Very Strange Problem!!! F717---Help Please

I hexperinced this problem before I sent my F717 for HAL fix and I
still have this problem.

It happens once in a while only, comes and goes.

Please refer to DSC0076----DSC0081 and tell me what is going on. I
have added two pics before these problem pics and two pics after
this problem pics for comparison. Nothing was changed as far as
settings are concerned. I took over 50 pictures with the same
settings. All came out O.K. except these six. What happened to
these six pics ? This happened without any prior warning and went
away on its own.

Here is the lnik:

http://www.pbase.com/bharat/sony_f717_strange_problem

It took me two hours to fix-up these six problem pictures in PS.
They still are not accurate.

I will appreciate your feedback.

Bharat J. Sutaria
Bharat,

Take a look at the EXIF information below. Note the Flash information. This is EXIF from DCS00075 (Note: DCS00074 also had same information so I don't know if the flash information is relevent.... but it seems to indicate some kind of problem)

ExposureTime : 1/250Sec
FNumber : F4.0
ExposureProgram : Manual
ISOSpeedRatings : 100
ExifVersion : 0220
DateTimeOriginal : 2002:11:10 18:50:59
DateTimeDigitized : 2002:11:10 18:50:59
ComponentConfiguration : YCbCr
CompressedBitsPerPixel : 2/1 (bit/pixel)
ExposureBiasValue : EV0.0
MaxApertureValue : F2.0
MeteringMode : Division
LightSource : Unidentified
Flash : Fired(Compulsory/return light not detected)
FocalLength : 21.70(mm)
MakerNote : Unknown Format : 0Byte (Offset:434)
FlashPixVersion : 0100
ColorSpace : sRGB
ExifImageWidth : 2560
ExifImageHeight : 1920
ExifInteroperabilityOffset : 650
FileSource : DSC
SceneType : A directly photographed image
CustomRendered : Normal process
ExposureMode : Manual
WhiteBalance : Auto

--
Clickin & a-grinin,
Don
 
It took me two hours to fix-up these six problem pictures in PS.
They still are not accurate.
Sorry you've run into this which, as others are saying, sounds
ominously like a problem which was seen with early F707s and whose
underlying cause possibly goes right back to the F505.

For your reference, there's an easy way to get reasonably close to
a correct colour balance very quickly in Photoshop. If you start
with a white balance in PS you'll generally reduce the overall work
quite dramatically. It's described here, by Peter iNova, in this
site's Learn section:

http://www.dpreview.com/learn/Image_Techniques/Color_Correction_Speed_01.htm

Good luck with Sony!

Mike
Mike,

Thanks for info. If I knew this earlier, I could have saved a lot of time spent experimenting to get the right colors.

Thanks for the info.

Bharat
 
Again, my camera does not do this, and I am taking a lot of flash
shots. What you need is to call Sony to register your problem. If
others are having this problem too, they should do the same thing.
If only a few people are having the problem, it may be a batch
related problem, but that will never be known unless you call Sony.

--
Shay
Shay,

Wiseone also reported this problem in this thread. I will call Sony and report this issue.

Thanks for advice.

Bharat J. Sutaria
 
Bharat,

Take a look at the EXIF information below. Note the Flash
information. This is EXIF from DCS00075 (Note: DCS00074 also had
same information so I don't know if the flash information is
relevent.... but it seems to indicate some kind of problem)

ExposureTime : 1/250Sec
FNumber : F4.0
ExposureProgram : Manual
ISOSpeedRatings : 100
ExifVersion : 0220
DateTimeOriginal : 2002:11:10 18:50:59
DateTimeDigitized : 2002:11:10 18:50:59
ComponentConfiguration : YCbCr
CompressedBitsPerPixel : 2/1 (bit/pixel)
ExposureBiasValue : EV0.0
MaxApertureValue : F2.0
MeteringMode : Division
LightSource : Unidentified
Flash : Fired(Compulsory/return light not detected)
FocalLength : 21.70(mm)
MakerNote : Unknown Format : 0Byte (Offset:434)
FlashPixVersion : 0100
ColorSpace : sRGB
ExifImageWidth : 2560
ExifImageHeight : 1920
ExifInteroperabilityOffset : 650
FileSource : DSC
SceneType : A directly photographed image
CustomRendered : Normal process
ExposureMode : Manual
WhiteBalance : Auto

--
Clickin & a-grinin,
Don
Don,

Thanks for the info. I was expecting same EXIF info on all these pictures. I took 40 pictures in less than two hours with identical camera settings and identical external settings including distance of the object from the camera.

These problem pictures were in the middle of the batch. I did not change any settings prior to these problem pictures and did not change any settings after these problem pictures.

The problem hit me all of a sudden in middle of my picture taking and went away on its own. I hope, problem would have stayed with me giving me some time to think about it and experimenting with it. By the time I realized there is a problem, it went away.

Next time it happens, I would stop right away before proceeding with next picture and try to analyze it.

Thanks for the info,

Bharat J. Sutaria
 
manual metering in the 707/717 for flash photography and higher shutter speeds are just not very good. Even thou the camera sets itself to daylight WB when the flash is engaged it does seem to link its metering to the ambient light prior to flash. Ive seen a tiny bit of this with my ol 707 but not as severe as what you have here. This is what i suggest you do. Setup this same studio with same subjects or other or with just a big dark and white cloth if you want.

Take 1 pic with the darker cloth as you have with the subjects and look at the exposure. Then do the same with a white cloth and look at its exposure. Again, there may be a sight difference in the background illumination from the flash but not as severe as your others. try that.

Also, its best to keep your max shutter speed when using flash at 1/125 because the cam is just too freaky at higher speeds.
I think a combination of the dark clothing and high shutter speed is the prob.
Let me know what transpires. Ill try to duplicate this prob too.
I hexperinced this problem before I sent my F717 for HAL fix and I
still have this problem.

It happens once in a while only, comes and goes.

Please refer to DSC0076----DSC0081 and tell me what is going on. I
have added two pics before these problem pics and two pics after
this problem pics for comparison. Nothing was changed as far as
settings are concerned. I took over 50 pictures with the same
settings. All came out O.K. except these six. What happened to
these six pics ? This happened without any prior warning and went
away on its own.

Here is the lnik:

http://www.pbase.com/bharat/sony_f717_strange_problem

It took me two hours to fix-up these six problem pictures in PS.
They still are not accurate.

I will appreciate your feedback.

Bharat J. Sutaria
Bharat,

Take a look at the EXIF information below. Note the Flash
information. This is EXIF from DCS00075 (Note: DCS00074 also had
same information so I don't know if the flash information is
relevent.... but it seems to indicate some kind of problem)

ExposureTime : 1/250Sec
FNumber : F4.0
ExposureProgram : Manual
ISOSpeedRatings : 100
ExifVersion : 0220
DateTimeOriginal : 2002:11:10 18:50:59
DateTimeDigitized : 2002:11:10 18:50:59
ComponentConfiguration : YCbCr
CompressedBitsPerPixel : 2/1 (bit/pixel)
ExposureBiasValue : EV0.0
MaxApertureValue : F2.0
MeteringMode : Division
LightSource : Unidentified
Flash : Fired(Compulsory/return light not detected)
FocalLength : 21.70(mm)
MakerNote : Unknown Format : 0Byte (Offset:434)
FlashPixVersion : 0100
ColorSpace : sRGB
ExifImageWidth : 2560
ExifImageHeight : 1920
ExifInteroperabilityOffset : 650
FileSource : DSC
SceneType : A directly photographed image
CustomRendered : Normal process
ExposureMode : Manual
WhiteBalance : Auto

--
Clickin & a-grinin,
Don
--
Posting these days requires either dedication or medication...
cheers
Zip:P
 
whats affecting your blue cast is the incandescent light right above your subjects.
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sonydscf717/page14.asp

look at Phils test at f4, 1/250sec....kinda blue!

my post back in September
http://www.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1009&message=3334281
I hexperinced this problem before I sent my F717 for HAL fix and I
still have this problem.

It happens once in a while only, comes and goes.

Please refer to DSC0076----DSC0081 and tell me what is going on. I
have added two pics before these problem pics and two pics after
this problem pics for comparison. Nothing was changed as far as
settings are concerned. I took over 50 pictures with the same
settings. All came out O.K. except these six. What happened to
these six pics ? This happened without any prior warning and went
away on its own.

Here is the lnik:

http://www.pbase.com/bharat/sony_f717_strange_problem

It took me two hours to fix-up these six problem pictures in PS.
They still are not accurate.

I will appreciate your feedback.

Bharat J. Sutaria
Bharat,

Take a look at the EXIF information below. Note the Flash
information. This is EXIF from DCS00075 (Note: DCS00074 also had
same information so I don't know if the flash information is
relevent.... but it seems to indicate some kind of problem)

ExposureTime : 1/250Sec
FNumber : F4.0
ExposureProgram : Manual
ISOSpeedRatings : 100
ExifVersion : 0220
DateTimeOriginal : 2002:11:10 18:50:59
DateTimeDigitized : 2002:11:10 18:50:59
ComponentConfiguration : YCbCr
CompressedBitsPerPixel : 2/1 (bit/pixel)
ExposureBiasValue : EV0.0
MaxApertureValue : F2.0
MeteringMode : Division
LightSource : Unidentified
Flash : Fired(Compulsory/return light not detected)
FocalLength : 21.70(mm)
MakerNote : Unknown Format : 0Byte (Offset:434)
FlashPixVersion : 0100
ColorSpace : sRGB
ExifImageWidth : 2560
ExifImageHeight : 1920
ExifInteroperabilityOffset : 650
FileSource : DSC
SceneType : A directly photographed image
CustomRendered : Normal process
ExposureMode : Manual
WhiteBalance : Auto

--
Clickin & a-grinin,
Don
--
Posting these days requires either dedication or medication...
cheers
Zip:P
--
Posting these days requires either dedication or medication...
cheers
Zip:P
 
Bharat,

I inpected your photos. It appears that you were using the onboard
flash, plus an external one. If this is true, the onboard flash
chooses automatically its preset white balance (daylight?),
ignoring any other white balance setting.

If this is correct, I suggest that you send your camera, with this
set of photos, to Sony.

Regards and good luck, Yehuda
Yehuda,

You are right. I set Sony's internal flash "forced on" at high level. I used this flash to trigger my Digi-flash, set to trigger on 2nd flash of Sony's internal flash. The slave flash was pointed 45 degrees at the ceiling.

I used white balance set to "auto".

If there is something wrong with this set-up, all the 40 pictures should have BFS problem. I took 40 pictures in less than two hours. All the camera settings and external settings were identical including the distance of the subject from the camera.

This problem pictures are approximately at the middle of 40 pictures I took. The problem occured all of a sudden and went away.

I believe, when you use a flash, the internal pre-programmed white balance setting takes over and over-rides any other settings I might have. In this case, I had white balance set to "Auto".

Since I use a very high shutter speed of 1/250 seconds, the effect of all other ambient light is negligible. Only the flash light would prevail.

Based on my reading, the flash light is equivalent to sun light and the colors will be real.

Next time, instead of "auto" white balance, I will use "Daylight" when I am using a flash. I do not know if this would help.

Is it possible, the camera is going through the algorithm of white balance even when you are using a flash and camera knows you are using a flash? By using "daylight" white balance, I hope, camera would not go through the white balance algorithm and potentially come up with incorrect values.

I will let you know if this helps.

Thanks for your response,

Bharat J. Sutaria
 
look at Phils test at f4, 1/250sec....kinda blue!

my post back in September
http://www.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1009&message=3334281
manual metering in the 707/717 for flash photography and higher
shutter speeds are just not very good. Even thou the camera sets
itself to daylight WB when the flash is engaged it does seem to
link its metering to the ambient light prior to flash. Ive seen a
tiny bit of this with my ol 707 but not as severe as what you have
here. This is what i suggest you do. Setup this same studio with
same subjects or other or with just a big dark and white cloth if
you want.
Take 1 pic with the darker cloth as you have with the subjects and
look at the exposure. Then do the same with a white cloth and look
at its exposure. Again, there may be a sight difference in the
background illumination from the flash but not as severe as your
others. try that.
Also, its best to keep your max shutter speed when using flash at
1/125 because the cam is just too freaky at higher speeds.
I think a combination of the dark clothing and high shutter speed
is the prob.
Let me know what transpires. Ill try to duplicate this prob too.
Zipper,

Thanks for your response and suggestions.

I use very high shutter speed to minimize effect of any other ambient light and have the photo exposed to flash light only. This simplyfies post-processing since I have to deal with only one type of light only.

This worked very well with F707. It also worked with F717 except these five pictures in the middle of forty pictures. I used the same camera setting and same external settings including the distance of the subject from the camera for all those 40 pictures. The problem came and went away before I realized there was a problem.

I was under the impression that, when you are using a flash and camera knows about it since the flash setting was "forced on all the time", camera would stop "white balance" algorithm and set the white balance to pre-programmed fixed value.Apperently, this may not be the case. The color of the background and the color of the subject may be influencing the algorithm of white balance. It seems, the camera does not use a pre-programmed, pre-determined white balance when using a flash. I.E., it is allowing some biasing based on the subject colors and background colors.

Next time, I will set white balance to "Day light" when I am using a flash. I hope, this would make camera stop algorithm of white balance and leave it alone at "Day light".

Since flash light is equivalent to "Day light", it should work.

I will let you know what I found.

Thanks for your input,

Bharat J. Sutaria
 
But looking at the xif info in an earlier post, I think iy's interesting that I was shooting at 1/250 on flash (shutter pref) as well. I'm really hesitant about sending it back AGAIN. If it's occaisional I can live with it.

QUESTION: for those who had it happen with 707...did it get worse over time or remain about the same?
look at Phils test at f4, 1/250sec....kinda blue!

my post back in September
http://www.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1009&message=3334281
manual metering in the 707/717 for flash photography and higher
shutter speeds are just not very good. Even thou the camera sets
itself to daylight WB when the flash is engaged it does seem to
link its metering to the ambient light prior to flash. Ive seen a
tiny bit of this with my ol 707 but not as severe as what you have
here. This is what i suggest you do. Setup this same studio with
same subjects or other or with just a big dark and white cloth if
you want.
Take 1 pic with the darker cloth as you have with the subjects and
look at the exposure. Then do the same with a white cloth and look
at its exposure. Again, there may be a sight difference in the
background illumination from the flash but not as severe as your
others. try that.
Also, its best to keep your max shutter speed when using flash at
1/125 because the cam is just too freaky at higher speeds.
I think a combination of the dark clothing and high shutter speed
is the prob.
Let me know what transpires. Ill try to duplicate this prob too.
Zipper,

Thanks for your response and suggestions.

I use very high shutter speed to minimize effect of any other
ambient light and have the photo exposed to flash light only. This
simplyfies post-processing since I have to deal with only one type
of light only.

This worked very well with F707. It also worked with F717 except
these five pictures in the middle of forty pictures. I used the
same camera setting and same external settings including the
distance of the subject from the camera for all those 40 pictures.
The problem came and went away before I realized there was a
problem.

I was under the impression that, when you are using a flash and
camera knows about it since the flash setting was "forced on all
the time", camera would stop "white balance" algorithm and set
the white balance to pre-programmed fixed value.Apperently, this
may not be the case. The color of the background and the color of
the subject may be influencing the algorithm of white balance. It
seems, the camera does not use a pre-programmed, pre-determined
white balance when using a flash. I.E., it is allowing some
biasing based on the subject colors and background colors.

Next time, I will set white balance to "Day light" when I am
using a flash. I hope, this would make camera stop algorithm of
white balance and leave it alone at "Day light".

Since flash light is equivalent to "Day light", it should work.

I will let you know what I found.

Thanks for your input,

Bharat J. Sutaria
 
Is this something that was occasional or got worse with time. I've only had one or two so far and I really don't want to have to send it back AGAIN.
I hexperinced this problem before I sent my F717 for HAL fix and I
still have this problem.

It happens once in a while only, comes and goes.

Please refer to DSC0076----DSC0081 and tell me what is going on. I
have added two pics before these problem pics and two pics after
this problem pics for comparison. Nothing was changed as far as
settings are concerned. I took over 50 pictures with the same
settings. All came out O.K. except these six. What happened to
these six pics ? This happened without any prior warning and went
away on its own.

Here is the lnik:

http://www.pbase.com/bharat/sony_f717_strange_problem

It took me two hours to fix-up these six problem pictures in PS.
They still are not accurate.

I will appreciate your feedback.

Bharat J. Sutaria
 
Is this something that was occasional or got worse with time. I've
only had one or two so far and I really don't want to have to send
it back AGAIN.
It happened to me twice only. I have taken over 3000 flash pictures with 1/250 seconds, 4.0 aperture, and Sony's internal camera flash triggering my slave flash for main light. I like 1/250 second since it minimizes effect of any other ambient light. Post processing is easier since the exposure is flash light only.

It worked very well with F707. I was hoping the same with F717.

Since I know this happened, I will be watching for it. If it happens again, I will try white balance set for "day light" instead of "auto". It might help. Since flash light is "Day light", I hope, colors will be just fine.

I am like you. I really do not want to send my camera back again. Hoping I can find a way around this problem.

Bharat J. Sutaria
 
It happened to me twice only. I have taken over 3000 flash
pictures with 1/250 seconds, 4.0 aperture, and Sony's internal
camera flash triggering my slave flash for main light. I like
1/250 second since it minimizes effect of any other ambient light.
Post processing is easier since the exposure is flash light only.
WHOAAAAA!!!!
are you saying your using the pop-up flash as the trigger?????
It worked very well with F707. I was hoping the same with F717.

Since I know this happened, I will be watching for it. If it
happens again, I will try white balance set for "day light"
instead of "auto". It might help. Since flash light is "Day
light", I hope, colors will be just fine.
stop playing with the WB.

As soon as you enable the flash eith in auto or forced the WB within the camera sets itself to auto which is daylight. Anything you do with WB wont do squat
I am like you. I really do not want to send my camera back again.
Hoping I can find a way around this problem.

Bharat J. Sutaria
--
Posting these days requires either dedication or medication...
cheers
Zip:P
 
It took me two hours to fix-up these six problem pictures in PS.
They still are not accurate.
2 hours seems excessive................

Try "autolevels" in PS first, doesn't always work properly, but seemed to on your pics.

Reduces that 2 hours to about 6 mins.

Of course further balancing may be needed, but for your average shot or average Joe it is normally more than adequate.

Happy Snapping

Mad Dog (Aus)
 
WHOAAAAA!!!!
are you saying your using the pop-up flash as the trigger?????
Zipper,

Anything wrong using the onboard flash as trigger?

Yehuda
Zipper,

I have a Digi-flash which can be set to trigger on second flash of Sony's internal camera flash. I point this Digi-Flash 45 drgrees up pointing at ceiling to get evenly distributed bounced light. This flash overpowers small on-board Sony flash. I have been using camera and two flashes this way for last two years, starting with F707 and now with F717. I never experienced BFS syndrome with F707 (ofcourse after Sony fixed my F707). I was expecting the same with F717.

Another question: If flash light auto white balance = Day light white balance, what is wrong with setting the camera for day light white balance ? My assumption is, the Flash light auto white balance is day light white balance plus some biasing based on ambient light. If, the pre-flash measurement tells camera that ambient light is relatively stronger to have an impact on final white balance, the camera makes an allowance for this.

I am planning to do some experimentation to prove or dis-prove what I am assuming. I will let you know my findings about this.

Thank you,

Bharat J. Sutaria
 
It took me two hours to fix-up these six problem pictures in PS.
They still are not accurate.
2 hours seems excessive................

Try "autolevels" in PS first, doesn't always work properly, but
seemed to on your pics.

Reduces that 2 hours to about 6 mins.

Of course further balancing may be needed, but for your average
shot or average Joe it is normally more than adequate.

Happy Snapping
Mad Dog,

Thanks for the advice. If I can not resolve this F717 issue and problem comes back again, I will try this approach.

Thanks,

Bharat J. Sutaria
Mad Dog (Aus)
 
Zipper,

I have a Digi-flash which can be set to trigger on second flash of
Sony's internal camera flash. I point this Digi-Flash 45 drgrees
up pointing at ceiling to get evenly distributed bounced light.
This flash overpowers small on-board Sony flash. I have been using
camera and two flashes this way for last two years, starting with
F707 and now with F717. I never experienced BFS syndrome with F707
(ofcourse after Sony fixed my F707). I was expecting the same with
F717.
ok, i didnt know you were using the Dig-Flash flash unit. Now it makes sense.
Another question: If flash light auto white balance = Day light
white balance, what is wrong with setting the camera for day light
white balance ? My assumption is, the Flash light auto white
balance is day light white balance plus some biasing based on
ambient light. If, the pre-flash measurement tells camera that
ambient light is relatively stronger to have an impact on final
white balance, the camera makes an allowance for this.
ok, go ahead and set the WB to daylight. Do some test shots then do the same with other WB settings.

If you plan on doing a lot of flash work then i think an understanding of color temperture and what it does and means is required.

Tungsten and Incandescent lighting has a color temp of 3200-3600kelvin(approx). Flash/strobes have a color temp of 5200-5600kelvin. Normal daylight is 5200-5600kelvin while direct sunlight can be as high as 10000kelvin.
So, im gonna explain this with a relation to cars and speed.

Your indoors and the ighting your metering is going 3200 miles per hour. You set your cameras WB to shoot a pic at 3200 miles per hour (no flash) and the pic comes out properlyexposed. Both your car(camera) and the ambient light is racing together happily down the street at 3200miles perhour.

Now, you force the flash on your camera. The camera says whoa....theres a speeding car going 5600 miles perhour about to come so it sets itself to be able to catch up to this super fast car. The camera ignores all the other settings of WB cause its set at the factory to know when the flash is engaged that it has to spped up to 5600 miles per hourno matter what because if it goes any less (4000 or 4500 etc..) it will result in extreme overexposed photos.

So, the shutter gets pressed and a strobe comes racing at 5600mph. The camera sees this and also moves at 5600mph. Now you have 2 happy racers and a properly exposed photo.

What determines how long they race for is determined by the flash-to-subject distance whichis determined by the TTL in the onboard flash. BUT...your DigiFlash will NOT benefit from the TTL info cause it only reads the second flash and thus is just firing on command.

hope this helps
I am planning to do some experimentation to prove or dis-prove what
I am assuming. I will let you know my findings about this.

Thank you,

Bharat J. Sutaria
--
Posting these days requires either dedication or medication...
cheers
Zip:P
 
WHOAAAAA!!!!
are you saying your using the pop-up flash as the trigger?????
Zipper,

Anything wrong using the onboard flash as trigger?
yes, but he's just said hes using a dedicated strobe to fire on the
second flash (Digi) so all is ok.
Oh, I thought you were aware of this fact. You might remember that
Bharat is a very experienced user of flashes with his Sony's.

Yehuda
Yehuda,

Thanks for your comments about me. Yes, I am a very experienced user of flashes with Sony. The kind of pictures I take requires me to use flash all the time. I am the official photographer of a local Hindu temple in Houston. There is not enought light in many of the Temple's room. At times, I am 20 feet away from the main ceremonies. The Sony's onboard flash do not reach that far. So, I use Sony's onboard flash to trigger my Digi-flash. Since the children are always running around in Temple, I do not have the luxury of using studio type lights.

Anyway, back to my problem pictures. Do you think, Sony's "Auto white balance settings" when flash is used is not equivalent to "Day light white balace settings" ? I suspect, during the pre-flash, the camera calculates the white balance based on the combination of the ambient light and the flash light. Since, I fire the big external flash which the camera has no pre-knowledge of, the white balace calculation by the "Auto" setting of the camera is not accurate.

Ofcourse, this is an assumption on my part. As I said earlier, I am going to experiment to compare "Auto white balance" VS. "Day light white balace" setting. I will use Sony's internal flash and Digi-flash during this experiment.

I will let you know what I find.

Thanks,

Bharat J. Sutaria
 

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