No more DSLR...

I am glad that you pointed to all the nonobvious environmental costs of hybrids. Many of the batteries are based on Lithium. Mining that is extremely destructive enviromentally. Most of the Lithium will have to be imported, with the most abundant sources in places with almost no regulations e.g. Peru and Chile.
 
you would want to light fire with stones too. One can desire anything.
Fact is I have a medium choice and you do too.
Choice is good none is not.

Photography is a craft some like traditional ways film isn't going anywhere it's now a more niche market but survives for those who want it (which is great)

Lighting fires with stones is completely irrelevant but even that has a use!
your logic is indeed strange.
Ever heard of the word "democracy"
Ever heard of word business. It does not run by democracy. And it certainly not run to please one person. (in this case you).

so the point again is you may want what you want. Someone would provide to you is not your choice.
Imagine an election with only one candidate the choice is to vote or not. Sound good? thought not

Apply the same to cameras and I think the message is clear. Simply put if you like EVF's and SLT that is great no problems. Just don't try to inflict your choice on me simple stuff really ;-)
--
::> I make spelling mistakes. May Dog forgive me for this.
 
Well, AFAIC the writing is on the wall for OVFs and it's only a matter of time before that crude last century technology (read mechanical ) is laid to rest, despite the gnashing of teeth and wailing from OVF diehards. This thread already reminds me of the still ongoing debate over whether film is better than digital. How long will the OVF vs EVF debate rage on?
As long as users desire an OVF

Guess what I shoot film too so you think I should not be allowed to do so? Do I hurt or upset people for shooting film?
you would want to light fire with stones too. One can desire anything.
Strange logic
your logic is indeed strange.
People (like myself) switched to digital, not because it was superior to film (which it's not ) but because the advantages were so great compared to the small advantage of film.

And I would be pleased to switch to an EVF, except for the fact that for many applications it is the equivalent of tying one hand behind your back.
1. Noone has to prove to you that anything is better than other.

2. You do not have to switch to EVF. It is upto you. When there are no cameras with OVF you can stop taking pictures. World would not stop if you do not switch.

3. As I said to Barry , it is not upto you to decide what products and what type of products company put into market. It is upto you not to buy them. this is your choice .

4. If in future everyone makes cameras with EVF only then it is to be concluded that OVF was not fit enough to survive competition from EVF. Just like film and many other antique things fade into oblivion.

So again argue as you want, but you are powerless when it comes to future. Fittest would survive. And in this case, it seems the fittest is EVF.
It's one thing to point out that EVF's will someday (and probably soon) be better in every major respect than OVF's - But as it stands now, such is not the case. I do believe your logic is very strange when you compare the film digital controversy over this comparison with OVF's vs. EVF's.

Dave
--
::> I make spelling mistakes. May Dog forgive me for this.
 
Ever heard of word business. It does not run by democracy. And it certainly not run to please one person. (in this case you).
Few are asking for EVF's bar some die hard fans note a new Canon 600d they'll sell a lot of them too.

BTW if I'm reading this right you are actually trying to suggest there are about 3 people worldwide one of whom is myself who prefer OVF's to EVF's? Or did you assume that my view might be shared by a significant number of others?
so the point again is you may want what you want. Someone would provide to you is not your choice.
Sony are not a company that gives choices that's why they have a history or proprietary lock in's with past electronic experiments.

The worlds isn't calling for EVF's Sony are just trying to save a few $$ and to make video shooters happy (which sucks if you don't shoot video)
 
ompetition from EVF. Just like film and many other antique things fade into oblivion.
So again argue as you want, but you are powerless when it comes to future. Fittest would survive. And in this case, it seems the fittest is EVF.
And you conclude this because DSLRs with OVFs outsell EVIL-cams with EVFs 10-1?

--
http://dslr-video.com/blogmag/
 
Ever heard of word business. It does not run by democracy. And it certainly not run to please one person. (in this case you).
Few are asking for EVF's bar some die hard fans note a new Canon 600d they'll sell a lot of them too.

BTW if I'm reading this right you are actually trying to suggest there are about 3 people worldwide one of whom is myself who prefer OVF's to EVF's? Or did you assume that my view might be shared by a significant number of others?
so the point again is you may want what you want. Someone would provide to you is not your choice.
Sony are not a company that gives choices that's why they have a history or proprietary lock in's with past electronic experiments.
At the moments you can buy Sony FF OVF cameras, APS OVF cameras, APS EVF cameras, APS mirrorless cameras.

Yep you don't get much choice with Sony. ;)
The worlds isn't calling for EVF's Sony are just trying to save a few $$ and to make video shooters happy (which sucks if you don't shoot video)
The world wasn't calling for digital cameras or cars or aeroplanes or the internet, so your point is?
 
I am glad that you pointed to all the nonobvious environmental costs of hybrids. Many of the batteries are based on Lithium. Mining that is extremely destructive enviromentally. Most of the Lithium will have to be imported, with the most abundant sources in places with almost no regulations e.g. Peru and Chile.
--Well, where do we get most of the oil that is simply burned?. Batteries can be made from many sources other than lithium. If any real effort is made a totally new energy source might save us all from self destruction. It wont happen overnight but there is some promising developments.
Don V. Armitage
 
BTW if I'm reading this right you are actually trying to suggest there are about 3 people worldwide one of whom is myself who prefer OVF's to EVF's? Or did you assume that my view might be shared by a significant number of others?
All (and I mean ALL) of those who prefer an OVF are the miserable Luddites posting on this thread. So what if you can't take fast moving action pictures of sports and wildlife? Big %&%@* deal!

Why can't you Luddites (well, me too) be satisfied with other aspects of photography?

Sheesh, you guys are sloooooow... :(

Dave
 
I am glad that you pointed to all the nonobvious environmental costs of hybrids. Many of the batteries are based on Lithium. Mining that is extremely destructive enviromentally. Most of the Lithium will have to be imported, with the most abundant sources in places with almost no regulations e.g. Peru and Chile.
--Well, where do we get most of the oil that is simply burned?. Batteries can be made from many sources other than lithium. If any real effort is made a totally new energy source might save us all from self destruction. It wont happen overnight but there is some promising developments.
Don V. Armitage
Advances in battery technology is doubling every 18 months. No need to think that it wont become less polluting in the future. Humanity simply has to make decisions based on harm and benefits, and then implement them.

Now anyone can say, they we're not implementing them but that can said about any technology that exists.

Dave
 
Re: Moore's Law is not true for batteries. Since battery capacity depends on mass and material (electrochemical voltage) its totally silly to say that moore's law applies to batteries.
 
Re: Moore's Law is not true for batteries. Since battery capacity depends on mass and material (electrochemical voltage) its totally silly to say that moore's law applies to batteries.
So technology has not advanced at all?

Give me a break here. Battery capacity depends on the ability of material to hold a charge. That capacity has been doubling, if not every two years, than fast enough.

So technically you might be correct. And just as the elimination of the horse caused all sorts of unintended consequences, not doubt the switch to electric will have their own good and bad side effects...
  • Improving Battery Technology: The cost of lithium-ion batteries has come down by over 75% in the past decade, creating a cost-effective, high-performance solution for EVs. The batteries are expected to perform for over 8 years and 2,000 recharges. If each charge gets 100 miles, the battery is projected to last 200,000 miles.
  • Declining Cost Curve: Battery technology is improving at the pace of Moore’s Law, which means a doubling of battery performance every two years (i.e., speed, power, and battery life). For example, over the last 35 years battery life has traditionally doubled every 5-7 years. Now, the cost per unit of energy and number of cycles on a battery is doubling every two years. The consumer benefits because some of the cost savings are passed on to lower the cost of the car. On a total cost per mile basis, the cars built for Agassi can be 70% lower than a gas-powered vehicle in some markets, even after accounting for the amortized cost of the battery.
http://wallstcheatsheet.com/tag/moore%E2%80%99s-law

The above may be far too optomistic, yet I read that IBM is trying to develop and air/Litium battery, which will be far cheaper and lighter than anything out today.

And here are some of the other ideas, some of which may pay off big time...
http://www.alternative-energy-news.info/technology/battery-power/

Dave
 
BTW if I'm reading this right you are actually trying to suggest there are about 3 people worldwide one of whom is myself who prefer OVF's to EVF's? Or did you assume that my view might be shared by a significant number of others?
All (and I mean ALL) of those who prefer an OVF are the miserable Luddites posting on this thread. So what if you can't take fast moving action pictures of sports and wildlife? Big %&%@* deal!

Why can't you Luddites (well, me too) be satisfied with other aspects of photography?

Sheesh, you guys are sloooooow... :(

Dave
--Come on Dave you know that OVFs are superior. They just won't be for long. Tech advances are in electronics, not mechanics. The EVF will equal or better the OVF in 2 years.
Don V. Armitage
 
We are now using lithium batteries. Do you see a way to find materals that may give us much more voltage in future and much more capacity per electrode mass ? Of course, the system may be improved in several aspects, but I don't see chances for a big step.
 
I'll be sticking with OVF for as long as possible, as to it improving video performance well thats fine if you want a video camera. as to FPS I have a D2x and that does 8Fps with an OVF so whats the point? I have used EVF cameras and personally I prefer the Optical system. Isn't an EVF just something else that can go wrong and be horribly expensive to repair?
--
THE man in black
 
You wanted numbers? You got numbers, from the largets photographic netsite in the world.
Meaningful statistics, not random numbers. Here's some numbers along your lines. The Olympus forums has long been one of the most active ones around here, in terms of posted messages. Does that mean their cameras are among the most polular too?

As a Panasonic shooter, I know the level of participation of Panasonic shooter in challenges is relatively high. Does that translate into meaninful statistics when talking about markets?

No and no.
 
There are many things in life that are implemented, just because they can be implemented. Someday (relatively soon) the EVF will surpass the OVF, but this Fan Boy mentality that it already is better than an OVF is just plain fanboyism.

Sonys low end cameras appeal to those who want a P&S camera with multiple lenses. Very few serious photographers buy these machines. Personally I think the high end Sonys are not bad cameras, but then again they have OVF's
The person you are replying to is a stout sony fanboi who will defend his brand to his death. He is best left alone, seriously.
Playing the ad hominem card is a sign that arguments fail.

I'm factual. Take the hint.
 
Yes but electric cars are far less environmentally friendly to make and dispose of than a petrol car.
In theory true, but this ignored the fact that the most important part in that dicussion, the batteries can (and actually are being, as the ingredients are expensive enough to make that profitable) be recycled.
Ad where does the electric come from for them most of the times..... power stations. This is what they don't tell you. Start to take everything into account and they are far from friendly and if anything worse.
I was talking worse case scenario, coal fired stations. And here, all scenarios are being told when promoting.
 
No, I did not test with the same lens. The G2H had the 14-140 which is slower of course.
Yeah, that has influence on how much you can see, the amount of noise and often (in the Sony case atleast) the refresh rate too. We're talking about atleast 2 stops (assuming the Nikon opens up to about F2.8 when framing).
Getting a night vison experience with a gained up EVF is not very usable if you cant shot handheld.
I can still shoot it handheld with the extreme conditions I described. Stabilization helping ofcourse. But it doesn't have to be that extreme to show the advantage.
BTW if the OVF you are using is from a Sony A550 or similar I understand your position more. Sony has some very small and dark OVFs, together with Olympus. Seems to me that the users of these brands are more positive about EVFs than others.
I have a Canon 5D (mkI) at my disposal too (work), so the OVF on my Sony isn't my only reference. The real reference IMO is still the naked eye.
 
In a very dark room, I can see fine with the OVF at a light level of 1/15 s, ISO 6400, F 1.8. The view with the GH2 is a little brighter, but the viewfinder lag of the EVF at this light level is horrible. The OVF of the D300s has the clear advantage as soon as you move the camera or the subjects moves.
See earlier comments.
No offense, but in 56 years of serious shooting I have yet to shoot a scene in a room or place so dark that I couldn't see the subjects in my viewfinder. Now I shoot street scenes at night, and find no advantage to an EVF or LCD, other than confusing the framing
If your eyes and brains can instantly adapt to darkness, you must have bionic powers.
 
I have 2 cameras at hand, one with an EVF (A55), the other with main sensor LV and an OVF. Both equipped with my 50mm F1.4 and using LV, give me an almost night vision experience with much better vision of my dark room (only lit my a 25 watt bulb and my computer screen at the moment) than wat my nakid eyes can see. Let alone through any OVF.
Yes but the A55 EVF in these conditions is very grainy and very weak on colour. The view is so far from reality and you stick it into a theatre production situation where a bright light comes into view surrounded by dark and the viewfinder is unless, now throw in some actors moving around and the whole thing just gets worse. With a decent quality OVF you just carry on taking the photos no problem. The EVFs at the moment just don't have good enough DR. As one review said of the A55, it's like watching bad TV.
This is about framing and anything beats darkness. Besides that, I gave in extreme example. In a dim room with a fast lens, there shouldn't be grain worth mentioning and even the refresh is still fine.
 

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