Helping Sigma

IT community groups aren't usually giving freely of their time and energy in support of a commercial company's interests, are they? It's usually open source, freeware or some discontinued product they want to keep alive.

Would you suggest that Canon owners should provide free marketing for Canon products? Or would you expect Canon to pay for their marketing - afterall, any increased profits won't come anywhere near the fans.

It seems odd to me, that people would want to help Sigma out like this. Sigma are only doing it for money.
From their lenses certainly, but I think you will find that Sigma has never been in the camera market for money, well at least from the SD9 onwards.

Sigma wont have made anywhere near as much money from selling cameras, as they have from selling lenses and you should really think of their digital cameras as merely playthings, made to satisfy the photographic whims and desires of Sigma's ruling elite, who are obviously true image quality enthusiasts, funded from profit gleamed from sales of their lenses.

This is pretty obvious when you factor in that the ruling elite of Sigma, alone, in the photographic wilderness, saw the potential of the Foveon X3 sensor when every other camera manufacter around them utterly shunned it, as though it was the sensor equivalent of Gary Glitter, waving a placard saying: "Come here little kiddies, Gary wants you to be in his gang-bang"!
I'm pretty sure that if the bottom fell out of the photo market for some reason, they'd happily swap to making washing machines or socks or something.
Would you buy a Sigma washing washing machine, especially when it might cost the same as existing known, reliable brands and when it would probably be pretty hard to get hold of?

They would have exactly the same problem as they have now...Not enough money to advertise their cameras in an effective manner, on a global basis, to increase market awareness.

Sigma cameras are largely sold by word of mouth, by the written word, by accident, by chance, by concedence and by eye, but not neccessarily in that order.
So told in story form, the history of the SD range would sound a bit like this:

Once upon a time, a non-Sigma camera owner was looking for a camera with better image quality than his Bayer mush machine could give him. He searched and he searched but to no avail, until he had just about given up all hope of finding one.

Then coincedentaly and quite by accident, he came across some Sigma images which greatly impressed him. He desperately wanted to find out more about the camera that took these impressive images, but he did'nt know where to look as he had never heard of Sigma cameras before.

Then, quite by chance, be came across the Sigma talk forum on DPreview, where he found out more about Sigma cameras by reading and writing lots and lots of words and looking at more great Sigma images, until he could wait no longer...He just had to get one of these amazing Sigma cameras!

But he found that he had to look and look, and look again before he could even find a single camera store that would order one for him and none kept any in stock.

Eventually though, he got one, he fell in love with it and its inherrantly razor sharp images, so much so that he would zeolously defend its honour against all the nasty, mushy, Bayer challengers that stepped up, and he lived happily ever after...Well, at least he mostly lived happily ever after, albeit with the occasional lock-up, noise and colour cast issue!
The end.
 
Yee-hah, fooled DPR software into double posting!
I told you, Dave, not to get those bifocals! :-P

--
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It was written in a predecessor, BPL, with some ASSEMBLY lANGAUGE
The version(s) of Unix that got moved to so many, many other architectures was mostly written in C, and that portability is what enabled its success. The previous language you refer to was BCPL, and C's actual predecessor was B, leading to the old joke that the next one should have been either D or P, rather than what actually resulted: C++.

And that is the last I will offer on the subject; the Sigma/Foveon religious wars are painful enough without bringing programming language or operating system wars here, too.

Robert
 
I have been thinking along the same lines for a while... I think a good approach to take is perhaps to speak to camera clubs, brining along great prints to show and gear to try.
Believe it or not, I actually convinced several members of my local camera club to purchase Sigma cameras after a presentation on my IR work. But those cameras ended up on ebay. Why? Mainly because it was just too hard/different. SPP felt strange to them, the SD14's were rather unreliable and they did not get good results quickly as others who bought converted non-Sigma cameras.
Basically I think such a thing is best if it's either really print focused, so people can easy admire the output and have a hook to learn more.
So you show them a few great prints. They buy Sigma cameras. Then they discover their prints are not so great. Why? Well, one great printing is an art in itself. Two, they like to shoot different types of images than you do perhaps where Sigma cameras are not so great or take more work/patience to be great. Three, they find out it's not so easy to add to the Sigma system (compared to their friends with other systems.)

Getting initial sales is not that hard: a lot of photographers believe in the magic bullet (e.g., that the camera makes the difference.) The problem is keeping them over the long haul. The key for Sigma at this point is not finding buyers but finding the right buyers and keeping them interested for longer periods.
Some kinds of events in conjunction with local camera shops would be good too.
Only if that local shop carries (or will efficiently order) Sigma equipment. Local camera stores don't really like ordering specialty items. If the customer has to wait anyway, there is less incentive to buy local vs. ordering it yourself.
I think after the SD1 comes out Sigma might be willing to try out some of these sorts of grassroots marketing ideas.
The SD1 alone is not enough. Like the SD9, it will garner a lot of initial interest. It will be the highest resolution APS-C camera for a number of months. But the other cameras makers will catch up. Sigma better have that full-frame model ready and/or the compact EVIL implementation with the APS-C sensor pretty soon after that.

--
Erik
 
Believe it or not, I actually convinced several members of my local camera club to purchase Sigma cameras after a presentation on my IR work. But those cameras ended up on ebay. Why? Mainly because it was just too hard/different. SPP felt strange to them, the SD14's were rather unreliable and they did not get good results quickly as others who bought converted non-Sigma cameras.
I admire the effort - that's IR work though, if you can get people to buy a camera on a more general set of functionality it could work better.

I'm a bit surprised they did not find the Sigma's easy enough to work with IR, did they get other IR converted cameras and find those better?
Basically I think such a thing is best if it's either really print focused, so people can easy admire the output and have a hook to learn more.
So you show them a few great prints. They buy Sigma cameras. Then they discover their prints are not so great. Why? Well, one great printing is an art in itself.
That's very true, but a problem with being attracted to prints of any system. People realize they lack understanding of making good prints and mostly don't blame the camera for a while if the prints they are making are not great.
Two, they like to shoot different types of images than you do perhaps where Sigma cameras are not so great or take more work/patience to be great. Three, they find out it's not so easy to add to the Sigma system (compared to their friends with other systems.)
Showing the prints though, would mainly attract the people who liked the prints produced, and you'd think would be looking at doing similar work. That's why I like the idea of the prints because you could tailor them to attract people where the systems were stronger (like landscape).
Getting initial sales is not that hard: a lot of photographers believe in the magic bullet (e.g., that the camera makes the difference.) The problem is keeping them over the long haul. The key for Sigma at this point is not finding buyers but finding the right buyers and keeping them interested for longer periods.
That's true and why I did not actually make much of an effort to this point.
Some kinds of events in conjunction with local camera shops would be good too.
Only if that local shop carries (or will efficiently order) Sigma equipment. Local camera stores don't really like ordering specialty items. If the customer has to wait anyway, there is less incentive to buy local vs. ordering it yourself.
That is also very true, that I didn't really talk about much but a key factor in that whole equation is that Sigma would have to convince that local show to carry some sigma cameras in stock and some SA lenses too.
I think after the SD1 comes out Sigma might be willing to try out some of these sorts of grassroots marketing ideas.
The SD1 alone is not enough. Like the SD9, it will garner a lot of initial interest. It will be the highest resolution APS-C camera for a number of months. But the other cameras makers will catch up. Sigma better have that full-frame model ready and/or the compact EVIL implementation with the APS-C sensor pretty soon after that.
There I differ. I feel the SD1 is enough, because it gives that system headroom for someone to buy into an SD-15 or DP-x to play, and then an SD-1 if they find the camera output is for them and they want to get serious.

You don't need the EVIL because that is the DP-x cameras, they just happen to have fixed lenses. A small interchangeable lens might be nice but is actually less easy to get into than a DP-x camera because it's a few components to buy and is large enough you use it in place of, not in conjunction with, an existing DSLR.

Again, with the SD1 in place you have enough parts that people have room to grow or use the camera at a pretty high level to start.

--
---> Kendall
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IT community groups aren't usually giving freely of their time and energy in support of a commercial company's interests, are they? It's usually open source, freeware or some discontinued product they want to keep alive.
That is totally not true.

In every single technical matter I've ever been involved in, from programming languages to equipment, there are dedicated groups of people that meet and donate time basically to help each other. It's not at all about discontinued products so much as things that many people use.

I myself have attended many local free technical conferences where I helped train new users, and regularly contribute understanding on the technical site StackOverflow.
Would you suggest that Canon owners should provide free marketing for Canon products? Or would you expect Canon to pay for their marketing - afterall, any increased profits won't come anywhere near the fans.
Nikonians ring any bells? Lots of people like to promote the use of products they enjoy. Unlike your highly cynical view that the world is driven by money in fact I've pretty much almost never found that to be the case, once you get beyond the level of money needed for food and shelter.

I'm sure there are similar Canon groups, though I've not heard of any.
It seems odd to me, that people would want to help Sigma out like this.
I can't help but speculate you have a heart two sizes too small, to borrow a phrase.
Sigma are only doing it for money.
That is a deeply offensive and frankly ignorant statement. If they were just doing it for the money would they still be doing what they are? Such a statement ignores the real-world reality that a vast number of things companies do are not just being done "for the money", because companies are run by real people and as we all know one of the things people are worst at is making purely rational choices.

Sigma has repeatedly expressed, even in person, how excited they are at growing a camera part of the business. Money may come but far more important is the long-term goal of being a highly respected camera maker, and Sigma is willing to spend a lot of time, effort and money to make that happen with no obvious payout to come soon.
I'm pretty sure that if the bottom fell out of the photo market for some reason, they'd happily swap to making washing machines or socks or something.
Won't even dignify that with a response. I just can't believe you typed it. Must be a darn gloomy winter there is all I can say.

--
---> Kendall
http://InsideAperture.com
http://www.pbase.com/kgelner
http://www.pbase.com/sigmadslr/user_home
 
Kendall

Now you are being unkind. I'm very happy to help people out - for example, just today I unpacked my ebay bound Canon 350D kit and loaned it indefinitely to a colleague simply because she expressed an interest in getting into SLRs even though she had no photographic experience at all beyond holiday snaps with a camera phone. I feel that she doesn't appreciate the drawbacks of a SLR for someone with her level of interest and could be making an expensive mistake. Borrowing the camera will give her the opportunity to find out at no cost to her. And this person is not a friend, I barely know her. She might drop it in a puddle but what the hell, it isn't worth a lot.

There is a difference in helping out a person you know and helping out an anonymous commercial company who exist solely to make profits and will never know or care what you do. Would you go out of your way to help Rupert Murdoch make a few more billions?

If you are right that Sigma are in the camera business because the like and like making cameras for their nice customers then I'll be delighted to accept a free SD1 from them - afterall, I said nice things about the SD14 in my oft-quoted, high google ranked Great Shootout article, it costs me quite a bit of money to keep it online and I have never made as much as a single penny from it towards the hosting costs...

--
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Kendall

Now you are being unkind. I'm very happy to help people out - for example, just today I unpacked my ebay bound Canon 350D kit and loaned it indefinitely to a colleague simply because she expressed an interest in getting into SLRs even though she had no photographic experience at all beyond holiday snaps with a camera phone. I feel that she doesn't appreciate the drawbacks of a SLR for someone with her level of interest and could be making an expensive mistake. Borrowing the camera will give her the opportunity to find out at no cost to her. And this person is not a friend, I barely know her. She might drop it in a puddle but what the hell, it isn't worth a lot.
Drawbacks of a DSLR? I, for one, only see advantages. If you mean to imply that there is extra work involved compared to a phone cam and she may regret that, sure. But the advantages, eg IQ, opportunities to print beyond postcard size, controll exposure and DOF etc, far outweigh the drawbacks.
There is a difference in helping out a person you know and helping out an anonymous commercial company who exist solely to make profits and will never know or care what you do. Would you go out of your way to help Rupert Murdoch make a few more billions?
As Kendall said, we like to help Sigma because we share their passion. Sigma are in it for the long haul, they have a vision fuelled by their passion.
If you are right that Sigma are in the camera business because the like and like making cameras for their nice customers then I'll be delighted to accept a free SD1 from them ...
That sounds pretty sarcastic and snide.

Really, David, in the first outburst you go along at a pretty derogatory pace mocking and taunting Sigma and then as soon as Kendall calls you on it, you try and hijack the high moral road and fail dismally.

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I admire the effort - that's IR work though, if you can get people to buy a camera on a more general set of functionality it could work better.
With the models available to date, it's easier to have the Sigma as a second specialty body than as your main system for general photography.
I'm a bit surprised they did not find the Sigma's easy enough to work with IR, did they get other IR converted cameras and find those better?
Yes, partly because they ended up wanting to produce IR images like the ones they saw everywhere else (e.g. mild color contamination.) You can get this look with the Sigmas (I emailed them how) but it was more work.
That's why I like the idea of the prints because you could tailor them to attract people where the systems were stronger (like landscape).
The issue I see is managing expectations. People are used to the major brands where the strengths/weaknesses are a little more balanced. This also sometimes called the principal of least surprise.
There I differ. I feel the SD1 is enough, because it gives that system headroom for someone to buy into an SD-15 or DP-x to play, and then an SD-1 if they find the camera output is for them and they want to get serious.
I doubt the SD1 will make any significant bump for SD15 sales. 3x pixel count is just too large a gap unless the SD1 price is very high. The DP series (which has the benefit of not requiring new lenses) may very well benefit.
You don't need the EVIL because that is the DP-x cameras, they just happen to have fixed lenses.
EVIL is where all of the market growth is these days.
A small interchangeable lens might be nice but is actually less easy to get into than a DP-x camera because it's a few components to buy
Huh? The basic kit usually comes in a single box just like a DP.
and is large enough you use it in place of, not in conjunction with, an existing DSLR.
Huh? The Sony NEX and Olympus pens are essentially the same size as the DPs (and smaller when you include lens extension) with the same lens type i.e., pancake prime. Like the DP series, they are essentially jacket pocket and not short/pants pocket cameras. (Is that a DP in your pocket or are you just glad to see me?).
Again, with the SD1 in place you have enough parts that people have room to grow or use the camera at a pretty high level to start.
It's always "what have you done for me lately?" It's not enough to simply start, you have to keep improving at a quick pace because that's what the competitors will do.

--
Erik
 
Consider this, if you are so committed to the Sigma organization you could give up your livelihood here and fly to japan at your expense and volunteer your life to them. You could bring them coffee, sweep up after them and make sure the toilets are clean. Then they will have more time to concentrate on their passion, you could really make a difference! You could even mention to them that maybe they could make Sigma mount lenses available just as they do for Canon and Nikon lenses they build, that would be really sweet.
This is the least you can do after all.
Don
 
If you think that a SLR is all advantages and no disadvantages to a person who has no pretensions to be a photographer and who only takes photographs at parties and standing in front of Eifle Tower and is used to a camera that slips into a purse, has only one button and also makes phonecalls I hope you don't get to advise too many people.

She has no idea how big, bulky, heavy, intrusive even a basic two lens slr kit is. The first thing she said when I handed her the 350D + 18-55 kit lens was "Oh, it's very heavy, isn't it". For a DSLR it's a featherweight....

Oh, and Sigma can't be offended, upset or hurt by anyone. Ir's a name in a register of companies.

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So told in story form, the history of the SD range would sound a bit like this:

Once upon a time, a non-Sigma camera owner was looking for a camera with better image quality than his Bayer mush machine could give him. He searched and he searched but to no avail, until he had just about given up all hope of finding one.

Then coincedentaly and quite by accident, he came across some Sigma images which greatly impressed him. He desperately wanted to find out more about the camera that took these impressive images, but he did'nt know where to look as he had never heard of Sigma cameras before.

Then, quite by chance, be came across the Sigma talk forum on DPreview, where he found out more about Sigma cameras by reading and writing lots and lots of words and looking at more great Sigma images, until he could wait no longer...He just had to get one of these amazing Sigma cameras!

But he found that he had to look and look, and look again before he could even find a single camera store that would order one for him and none kept any in stock.

Eventually though, he got one, he fell in love with it and its inherrantly razor sharp images, so much so that he would zeolously defend its honour against all the nasty, mushy, Bayer challengers that stepped up, and he lived happily ever after...
The end.
Ur a prophet!

--
marcuslowphoto.blogspot.com
 
I wonder maybe some of us should hold some frequent similar workshops/seminars with the sponsorship of Sigma.

So what say ye, shouldn't the "user groups" of Sigma Foveon do something similar?
You make a good point, Marcus. In fact a loosely organized Sigma User's Group (SUG) has existed for at least 6 years, though the activities have been pretty sparse the past few years. Personally, I have attended several gatherings of SUG folks:
  • April 2005: LaWantzenau, France; the managing directors of Sigma France and Sigma Germany were there and sponsored a photo contest, won by our Forum's own Olga Vasilkova. The prize as I recall, was a very good lens, which was Olga's second lens at that time! This gathering is where I first met Laurence. My son Mike Taylor was there also with his SD9.
  • May 2006: Santa Fe, New Mexico; a Sigma USA rep was there, Rory as I recall; **** Lyon and Seng Merrill were there, along with Laurence, Chunsum and many others.
  • November 2006: Frederick, Maryland: a Sigma USA rep was there, Rory again I think; mainly shot US Civil War sites such as Harpers Ferry, West Virginia and Antietam, Maryland.
  • November 2006: Ansbach, Germany; this was a "mini" SUG gathering, consisting of Laurence, Mike Taylor and myself.
  • April 2007: Bulls Bridge, Connecticut; this was the first "New England" gathering organized by TJ Hanlon and others; I believe someone from Sigma USA was there.
  • September 2007: Ansbach, Germany: another "mini" gathering at my son Mike's wedding. Laurence, Olga, Bob, Laurence and I were all there shooting with our SD14s. Olga and Bob produced spectacular wedding photos (as expected!). They dramatically proved (at least to me) that you CAN shoot weddings with Sigma.
  • October 2007: West Point, New York; I sponsored this one and we had a great gathering including Laurence; the highlights were the Cadet Parade and the West Point Cemetery, which is a photographic treasure trove.
  • May 2009: Woodstock, Vermont; SUG gathering at the time of **** Merrill's funeral and burial there; it was a somber, yet uplifting gathering as **** was/is an inspiration to all Sigmoids; most all USA Sigmoids on this forum were there: Laurence, Chunsum, Seng (of course), Paul S, Peter S, Hank, Lawrence, Scott, TJ, Wally, Kendall, Decker, and others I may have forgotten (with my apologies).
Since then there have been annual SUG gatherings in Death Valley, but unfortunately I have not been able to make any of those.

The point is . . . YOUR point is well taken; we need to resurrect these gatherings AND, most important, convince Sigma that there is opportunity here for them to promote and grow the photographer's base for Sigma/Foveon DSLRs. I really like your idea of the gatherings being a workshop/seminar. Even we Sigmoids can learn from each other, plus we can attract new Sigmoids!

I know Sigma monitors this forum; how about it? Let's get organized and make things happen for ALL of us Sigmoids AND for Sigma. I hereby volunteer to work on the Sigmoid side to make things happen, IF Sigma will step up.

Best Regards to All,

Bill Taylor
Gambrills, MD
 
Consider this, if you are so committed to the Sigma organization you could give up your livelihood here and fly to japan at your expense and volunteer your life to them. You could bring them coffee, sweep up after them and make sure the toilets are clean. Then they will have more time to concentrate on their passion, you could really make a difference! You could even mention to them that maybe they could make Sigma mount lenses available just as they do for Canon and Nikon lenses they build, that would be really sweet.
This is the least you can do after all.
Don
Sarcasm without wit, is like a s$&thouse without s$&t. ;)

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I think you could add one more meeting of SUG:

Poland, Cracow, June 2006 (oh, God so long time ago!) organized by Wojtek Burkot (and I was helping a little).
http://www.pbase.com/sigmadslr/cracow2006

As far as I know Sigma Poland was informed and Wojtek expected some support from their side, but there was no answer and no help.

So my opinion is, that maybe in USA Sigma is dynamic and strong enough to support local user groups, but it is not in small countries and even if there were relatively many users they wouldn't get any support.
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Best Regards

Chris'tea'
 

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