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[News] NX Future Briefing in NX11 Introduction Meeting

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Sony will be releasing those lenses, but neither the 18-55, the 16mm, or the 18-200 seems to have the quality of the 20mm or 30mm prime. I'm realllly interested in seeing how well they did with the 16mm 2.4 vs the NEX's 16mm 2.8. I'm hoping Sony can make some outstanding lenses for NEX, but IMO they have yet to do it with the 3 that are out already. The 18-200mm is a fine lens, but not outstanding by any means.
 
18-55mm is the only lens you can compare so far. Besides, we will see some E-mount lenses from other manufacturers (hopefully, with autofocus)
 
RayUK said:
Thanks for info. also from me.

What I was hoping for from the NX11, but didn't get, was the EX1's articulated LCD, or better still the Sony-style vertical articulation. IMHO this type of screen is perfect for stealth and street photography, especially if it could be allied to a silent shutter. What are the chances of getting something like this for the NX12?

OTOH I might just settle for the Sony HX100 if the IQ isn't too compromised.

Ray
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Methinks they had best leave an articulated screen for another model. Size and feel are big plusses on the NX10. Would not like to see this compromised for everyone just to u-turn the NX10/11 concept into what is a different style of camera.

Another model with an articulated screen is ok by me as I quite like the idea of screen articulation. However the present NX10 suits me well if for no other reason than it being a mini entry level dslr equivalent.

--
Tom Caldwell
I am always trying ...
 
In the end camera bodies come and go. By reputation the NEX camera bodies appeal to those who want a simple automatic drive so I bought Samsung.

Funnily enough it is the NEX crowd that seem to have run off and seemingly gone crazy fitting all sorts of legacy lenses via adapters when the NX series seems more suited to being a "proper" camera.

Perhaps it is because Sony more actively promoted this exercise. If so Sony were smart as they can make a camera with NEX mount for enthusiasts any day they please.

Samsung on the other hand gave potential enthusiasts a camera with entry level basic controls that is a joy to use and a good substitute for a simple legacy slr film camera.

So one might imagine NX enthusiasts up to their eyeballs in trick combinations. But we get complaints that the sensor is not good enough and wild enthusiasm for prospective kit type lenses that provide zoom. Great news, of course, is that Samsung have and are releasing some very high quality lenses of their own but the general consensus is "so what?" about the potentially high quality lenses. Why complain about sensors and in the same virtual breath look forward to kit zooms?

Seems that the market for Sony NEX and Samsung NX10 is skewed. The NEX is being bought by enthusiasts who would jump at a better body because they are experimentally minded. On the other hand Samsung have a body that can be used with some relish but its market seems to be largely those who want the camera to do all the work and, if you please, more zoom lenses will make us very happy.

Samsung in their annoucement made it quite clear that the NX10/11 is their "classic" entry level model as a starter for enthusiasts. The NX100 is form and style based for "everyman" use and that they intend making a "classic +" model for those that need a bit more. I am sure that those kit zooms will fit well on the classic + and do a great job. But hardly necessary if the camera needs no serious thought to use.

I think I had worked it out and the NX100 held out no enticement for me. However I am bemused by the chatter that seems to equate the NX10/11 as some sort of super compact carry about that you can change lenses on. To see it thus is to do a great intuitive camera a disservice.

If this is the type of camera desired then truly people should look at either a NX100 or a NEX.

--
Tom Caldwell
I am always trying ...
 
I have a m43 cam. If the choice is between Samsung and Sony, than based on what you see here the Samsung is by far the more serious system. My opinion. The lens line up looks mature, well thought out and from what we have seen until now the Samsung lenses perform well also. A better sensor: it'll come. Besides: the Samsung sensor is not bad, it is however worse than m43 and most of all NEX sensors. But I'd prefer a good sensor (not the best) with good to very good lenses, than a good sensor with a cam that is so-so in almost all other specs. I know may this is not enitely fair to the NEX, but m43s and Samsung NX to me are much more real camera's than the NEX is currently.

Only thing that would worry me is the lack of interest (it seems so, so not sure) in Samsung NX systems. They need to sell much more, because no company will keep on investing in a good or very good product that somehow does not sell. From that point of view of all the cams we have here, Sony is the most safe choice. They seem to outsell all others easily, at least in Japan.
 
i agree, samsung needs to spend some money on advertising for their nx system. i see plenty of commercials for their TVs, Tab, and other appliances, but consumers already know about them for all that + phones. samsung needs to get word out about their cameras! it seems like the only real failing point is the lack of popularity of the NX system and thus the lack of widespread support of the NX system (i can't find anything nx-related in stores; only online, and even then there's not too much).
 
Jorginho said:
the Samsung sensor is not bad, it is however worse than m43
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it's better than what they have in the vast majority of m43 cameras (thanks to its size). GH1 has somewhat better sensor, and GH2 has an even better one, but that's it.
 
Before these "movie" lenses make any sense, they have to release a camera with a new sensor. The current one is basically useless for movies because of the horrible rolling shutter artifacts.
 
I have been over this one many times. In short, whether it is dpreview. camera labs digitalcamerareview they all agree: the noise performance is worse than m43s. Not only Gh1 sensor, evn the G1. Recent comparisons in Dutch and German magazines I have read say exactly the same. Dpreview is quite clear when you look at noise performance in raw of the NX10 (look it up). It is worse. Size means nothing without appropriate technology.

Even though Panasonic may have the better sensors (and GH1 and Gh2 being better sitll) the difference with SOny NEX sensors is clear. Very clear. If Samsung were to pdouce such a sensor, the size of APS_c camera's and lenses wil still be a downside but they could (and should) perform better IQ wise than m43s.

I won't comment on that again because I have done this somany times. If you think Samsung NX10/11 have better noise performance, that is fine with me.

Doesn't matter anyway: Samsung NEEDS to use a much better sensor and the NX11 is about as dissapointing as the G2 (its sensor). Samsung needs to get its sensor to perform somewhat better than the NEX sensor, because that one is already one year old.

Most of all they need to sel their system much better (unless I am wrong about the actual sales of the NX system).
 
cucumber said:
Tom Caldwell said:
cucumber said:
Tom Caldwell said:
I presume the model pictures were withthe 85mm f1.4?
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yep. they look gorgeous, don't they?
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Yes, I hardly noticed the model, .... (smile)
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see? you can enjoy pictures taken with kit zoom (smile)
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Oh! Some models can overcome the "lens difficulties".

Seriously, kit zooms are quite useful and get the job done. No one could say that they are in any way deficient and we could all show great images taken by them. So I have not got a touch of "Nikon" or a dose of "Leica" when I snootily turn my nose up at "kit zooms". I used to be a kit zoom man myself when that was all I could afford and they served well enough at the time.

However the better primes are just that much faster and I am a lazy flash user and have become accustomed to almost being able to forget about the light relying on lens speed and ISO ratings to get me by. So much so that I have erred the other way and some fill flash would help my efforts. Must change my ways a bit.

You can always tell the lens snob at the shoot, constantly reaching into the big bag for another lens whilst the zoom-equipped keep snapping away. Not so bad if the snob doesn't need to be winking away with lights but in good light there is only the advantage of bokeh and lights hardly come into consideration.

Also consider that by "putting up with" manual focus lenses I am able to use a 50mm f1.2 lens on my NX10 and of course I have rhe very nice Samyang 85mm f1.2 so I already enjoy the speed and good glass of a 72mm object lens. We get numerous wise observations on the deficiencies of the sensor in the NX10 and surely one of the best ways to overcome this is not to do the bleeding heart at Samsung but simply to use faster lenses thereby not leaning on the ISO levels so much? Work around the "problem", don't complain, or just buy another more expensive camera and wait for it to be superseded by an even better sensor. Yes, I know the NEX is much the same price, but I need direct controls on my camera, menu controls are for the birds. So I might be stuck, but others - feel free.

Not that I am throwing away huge amounts of money on old lenses but it does seem to be an alternative available today rather than dreaming about what kit zooms are coming over the horizon.

The remaining point regarding the worth of zooms and prime lenses is the price of legacy fast primes is not high but enough to make you stop and think. However if those who must have a zoom lens of normal-average speed are in any sort of hurry then there are a huge amount of legacy zoom lenses for sale at almost give-away prices. Those that buy legacy lenses obviously vote with their pocket books on the type of lens they most desire.

So kit-zooms are convenient and image quite well. Faster more exclusive prime lenses are more bother to use and a kit of them is bulky and more expensive to acquire so this must be saying something, perhaps prime lens users are just those snobby ones with more money than sense? But if that were the case I might be running a Leica and primes. My only real comment is the lather that some are working into over the foreshadowed introduction of zoom lenses, less interest in the rather nice 85mm f1.4 which is more the one that will accompany the release of the classic + version of the NX mount camera. That possible event would say it all from Samsung's point of view.

I really like my NX10 but I understand it for what it is and what it is designed to do: it is a basic entry level dslr equivalent. It is a no-nonsese basic camera that is extremely well built for its target market but it is not particularly sophisticated. However it performs well within its target brief and is a joy to use. What more could anyone want?

The killer professional level camera with a to die for sensor is promised but it will cost a bit more and it really needs some lenses beyond the kit zoom to be able to perform at its best. Samsung seem to be intent on making a range of lenses to suit the wide range of tastes and requirements and obviously zoom lenses are much more in demand than primes.

--)
Tom Caldwell
I am always trying ...
 


Is it THAT bad for Iso3200 from my old 2008 NX sensor?

Even though this shot i quite ok with me...I don't think debating on Iso is important.

You can have a NEX, a NX or a m/43....your shot more than Iso800 won't look good IMO.
 
jj74e said:
i agree, samsung needs to spend some money on advertising for their nx system. i see plenty of commercials for their TVs, Tab, and other appliances, but consumers already know about them for all that + phones. samsung needs to get word out about their cameras! it seems like the only real failing point is the lack of popularity of the NX system and thus the lack of widespread support of the NX system (i can't find anything nx-related in stores; only online, and even then there's not too much).
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Would you pay $50 more or even a $100 more for a camera that was heavily advertised?

The thing that sold me the NX10 in the shop was the build quality and it's size compared to the Canon 550D I went to look at. The NX10 was half the price and almost half the size and felt high-quality rugged metal build to the Canon's cheaper plastic-feel. Of course the 550D was a much longer developed camera and I would get features not present in the NX10. However nobody can tell me that the 550D costs more to build in quantity which was the point that was well-made to me.

I rest my case on that one.

The other hoary old story is that because the NX is not on every shelf in every electronic good store then the camera is not a success.

Several points here:

Firstly, one retail chain specialist store manager told me that his store wuld not stock any Samsung cameras simply because the electronic goods stores were selling huge amounts of cheap Samsung point and shoots. Sort of did not wish to be associated with "trash" or was it "payback"? I heard the same sort of comment about Panasonic years ago but now most stores have a showcase full of Panasonic digital cameras. If the public perception of Samsung changes then the stores will stock Samsung.

Secondly, it is presumed that Samsung wish to dominate the EVIL-type camera market. This is because Samsung said so, but they did not say "when". Good prudential management theory says that you don't bet the farm on your first efforts. This is more likely to be a big disaster if the market does not warm to your product. All companies test new products on the market first to make sure that it is sellable and at what price. Back to the slide rules and run out the big production line when the future looks good.

Samsung would have a fair idea on roughly how many point and shoot cameras they could sell at any given market price from experience. The NX series is a whole new ball game for them and above all they have to supply a range of lenses to go with it.

It is simply not going to work with a mere handful of lenses on a new mount system.

So I guess Samsung are selling all the NX model cameras they choose to do. If they were really worried they would both drop the bottom out of their NX price and drop the idea altogether. This is simply not the case. Price variancies are probably more directed at finding the "sweet selling-price point" for future reference. The current NX series are pilot models and we are all test pilots. But I guess everyone who is actually in the cockpit is happy enough.

In the future Samsung has already semaphored that the NX10* will be the "style" model ie: cheaper with more plastic, upgraded more often and for upwardly mobile point and shooters. The NX1* the classic model - basic but effective function, but not over-sophisticated. Perhaps if price is the main consideration we might see this model have more plastic in it's future models (personally I hope not - treasure your NX10/11). We will also get a more sophisticated (NX* perhaps) classic + model that should be quite a camera. But we will pay more for the privilege. There Is not much point in having a higher level camera without having a range of higher level lenses that such owners will surely want to buy.

No doubt that Samsung will at least try to own the EVIL type camera market but to scold Samsung's "lack of sales" or to predict the company's demise in that area this early is a bit premature.

--
Tom Caldwell
I am always trying ...
 
So, the tests work out today's best sensor. I don't wish to contradict their august advice.

Tomorrow is another day and another better sensor and so the caravan rolls on.

In the real world the camera someone uses is a lot more than having the best sensor. In the real world many people like to have a camera that is a pleasure to actually use and the sensor inside is a lesser consideration.

People with a NX camera are not about to drop their commitment to that system just to run off and buy a Sony or m4/3 system they don't like to use just because some testers say that the Samsung sensor sucks. The fact is that the Samsung sensor is "good enough" for most.

I appreciate what is being said but the whole argument is immediately rendered pointless just as soon as a "better" sensor is introduced by someone else - consider Canon or Nikon entering the EVIL type camera fray with a sensor to die for.

Heaven help those with investments in Sony NEX who would feel bound to drop their investment in that system to chase after a new system just as soon as those testing sensors gave something else the thumbs up. Samsung NX owners would just smile and keep on taking pictures.

--
Tom Caldwell
I am always trying ...
 
I just moved from m43 to NX system, not because of the sensor quality or build quality (which IMO is quite the same), just because of the lens line-up and the pricing structure of the lens (m43 lens are a little more expensive than NX offering)
 
aeys said:
I just moved from m43 to NX system, not because of the sensor quality or build quality (which IMO is quite the same), just because of the lens line-up and the pricing structure of the lens (m43 lens are a little more expensive than NX offering)
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I did the same a year ago for the same reasons. I was not able to find 20/1.7 anywhere and I got a great deal for NX-10 with all three lenses (30/2.0 being the most important to me).

There are quite a few things that I miss from EP1 - sensor stabilisation, focusing on AEL button, turning off screen auto gain in M mode with external flash attached, smoother noise reduction, smaller size, etc. I am also envious of Olympus 9-18 lens.

But, overall, I am content with NX as a camera and openly happy about 30/2.0 as a lens. That lens actually sold the whole system to me, and without it I wouldn't consider a NX system at all.

I am now waiting for 16 and 60mm lenses and if they are on a 30/2 level it would all pay of, even with a few generations old sensor and quite a few quirks. The only thing that worries me is that there are no real UWA lenses in Samsung's roadmap.

What are your impressions, aeys?

--
Greetings, Aleksandar
 
I never said NX was bad. Further more: shots with the NEX will look nice all the way to ISO 3200 (noise performance especially). Pansaonic does reasonably well (but not as good as the NEX) till ISO 3200 provided it is the GH2.

With the G1, which I have, you better stay till ISO 800 which is equivalent to ISO 1250. Sad Panasoic changed its ISO rating on the GH2, which is misleading to us m43 users.

I think the NX will do slightly worse than the G1/G2, based on tests and solely looking at the noise performance. Total IQ is more than ISO just alone and to some extend personal preference of course.

I'd say the NEX is two stops better at high ISO than the NX or G1 and 1/2 a stop better than the GH2. Moreless.

If Samsung were to use the sensor now in the K5 Pentax in their next iteration of NX systems, I am 100% sure people who are now downplaying the not so good performance of the current NX, will be cheering. Will be full of excitement. I know most m43 users would nbe elated. Simply credit were credit is due: Sony does an excellent job with its APS-c sensors.
 
Jorginho said:
I never said NX was bad. Further more: shots with the NEX will look nice all the way to ISO 3200 (noise performance especially). Pansaonic does reasonably well (but not as good as the NEX) till ISO 3200 provided it is the GH2.

With the G1, which I have, you better stay till ISO 800 which is equivalent to ISO 1250. Sad Panasoic changed its ISO rating on the GH2, which is misleading to us m43 users.

I think the NX will do slightly worse than the G1/G2, based on tests and solely looking at the noise performance. Total IQ is more than ISO just alone and to some extend personal preference of course.

I'd say the NEX is two stops better at high ISO than the NX or G1 and 1/2 a stop better than the GH2. Moreless.

If Samsung were to use the sensor now in the K5 Pentax in their next iteration of NX systems, I am 100% sure people who are now downplaying the not so good performance of the current NX, will be cheering. Will be full of excitement. I know most m43 users would nbe elated. Simply credit were credit is due: Sony does an excellent job with its APS-c sensors.
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My brother has the g1, gf1 and gf2. I can assure you that in both jpeg and RAW the samsung is noticably better. Jpegs from the NX10 are overly NRd but that's what jpegs are for, instant (postable online) pictures, the RAWS are all together much better.

It's also quite apparent that the 4/3 sensor is at the absolute limit of it's capabilities. The similarly aged Samsung sensor is quite comfortably ahead without red dots and risky AA fiilters etc.

Samsung's lenses are also noticably better.

My bro now has the above g and gf series cameras but also an NX100 with the 30mm, he gave me the 20-50mm it came with (which is amaxing on an NX10). I should imagine the panasonics will be on ebay soon. M43 was alright, but it isn't possible to make a good sensor/lense combo in that niche, it's a marketed product, not the most satisfactory line to opt for.
 
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