--which is to say,almost useless. A moving,shifting "reference point" isn't worth much!

If you have read any exhaustive,scientific testing of zoom lenses, focus shift can occur 1) if the lens is zoomed, or 2) when the lens is stopped down to taking aperture, or at times, 3) in both situations. It's an unfortunate reality. In modern designs, focus shift is usually slight--but not always! Lens makers do not really talk a lot about this problem, and it is usually not that big of a problem when the camera is focused before each shot by either the AF system or by hand/eye judgement. The problem comes into play when the lens is scale-focused. The scale's just not accurate enough at "some focal lengths".

Bottom line: Some of today's "zoom lenses" are just a hair better at maintaining their focus as were old,good Variable Focal Length Lenses. "Some" of today's modern zooms are more like Variable Focal Length lenses than true zoom lens designs.
--
Happy Shooting!
Derrel

Thanks Derrel.

Now I understand my problem. I just new nothing about that shift and because AF is useless with self timer I used old method (manual setting by using scale). The result is bad.
Vlad

Derrel said:

Vlad,
I looked at quite a few of your vacation photos. I understand you
when you said you used "manual focusing which was almost always
set to 15 feet". Scale-focusing with a zoom lens can sometimes be a
tricky business.
I have to agree with Doug Jones, when he wrote:

Click to expand...

"If you focus on a

Derrel87035 said:

subject at one> zoom setting and then zoom to another the subject
may go out of> focus."
This is called focus shift, and some zoom lenses have significant
focus shift, despite designer efforts to minimize focus shift. The
difference between a "Variable Focal Length lens" and a "Zoom lens"
is indeed the parfocal nature of the zoom. We seldom see variable
focal length lenses any more--the last one I had was the excellent
Vivitar Series 1 35-85mm f/2.8 about 18 years ago. It was a
"Variable Focal Length" lens--NOT a true "zoom lens".In a VFL lens,
the focus shift as focal length is changed,and you must to re-focus
after each focal length change. By the mid-1980's VFL's had lost
favor, but they were the first way we were able to get f/2.8 max
apertures that stayed constant as the focal legnth changed.
Computer design aided the development of better,faster zoom
designs, and nowadays almost nobody remembers the VFL days.
The Variable Focal Length lens is easier to make than the true
Zoom. Zooms demand a lot of complex mechanical camming and optical
tweaking.
What some people don't know is that a "zoom lens" isn't one that
changes focal lengths, but one that ATTEMPTS to keep focus the same
AS THE LENS LENGTH CHANGES. The distinction is either subtle or
obvious,depending on your background.
Focus shift can be SEVERE at times with "some" zooms. I have an old
AF 35-70 Nikkor that exhibits DRAMATIC and SEVERE focus shift--the
focus distances on the barrel are woefully inaccurate at most
settings,and the scale is almost worthless....I must focus this
lens at each focal length to ensure accurate focus. I don't use
this lens very frequently,needless to say. It can make sharp photos
when focused using AF or visual hand-powered focus, but the scale
distances are largely irrelevant. This is an old,cheap 3.3~4.5
model I got used a few years ago as a knockabout lens for fishing
trips and other "hazardous duty". Sharp enough at f/8 to f/11, but
it has severe focus shift as the lens is zoomed. It has the worst
focus shift I have ever seen in ANY zoom.
That's the problem with focus shift---the scale becomes an
approximate reference point--which is to say,almost useless. A
moving,shifting "reference point" isn't worth much!
If you have read any exhaustive,scientific testing of zoom lenses,
focus shift can occur 1) if the lens is zoomed, or 2) when the lens
is stopped down to taking aperture, or at times, 3) in both
situations. It's an unfortunate reality. In modern designs, focus
shift is usually slight--but not always! Lens makers do not really
talk a lot about this problem, and it is usually not that big of a
problem when the camera is focused before each shot by either the
AF system or by hand/eye judgement. The problem comes into play
when the lens is scale-focused. The scale's just not accurate
enough at "some focal lengths".
Bottom line: Some of today's "zoom lenses" are just a hair better
at maintaining their focus as were old,good Variable Focal Length
Lenses. "Some" of today's modern zooms are more like Variable Focal
Length lenses than true zoom lens designs.
--
Happy Shooting!
Derrel

Click to expand...

--
http://www.vchapran.com

I just posted a topic, when I read your complaint, Vlad.

I asked Fuji about a similar issue, and they said I might have to have my LENS'S IC controller chip updated. Not at all a nice surprise! I really hope this is not the case, otherwise I am back to emptying my wallet again.

Sjoerd

Vlad said:

I was on vacation alone. I had Fuji S2 with Nikkor 24-85 AFS lens
and tripod. I took a lot of pictures of myself using tripod, 24 mm
focus, manual focusing which was almost always set to 15 feet.
Almost always there was a sunny day and exposure was about
1/250-1/500 with apperture 5.6-11.0.
I was thinking that the set of those parameters will garranty me
pretty good sharpness. But almost all pictures are blurry. I used
this lens before, but probably with different (bigger) focal length
(maybe 50mm), and I was happy with sharpness. Now I'm not. What was
wrong? Does this lens produce good sharpness with at 24mm? Or I did
wrong something else.
You can see pictures I'm talking about at
http://www.vchapran.com/vladdatepictures.asp?TakenDateID=166
Almost all of them were sharpened but they are still not sharp.
Thank you
Vlad

--
http://www.vchapran.com

Click to expand...