What about the other makes of DSLRs? What do they use? Sorry for asking such a seemingly fundamental question, but I was born and bred on EOS 
GregY
GregY
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Why I love ETTL? (samples)
- Thread starter Guillaume in Paris
- Start date
Michel26604
Leading Member
A quote from the imaging resource D30 review ( http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/D30/D30P.HTM ):
The TTL (through the lens) flash sensor resides at the top of the camera, behind the pentaprism. Here, a small mirror and lens pick off a portion of the light passing to the viewfinder. (Note that this is before the focusing elements of the viewfinder optics, so it achieves more area coverage than you might expect.) The light reflects from a mirror, passes through a lens, and thence to the photodiode that measures returning flash energy. This design requires a pre-flash for metering, but is the same system used by other EOS cameras. This means that all EOS-compatible Canon flash units will be fully functional with the EOS D30. This approach also avoids the difficulties inherent in adapting camera designs based on Off-The-Film (OTF) flash metering. The disadvantage is that the metering occurs a small fraction of a second before the shutter opens. The strong advantage though is that it alleviates problems relating to differences between sensor and film reflectivity. (We found the flash metering of the D30 to be exceptionally accurate.)
--
gr. Michel
The TTL (through the lens) flash sensor resides at the top of the camera, behind the pentaprism. Here, a small mirror and lens pick off a portion of the light passing to the viewfinder. (Note that this is before the focusing elements of the viewfinder optics, so it achieves more area coverage than you might expect.) The light reflects from a mirror, passes through a lens, and thence to the photodiode that measures returning flash energy. This design requires a pre-flash for metering, but is the same system used by other EOS cameras. This means that all EOS-compatible Canon flash units will be fully functional with the EOS D30. This approach also avoids the difficulties inherent in adapting camera designs based on Off-The-Film (OTF) flash metering. The disadvantage is that the metering occurs a small fraction of a second before the shutter opens. The strong advantage though is that it alleviates problems relating to differences between sensor and film reflectivity. (We found the flash metering of the D30 to be exceptionally accurate.)
--
gr. Michel
hyslopc1
Active member
Here in Sweden it's around the same price as you paid for your 420EX: $AUD500. Seems pretty reasonable based on the specs.
In fact now this has gotten me interested: since the Metz supports both E-TTL and thyristor flash, what's the downside to it?
In fact now this has gotten me interested: since the Metz supports both E-TTL and thyristor flash, what's the downside to it?
I don't think I will be giving up on it so soon
tonights tests have shown me that a good thyristor style flash unit
needs to be added to my kit also.
There are times when the 420EX is great... like fill flash outdoors
or in the studio for eg.
However, in point & shoot in situations when ambient light is not
important, a good thyristor would come into it's own.
Many have suggested the Metz (54mz3 I think??) but that is way too
much money. What I want is something a bit cheaper that will still
provide auto and manual settings plus a tilt/swivel head and zoom??
I am off to search for one now.... if anyone can make my search
easier it would be appreciated.
Russell
Yea, I do. E-mail me if you want to sell itAnybody want to by a VERY slightly used 420EX??
-John
MrX
Leading Member
Sometimes I feel it like that, but the more I use the system the better results I get. Here are some gig photos taken a couple of weeks back:
http://www.AdrianJudd.org.uk
Of the Whitby Nov 2002 photos, most were taken with the flash set to -1. The Last Rites pics were -2 and I'll stay with that in future to try and get as much stage lighting as possible.
At the beginning of the night I used FEL, but the more I drank (it was my holiday!) the less I used it. Looking at the photos it's hard to tell which I used FEL for and which weren't. For The Sperm Whale shots I knew the white might be a problem, so I always used FEL.
[shots taken at ISO800 pushed to 1600 later*, Tv 125 or 90, 24-70 2.8, levels adjusted to help cancel out the flash bouncing off the smoke]
lata,
--
------
Mr X.
[email protected]
http://www.DreamingInDigital.org.uk
mainly when the flash was -2
JohnM31499
Veteran Member
S
Steve Mason
Guest
My 550EX is great for fill flash when shooting outdoors, but for gatherings parties etc, it drives me to drink. I don't mind the odd underexposure, but the blown whites make me crazy.
Solution, Vivitar 283. Great flash, fairly inexpensive.
Solution, Vivitar 283. Great flash, fairly inexpensive.
Thanks for the quote. Nice text.
Ok, I said there is no sensor to use for TTL.
Maybe I should have said that there is no sensor to measure the light when the shutter curtain is open and the mirror is flipped.
The sensor you're talking about measures the light of the preflash before the shutter opens. But we wanna get rid of this preflash, and use TTL functionality, which is not possible.
Agree?
The Netherlands
GC-S5 - 990 - G2 - D60 ( BG-ED3 - 28-135 - 70-200F4 - 550EX )
http://www.fotoexpo.tk
Ok, I said there is no sensor to use for TTL.
Maybe I should have said that there is no sensor to measure the light when the shutter curtain is open and the mirror is flipped.
The sensor you're talking about measures the light of the preflash before the shutter opens. But we wanna get rid of this preflash, and use TTL functionality, which is not possible.
Agree?
Marcel D.
The Netherlands
GC-S5 - 990 - G2 - D60 ( BG-ED3 - 28-135 - 70-200F4 - 550EX )
http://www.fotoexpo.tk
I have no idea, to be honest. Like I said, I'm also curious how it's done, when it's possible on other D-SLR cams.What about the other makes of DSLRs? What do they use? Sorry for
asking such a seemingly fundamental question, but I was born and
bred on EOS
Anyone?
Marcel D.
The Netherlands
GC-S5 - 990 - G2 - D60 ( BG-ED3 - 28-135 - 70-200F4 - 550EX )
http://www.fotoexpo.tk
hyslopc1
Active member
I take it you mean it doesn't support Canon's wireless flash technology. It won't work with my 550EX either, right?
Right.
You can get wireless SCA adapters, but then you don't have the AF beam afain.
The Netherlands
GC-S5 - 990 - G2 - D60 ( BG-ED3 - 28-135 - 70-200F4 - 550EX )
http://www.fotoexpo.tk
You can get wireless SCA adapters, but then you don't have the AF beam afain.
Marcel D.
The Netherlands
GC-S5 - 990 - G2 - D60 ( BG-ED3 - 28-135 - 70-200F4 - 550EX )
http://www.fotoexpo.tk
Guillaume in Paris
Senior Member
yes, nice. but gothic! i can't stand that...
i understand why you shoot at -2 for flash... gothic = black = overexposure!
which camera and flash do you own?
ahhhhh, smoke... i'm fighting against smoke very often in the clubs!! levels help but you lose most of the light in the image when cutting the smoke...
damn, why do they put so much smoke everywhere? don't they think about us, poor photographers with flashes?
--
http://www.at-sight.com
Sports & general event photography
i understand why you shoot at -2 for flash... gothic = black = overexposure!
which camera and flash do you own?
ahhhhh, smoke... i'm fighting against smoke very often in the clubs!! levels help but you lose most of the light in the image when cutting the smoke...
damn, why do they put so much smoke everywhere? don't they think about us, poor photographers with flashes?
--
http://www.at-sight.com
Sports & general event photography
BigBird113522
Well-known member
I find that I generally require +2/3 Falsh Compensation to achieve
good results, unless my focus point falls on a 18% grey type of
subject, if it does my image will now be over-exposed by 2/3 stop.
Using FEL is a real pain in the butt! (for me... I know some of you
like it
fire away, doing event photography by the time you have FELed the
shot is long gone.
evaluative ETTL???? I have not been able to make my D60/420EX
perform in anyway like evaluative. I have run heaps of tests in MF
etc and all the results are just the same.
Having said that.... the EX series of flash units are compatible
with non-ETTL bodies like the EOS1 (which I had). So while it
performs as ETTL on a D60 it will automagically perform as TTL on
the EOS1.
How does it know that it is on an ETTL body??? Can I trick it to
think that it always on a TTL body even when it is on a ETTL
body??? Can Canon modify the D60 firmware to give us a choice of
ETTL/TTL???
I REALLY hope the later is possible. (Hello Canon!!!!
My mate runs a 540EX on his D60 and has no problems. I think he
may use manual mode, which unfortunately the 420EX does not
offer.... I will ask what he does and if manual mode is the answer
I will get a 550 tomorrow... because (for me
Russell
PS... I used to have a G2 and the 420EX performs PERFECTLY on it.
Direct flash or fill, I ALWAYS got spot-on exposures..... I assume
that the G2 used a larger area to sample the pre-flash, rather than
a tiny focus point.
BigBird113522
Well-known member
I have just purchased a 420ex and have never used a dedicated flash with a camera before, I alway shoot during the day and if a need light I will just reflect witha white card board or something.
I was reading this and am all confused... what is TTL and ETTL and flash compensation +2/3?
Would you be kind enough to explain that to me? I tried the flash at dim light in my home and it doen't seem to bright... I can kind of get better pictures with the built in flash...
Thanks
I was reading this and am all confused... what is TTL and ETTL and flash compensation +2/3?
Would you be kind enough to explain that to me? I tried the flash at dim light in my home and it doen't seem to bright... I can kind of get better pictures with the built in flash...
Thanks
I find that I generally require +2/3 Falsh Compensation to achieve
good results, unless my focus point falls on a 18% grey type of
subject, if it does my image will now be over-exposed by 2/3 stop.
Using FEL is a real pain in the butt! (for me... I know some of you
like it
fire away, doing event photography by the time you have FELed the
shot is long gone.
evaluative ETTL???? I have not been able to make my D60/420EX
perform in anyway like evaluative. I have run heaps of tests in MF
etc and all the results are just the same.
Having said that.... the EX series of flash units are compatible
with non-ETTL bodies like the EOS1 (which I had). So while it
performs as ETTL on a D60 it will automagically perform as TTL on
the EOS1.
How does it know that it is on an ETTL body??? Can I trick it to
think that it always on a TTL body even when it is on a ETTL
body??? Can Canon modify the D60 firmware to give us a choice of
ETTL/TTL???
I REALLY hope the later is possible. (Hello Canon!!!!
My mate runs a 540EX on his D60 and has no problems. I think he
may use manual mode, which unfortunately the 420EX does not
offer.... I will ask what he does and if manual mode is the answer
I will get a 550 tomorrow... because (for me
Russell
PS... I used to have a G2 and the 420EX performs PERFECTLY on it.
Direct flash or fill, I ALWAYS got spot-on exposures..... I assume
that the G2 used a larger area to sample the pre-flash, rather than
a tiny focus point.
BigBird113522
Well-known member
Do you think this "elcheapo" would work better in a wedding reception than the 420ex?
Thanks!!!
Thanks!!!
After reading your post I dug through my "old fart's" ....I mean
"old parts" box and found an elcheapo Achiever 115A Auto Flash.
Still like brand new and in the box.... I forget why I even have
it??
Anyway, I wacked it on the D60 and nothing! :-( Ok, try the PC
cable... and YIPPEE it fires!! But surely it cannot do better than
my AUD500 (that's Australian $) 420EX....
Well I just balsted off 20 shots of anything in the room.... dark
lounge, medium toned wall, even a white box with some colour pics
on it and EVERY B L O O D Y ONE of them is SPOT ON!!!!
Anybody want to by a VERY slightly used 420EX??
Russell
Russell Stewart
Senior Member
Yes I think it would work well. It's just like my Metz 60 CT1 used to be on my EOS1. It simply gives a full on flash exposure and does not try to do anything clever. So like in the "good ol' days" if you want to use it as fill or use it together with ambient light, you need to set the auto level a stop or 2 under. If you leave it set at f8 and shoot at f8 you simply get a normal full flash exposure.
So I think there is a case to have both an ETTL and Auto Thyristor flash in one's camera bag.
The Auto Thyristor flash units are as "cheap as chips" too because you don't need to by one with TTL (it won't work with an ETTL D60 anyway), plus many have them have a manual zoom rather than paying for electronic.
Personally I would still like an electronic zoom, but I am not sure if you can get that without the extra $$ of going to a TTL flash. I am gunna go down my local camera shop and see what works with my D60.
Russell
Thanks!!!
After reading your post I dug through my "old fart's" ....I mean
"old parts" box and found an elcheapo Achiever 115A Auto Flash.
Still like brand new and in the box.... I forget why I even have
it??
Anyway, I wacked it on the D60 and nothing! :-( Ok, try the PC
cable... and YIPPEE it fires!! But surely it cannot do better than
my AUD500 (that's Australian $) 420EX....
Well I just balsted off 20 shots of anything in the room.... dark
lounge, medium toned wall, even a white box with some colour pics
on it and EVERY B L O O D Y ONE of them is SPOT ON!!!!
Anybody want to by a VERY slightly used 420EX??
Russell
Russell Stewart
Senior Member
I was reading this and am all confused... what is TTL and ETTL and
flash compensation +2/3?
Would you be kind enough to explain that to me? I tried the flash
at dim light in my home and it doen't seem to bright... I can kind
of get better pictures with the built in flash...
Thanks
I find that I generally require +2/3 Falsh Compensation to achieve
good results, unless my focus point falls on a 18% grey type of
subject, if it does my image will now be over-exposed by 2/3 stop.
Using FEL is a real pain in the butt! (for me... I know some of you
like it
fire away, doing event photography by the time you have FELed the
shot is long gone.
evaluative ETTL???? I have not been able to make my D60/420EX
perform in anyway like evaluative. I have run heaps of tests in MF
etc and all the results are just the same.
Having said that.... the EX series of flash units are compatible
with non-ETTL bodies like the EOS1 (which I had). So while it
performs as ETTL on a D60 it will automagically perform as TTL on
the EOS1.
How does it know that it is on an ETTL body??? Can I trick it to
think that it always on a TTL body even when it is on a ETTL
body??? Can Canon modify the D60 firmware to give us a choice of
ETTL/TTL???
I REALLY hope the later is possible. (Hello Canon!!!!
My mate runs a 540EX on his D60 and has no problems. I think he
may use manual mode, which unfortunately the 420EX does not
offer.... I will ask what he does and if manual mode is the answer
I will get a 550 tomorrow... because (for me
Russell
PS... I used to have a G2 and the 420EX performs PERFECTLY on it.
Direct flash or fill, I ALWAYS got spot-on exposures..... I assume
that the G2 used a larger area to sample the pre-flash, rather than
a tiny focus point.
Russell Stewart
Senior Member
I don't know what happened to that last post of mine, but here it is again....
OK... in a nutshell, TTL reads the flash light "Through The Lens" during the exposure and turns of the flash off when it has enough.
ETTL fires a pre-flash BEFORE the exposure, calculates how much flash is required and then opens the shutter and fires the flash for real.
You would think that both systems would expose the same but they don't due to the small "spot" area that ETTL bases it's reading on.
Now this small area can be good sometimes, as it can look past foreground objects etc and base it's exposure on what you tell it. But the fact that the sensor area is so small (it uses the D60 focus point only) it can easily be tricked by the subject colour and how much light it reflects back.
ie a white subject will reflect more light back and the the image will be underexposed. A black subject will refelct very little light back and the image will be overexposed. So you need to always have your focus point on something about 18% neutral.
Now this is not always possible, since you need the focus point on what you want to focus on and this may not be the 18% that you require. So in this case you would use FEL (Flash Exposure Lock) by manually fireing the pre-flash, this is recorded into camera memory and then you can re-compose and shoot. This is the "pain the butt" part since you have to do it for EVERY exposure and you don't always have time.
In contrast the TTL system looks at a much greater area and this represents more like an 18%, hense your exposures are more consistent.
Flash compensation?? This is a camera control that allows you to manually override the flash exposure, but adding or subtracting from what ETTL has decided to use.
Confused?? I am!!
Russell
Guillaume in Paris
Senior Member
I hate ETTL when it underexposes for no apparent reason. But i love it when it gives this (extreme backlight conditions yet the flash exposed perfectly)
Go figure...?!$#*
--
http://www.at-sight.com
Sports & general event photography
Go figure...?!$#*
--
http://www.at-sight.com
Sports & general event photography
BigBird113522
Well-known member
Are you able to see this pre-flash? Does it fire automaticly? My pictures are coming extremaly dark, I have no idea what is the problem with the camera and 420ex. I have tried with the flash forward (which makes the darkest of the pictures), 45 and straight up and all other kind of setups and it just won't be right...
Where do you set these?
Is there a way to override the ETTL and shoot the flash at full power, like an automatic flash?
Thanks for the explanation.. I got it know! I jus't can't get good exposures, not even using FEL...
Russell Stewart
Senior Member
No not normally, it is fired a microsecond before the actual exposure takes place. You will see it however if you do a long exposure and have your flash set to "second curtain sync" in the custom functions. ie the flash goes of at the end of your exposure rather than at the start.
Make sure that your focus point is on a mid shade object and see what happens. BTW Make sure that you lock the camera to the centre focus point for the test, this will ensure that you are on the mid shade object.
You may also want to check that you don't have the 420 set High Speed Sync, as this can sometimes reduce the output.
Do you have a manual??
There is a * button next to your LCD screen on top of the camera, after pressing this you can use the dial on the back to adjust the compensation. The amount of compensation will be represented on the exposure bar graph in the LCD panel.Nope!
Not on a 420, you need a 550 to do that.ETTL does take some getting used to.... it can work really well, but often it is just not possible with certain shooting styles :-(
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