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Sony eBook Thief!

  • Thread starter Thread starter Peter iNova
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Mike,

I agree with you but let me try to clarify things a bit more...

I am not defending the Dentist who is selling "copies" of Peters ebook. I am taking issue with the implication that anyone who buys one of these ebooks from him is automatically a culprit in this illegal scam.

Someone buying illegal drugs has to buy them from a black market dealer and is therefore knowingly doing something illegal, but Ebay is a legitimate auction block and most people are buying things with honest intentions.

If you read the seller's description below, he uses the word, "copy" in a generic sense and it is not obvious that the word, "copy" means, "pirated copy."

We often describe our software as a "copy." (e.g. "I bought a copy of Microsoft Word.") Most buyers will assume this is a legitimate copy because it is being sold via a legitimate channel. The law will not call the buyer a criminal in this case. I do agree that the seller should be the target of legal investigation though.

Here is the sellers Ebay description:

"I am relisting this auction b/c there is a need for owners of these great cameras to learn their full potential! got a dsc f707 or f717? want to learn more than basic point and shoot functions? this is the just released item for you! the sony advanced cybershot ebook (orig retails for $50) by peter inova. this auction is for a copy which includes: all viewing software (adobe acrobat reader 5+4.05, adobe photoshop 6 tryout fullversion,over 300 inovafx photoshopactions,test strip 3.0 trial, panorama tools full version) for windows/mac users included; pdf format.250pages.550+photos and illustrations in full color indepth camera courses digital photography lessons interactive text and guides hundreds of info bites major demo software live internet connections pdf files in high and ultra resolution custom inovafx photoshop actions acrobat readers for macintosh/windows example files and much more!"

David Clark
 
dave clark said:
I am not defending the Dentist who is selling "copies" of Peters
ebook. I am taking issue with the implication that anyone who buys
one of these ebooks from him is automatically a culprit in this
illegal scam.
Click to expand...
I can't speak with authority about other countries, but in Denmark the purchasing of goods which are stolen is considered to be equivalent to fencing stolen goods. If you buy a stolen TV at the local pub you get charged and convicted of fencing.

Rennie
 
Ok. I don't know much about law either, but think of the many absurd situations that could arise if taken without qualification.

My grandmother buys a Sony F717 from an online dealer. The dealer is found guilty for selling stolen goods. The FBI, CIA, KGB (whatever) come to her door and handcuff her and drag her down to the jail house and finger-print her. She had no idea that the camera was "hot" but the law throws her in jail anyway. Is this justice? Clearly, intent must be taken into consideration in cases like this.

A local pub is not the same as a legitimate retail store. How can I prove that anything I buy is not stolen goods? Anything sold on Ebay could be stolen. How do we know?

David Clark
Rennie Petersen said:
dave clark said:
I am not defending the Dentist who is selling "copies" of Peters
ebook. I am taking issue with the implication that anyone who buys
one of these ebooks from him is automatically a culprit in this
illegal scam.
Click to expand...
I can't speak with authority about other countries, but in Denmark
the purchasing of goods which are stolen is considered to be
equivalent to fencing stolen goods. If you buy a stolen TV at the
local pub you get charged and convicted of fencing.

Rennie
Click to expand...
 
dave clark said:
Anything sold on Ebay could be stolen. How do we know?
Click to expand...
My guess is that we're supposed to use common sense. If the seller doesn't have the image of an authorized reseller for this product, and if he's selling the product at a price which is inconsistent with the suggested retail price, then we can guess that there's something fishy going on. We can check ahead of time with the producer of the product (Peter iNova) if this person is an authorized reseller. If we buy the product and it arrives on a home-made CD-ROM then we know it's a pirate copy and we can send it back and demand a refund. If you buy it and keep it despite all of these clues, then I think a judge and jury will find you guilty.

I don't think the idea of using your grandmother as a front to sway the jury is a good idea. (Just joking!)

Rennie
 
"(orig retails for $50) by peter inova. this auction is for a copy "

that right there tipped me off. no doubt to me, he's a pirate.

tim
dave clark said:
If you read the seller's description below, he uses the word,
"copy" in a generic sense and it is not obvious that the word,
"copy" means, "pirated copy."
Click to expand...
 
Mike Fitzgerald said:
Sorry to hear about it, Peter; all the more so since people in that
game shouldn't be exactly on the bread line. Presumably he's a
lousy dentist (if he is one at all). Good luck with the follow-up.

But I'm curious about your reference to "a purchaser from this
site". Do you mean you have reason to suspect it's a subscriber to
dpReview?

Mike
Click to expand...
I have confirmed that he is a purchaser via the banners on this site. That was the single helpful thing he did. By purchasing it here, he helped support Phil's efforts. But then he decided to make it all back illegally...

-iNova

--
http://www.itssony.com
 
dave clark said:
Peter,

Sorry to hear about this unfortunate situation. I think the
person who is selling your ebook illegally should get punished, but
I don't think I would go so far as to say that anyone who has
purchased a copy of your book from him is going to be considered a
criminal. Let's be reasonable.
Click to expand...
What is the definition of "trouble"?

-iNova
dave clark28980 said:
Thank you,
David Clark
Peter iNova said:
If you buy from him, you could be in trouble, too.

(Receiving stolen property is a crime that starts with F.)
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
--
http://www.digitalsecrets.net
 
Peter iNova said:
I have confirmed that he is a purchaser via the banners on this
site. That was the single helpful thing he did. By purchasing it
here, he helped support Phil's efforts. But then he decided to make
it all back illegally...
Click to expand...
Hmmm... Sorry to hear that. I guess we'd all like to hope that it was a passer-by, who would of course be exposed to the banners as we all are, and not a regular.
 
dave clark said:
Mike,
If you read the seller's description below, he uses the word,
"copy" in a generic sense and it is not obvious that the word,
"copy" means, "pirated copy."
Click to expand...
Dave, first let me say that your points are technically quite valid and lucidly made, and that I'm not looking for a debate. These piracy threads are always interesting, and often entertaining, containing much food for thought and usually illustrating a paradox or two. I suggest there's something rather paradoxical about the use of the word "copy". And thank you for quoting the listing in full, as I hadn't had the opportunity to check it out at e-bay. BTW, going back to the originating post, I suppose I'm less happy with Peter's caution (virtually a warning) to would be purchasers -- An appeal to "do the right thing" might have been more appropriate. I was originally concentrating more on the possible contention that the seller could be from our ranks.

While it's irksome to admit that crims, petty or otherwise, are intelligent, it's very naïve not to do so until the opposite is demonstrated. In this case, the auction listing is a veritable tour de force in both deception and CYA technique. Its most clever ploy is the usage of "orig retails for $50" and "copy".

I haven't checked the eBay rules on this, but I'm pretty certain that eBay, like any other similar entity that's aware of its potential liabilities, will require people selling software to state whether it is original or a copy and perhaps, if the latter, whether it's an authorised copy.

OK, in order to not look like a pirate, the vendor would have to claim to anyone challenging him about it that he was using "copy" generically, in just the way you suggest. And if he so claimed, neither Peter nor you nor I could prove that he was lying without at least seeing, physically, what he was selling. But conversely, if challenged by the eBay administration he would instead, to keep within the listing rules, have to aver that he was disclosing a copy in the non-original sense. Much the same thing with "orig retails for $50", which he would naturally explain as meaning either "the original [normally] retails at $50" or "It originally cost me $50", depending on who was asking.

There's also the suggestion in the description that more than one version can be had ("... a copy which includes..."). Sure, to the uninitiated this could be a reasonable state of affairs. But I would contend that we're talking about an enthusiast's product in the majority of cases. A niche product appealing only to an informed market. There would be a relatively limited demand from the P&S public, and in fact the description becomes highly esoteric as it gets into listing specific features and related software, none of which would have any immediate public appeal through merely being named. The likely bidder would tend to be, IMO, a person who would know very well how this package is made up; in all probability someone who's been to the Digital Secrets Web site more than once.

The question I'd be asking loudest, though, is why anyone would go to the trouble of writing such a lengthy, hyperbolic and carefully crafted blurb, just to sell one copy for a lousy $17 !!

Sorry, but not only does this auction description reek of a bulk or repetitive supply arrangement, but any potential purchaser who would honestly interpret it as a one-off sale simply shouldn't be let out after dark alone. Even the opening sentence, while technically pinning down nothing, says only one thing with its idiom, and says it pretty clearly IMO. He's not only appealing to a mass market, but appealing to people's desire to not be left out of the opportunity for a supposedly popular and useful acquisition: "... there is a need for owners of these great cameras ...".

People caught purchasing this sort of thing might well play innocent or even dumb. The thing is, I can't see the same people being accused, in another context, of the same order of gullibility without taking great offence.

Mike
dave clark28980 said:
Here is the sellers Ebay description:
Click to expand...
dave clark28980 said:
"I am relisting this auction b/c there is a need for owners of
these great cameras to learn their full potential! got a dsc f707
or f717? want to learn more than basic point and shoot functions?
this is the just released item for you! the sony advanced cybershot
ebook (orig retails for $50) by peter inova. this auction is for a
copy which includes: all viewing software (adobe acrobat reader
5+4.05, adobe photoshop 6 tryout fullversion,over 300 inovafx
photoshopactions,test strip 3.0 trial, panorama tools full version)
for windows/mac users included; pdf format.250pages.550+photos and
illustrations in full color indepth camera courses digital
photography lessons interactive text and guides hundreds of info
bites major demo software live internet connections pdf files in
high and ultra resolution custom inovafx photoshop actions acrobat
readers for macintosh/windows example files and much more!"

David Clark
Click to expand...
 
LoveMyGrandson said:
Peter iNova said:
Sorry to be brusque, but there is something a purchaser from this
site is doing that is thoroughly illegal.

A Louisiana dentist ([email protected].) is selling
illegal duplicates of my Sony eBook. If you buy from him, you could
be in trouble, too.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
. . . .

Thanks to the vast majority of people who are honest, fair-dealing, and responsibly law abiding, our social dealings go well most of the time. I'm sorry that the other sort of people think they can just get away with anything they wish.

You'd think that somebody trusted with surgical procedures, perscription writing authorizations and major medical licenses would be above this sort of thing.

-iNova

--
http://www.digitalsecrets.net
 
Peter iNova said:
Mike Fitzgerald said:
Sorry to hear about it, Peter; all the more so since people in that
game shouldn't be exactly on the bread line. Presumably he's a
lousy dentist (if he is one at all). Good luck with the follow-up.

But I'm curious about your reference to "a purchaser from this
site". Do you mean you have reason to suspect it's a subscriber to
dpReview?

Mike
Click to expand...
I have confirmed that he is a purchaser via the banners on this
site. That was the single helpful thing he did. By purchasing it
here, he helped support Phil's efforts. But then he decided to make
it all back illegally...

-iNova

--
http://www.itssony.com
Click to expand...
Not to mischaracterize anything, I see that his order came from another site. So he didn't help this site's efforts after all.

-iNova
--
http://www.digitalsecrets.net
 
dave clark said:
Tim Lauro said:
technically the buyer is guilty. morally too as the ad clearly
states it's a copy.
Click to expand...
Well maybe in some technical way it may be true, yes, - since the
Dentist was "honest" enough to mention he is selling copies.

Technically, most of us break the law every day by exceeding the
speed limit for a fraction of a second, but obviously common sense
wins out (most of the time.) That was the thrust of my last
message. Peter's remark seemed a little heavy handed - especially
since he was addressing his "friends" at the STF.

By the way, I like Peter and am glad for his participation here and
may one day buy his book. :-)

David Clark
Click to expand...
I was doing two things: general caution and backing it up with basic wisdom. Your (and my) speeding is one thing, but willfully receiving stolen property shipped across state lines is a huge hassle if you have to even appear in court about it once--just to have your hands slapped and be dismissed.

Pirate copies of all sorts of stuff are out there, but Interstate Commerce has very tough statutes against receiving or selling stolen property.

When the eBay deal sounds like it's too good to be true: It is.

-iNova
--
http://www.digitalsecrets.net
 
Thanks for your comments, Mike. It looks like you summed things up pretty well.

David Clark
Mike Fitzgerald said:
dave clark said:
Mike,
If you read the seller's description below, he uses the word,
"copy" in a generic sense and it is not obvious that the word,
"copy" means, "pirated copy."
Click to expand...
Dave, first let me say that your points are technically quite valid
and lucidly made, and that I'm not looking for a debate. These
piracy threads are always interesting, and often entertaining,
containing much food for thought and usually illustrating a paradox
or two. I suggest there's something rather paradoxical about the
use of the word "copy". And thank you for quoting the listing in
full, as I hadn't had the opportunity to check it out at e-bay.
BTW, going back to the originating post, I suppose I'm less happy
with Peter's caution (virtually a warning) to would be purchasers
-- An appeal to "do the right thing" might have been more
appropriate. I was originally concentrating more on the possible
contention that the seller could be from our ranks.

While it's irksome to admit that crims, petty or otherwise, are
intelligent, it's very naïve not to do so until the opposite is
demonstrated. In this case, the auction listing is a veritable tour
de force in both deception and CYA technique. Its most clever ploy
is the usage of "orig retails for $50" and "copy".

I haven't checked the eBay rules on this, but I'm pretty certain
that eBay, like any other similar entity that's aware of its
potential liabilities, will require people selling software to
state whether it is original or a copy and perhaps, if the latter,
whether it's an authorised copy.

OK, in order to not look like a pirate, the vendor would have to
claim to anyone challenging him about it that he was using "copy"
generically, in just the way you suggest. And if he so claimed,
neither Peter nor you nor I could prove that he was lying without
at least seeing, physically, what he was selling. But conversely,
if challenged by the eBay administration he would instead, to keep
within the listing rules, have to aver that he was disclosing a
copy in the non-original sense. Much the same thing with "orig
retails for $50", which he would naturally explain as meaning
either "the original [normally] retails at $50" or "It originally
cost me $50", depending on who was asking.

There's also the suggestion in the description that more than one
version can be had ("... a copy which includes..."). Sure, to the
uninitiated this could be a reasonable state of affairs. But I
would contend that we're talking about an enthusiast's product in
the majority of cases. A niche product appealing only to an
informed market. There would be a relatively limited demand from
the P&S public, and in fact the description becomes highly esoteric
as it gets into listing specific features and related software,
none of which would have any immediate public appeal through merely
being named. The likely bidder would tend to be, IMO, a person who
would know very well how this package is made up; in all
probability someone who's been to the Digital Secrets Web site more
than once.

The question I'd be asking loudest, though, is why anyone would go
to the trouble of writing such a lengthy, hyperbolic and carefully
crafted blurb, just to sell one copy for a lousy $17 !!

Sorry, but not only does this auction description reek of a bulk or
repetitive supply arrangement, but any potential purchaser who
would honestly interpret it as a one-off sale simply shouldn't be
let out after dark alone. Even the opening sentence, while
technically pinning down nothing, says only one thing with its
idiom, and says it pretty clearly IMO. He's not only appealing to a
mass market, but appealing to people's desire to not be left out of
the opportunity for a supposedly popular and useful acquisition:
"... there is a need for owners of these great cameras ...".

People caught purchasing this sort of thing might well play
innocent or even dumb. The thing is, I can't see the same people
being accused, in another context, of the same order of
gullibility without taking great offence.

Mike
Mike Fitzgerald said:
Here is the sellers Ebay description:
Click to expand...
Mike Fitzgerald said:
"I am relisting this auction b/c there is a need for owners of
these great cameras to learn their full potential! got a dsc f707
or f717? want to learn more than basic point and shoot functions?
this is the just released item for you! the sony advanced cybershot
ebook (orig retails for $50) by peter inova. this auction is for a
copy which includes: all viewing software (adobe acrobat reader
5+4.05, adobe photoshop 6 tryout fullversion,over 300 inovafx
photoshopactions,test strip 3.0 trial, panorama tools full version)
for windows/mac users included; pdf format.250pages.550+photos and
illustrations in full color indepth camera courses digital
photography lessons interactive text and guides hundreds of info
bites major demo software live internet connections pdf files in
high and ultra resolution custom inovafx photoshop actions acrobat
readers for macintosh/windows example files and much more!"

David Clark
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
I must have missed something, but what makes you think (and/or believe) that he's a dentist? Any dentist worth his degree can make more working on patients in the same amount of time it takes him to duplicate the material, post it on eBay, and then fulfill the sale...hehe...assuming of course, that he DOES fulfill it!

Loren
Peter iNova said:
You'd think that somebody trusted with surgical procedures,
perscription writing authorizations and major medical licenses
would be above this sort of thing.

-iNova

--
http://www.digitalsecrets.net
Click to expand...
--
http://www.pbase.com/lorenbc/
http://www.photosig.com/viewuser.php?id=4994
 
Loren Charif said:
I must have missed something, but what makes you think (and/or
believe) that he's a dentist? Any dentist worth his degree can
make more working on patients in the same amount of time it takes
him to duplicate the material, post it on eBay, and then fulfill
the sale...hehe...assuming of course, that he DOES fulfill it!

Loren
Click to expand...
Suffice to say that there has been a bunch of back-channel eMails flying about this. I know exactly who and where he is.

And here's the news of the hour: the guy settled before it went to hard ball. Would be nice for everyone if all legal things settled this quick.

-iNova
--
http://www.itssony.com
 
dave clark28980 said:
By the way, I like Peter and am glad for his participation here and
may one day buy his book. :-)

David Clark
Click to expand...
PSSST Dave,

I'll sell you my copy for $16! :P

Richard_
 
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