Olympus Customer Service - E-PL2 red dots

I bet the E-PL2 would not have a problem with that shot, either. It's well exposed, at a normal aperture (f/6.3) and the source is at an angle.

I'm thinking four factors here:
  • aperture, the narrower the more defined the dot flare
  • strength and direction of light, the stronger the source and the more directly it hits the sensor will result in this flare
  • exposure, it appears that it will show up more when the composition is, on the whole, underexposed
 
By all means, return it! How else can a manufacturer be forced to deal with and correct such a problem?

Photographing back light is one of the most rewarding photographic scenarios, because it can deliver very unique images. The most spectacular images aren't done with the usual high noon lighting conditions with the sun in the back.

There are a lot of good lenses (mostly primes, incl. the 1.7/20mm) for which the situations we talk about here, would not be a serious problem regarding flare artifacts. You might see few tiny flares, which you can get rid of with a very little change of your camera position, but they wouldn't be that massive.

To me the patterned flare indicates that this is not only the lens. We know that zoom lenses are more prone to flare because they have more glass contact planes and are more complex to correct. Better corrected lenses usually cost a lot more. But here it looks that the sensor interferes as well.

Chances that this can be fixed by firmware, are low. My guess is that Olympus needs to change lens or sensor coating to cope with it, which will be much more expensive than just modifying firmware. Leica had issues with infrafed light on their M8 cameras, which could only be fixed with an additional filter.

The amount of reports that have been given, exceeds by far any signs that other m4/3 cameras suffer from the same problem. Myself, I haven't seen any single case and I have shot around 10.000 images with three different m4/3 camera bodies.

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Thomas
 
... it is inherent in digital cameras.

Showed up on a D30 in 2001. Showed up on someone's iPhone. Showed up on an E-system body. It very likely shows up on quite a few cameras, but because a Chinese user with a camera that highly anticipated and not yet released in other parts of the world put up pics on the internet and caused a sensation. Since it can be duplicated, it was, and there you are: tempest in a tea pot.
Just because it's present in a few cameras doesn't mean it's "inherent in digital cameras". I've owned about 12 dSLRs and CSCs, and I haven't seen this in any of them. It's certainly possible that I haven't shot in conditions where it would be apparent, but I actually enjoy shooting will the sun in the frame and getting funky flare, etc. so I think I would have seen it.

Olympus does have a problem on its hands, and E-PL2 owners should know about this caveat so they can adjust their shooting accordingly.

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Sam Bennett - http://www.swiftbennett.com
 
All I'm saying is I can capture the same shot without suffering this issue provided I know what to do. I am literally pointing the sun directly into the camera to get this effect. It has never occurred to me when I normally use the camera, only when I deliberately sought it out. I bright LED flash light didn't do it, nor did other bright sources I could find in the house. I had to wait for the morning sun and blind myself looking at it to get the effect.

There is growing evidence that this has occurred with other cameras in the past (the earliest I could find on DPR was from 2001).

What I'm saying is that on a lot of earlier cameras these shots may have ended up looking like junk, period, but instead of red dots it would be white streaks/tears and huge color blobs. That you are getting red dots may be a result of a sensor or software's increasing ability to attempt to "rescue" the image.

In the end, it's just not that big a problem for me. I've never had it happen unless I tried to get it (and even then it took several attempts) but I'm sure it'll happen once in awhile, much like with my E-330 I'd end up with an ugly white tear on the image. It'll be a bad shot, and I'll just take it again while paying just a little more attention to the readout.
 
Hmm, you play that a bit down, aren't you?

I think we cannot compare a system camera with an iPhone.

If the same problems have occured in some earlier DSLRs, my impression is that the manufacturers learnt how to deal with it. I haven't seen any reports that the current line of system cameras (DSLRs) shows such patterns. So we can expect that a respectable manufacturer like Olympus takes such problems into account when designing a product.

Sure Olympus is not alone in this regard. Many problems, which were not detected until release date can be fixed with firmware. But we also know a lot of cases in the recent years, where major players faced big hardware issues, in areas, where we believed that they can manage the technological challenges. I recall the Canon EOS 1D autofocus problems and the Leica M8 infrared issues.

To accept the problem with "well this is inherent to digital, just compose differently and take other shots", makes it a bit too easy for the manufacturers.
... it is inherent in digital cameras.

Showed up on a D30 in 2001. Showed up on someone's iPhone. Showed up on an E-system body. It very likely shows up on quite a few cameras, but because a Chinese user with a camera that highly anticipated and not yet released in other parts of the world put up pics on the internet and caused a sensation. Since it can be duplicated, it was, and there you are: tempest in a tea pot.
--
Thomas
 
What I'm saying is that on a lot of earlier cameras these shots may have ended up looking like junk, period, but instead of red dots it would be white streaks/tears and huge color blobs.
Yes, certainly this is a situation in which CCDs would look terrible - my D50 used to do that. But that's also why some of us don't use CCDs anymore.
That you are getting red dots may be a result of a sensor or software's increasing ability to attempt to "rescue" the image.
I think that's highly unlikely, this looks to me like a purely optical problem.
In the end, it's just not that big a problem for me. I've never had it happen unless I tried to get it (and even then it took several attempts) but I'm sure it'll happen once in awhile, much like with my E-330 I'd end up with an ugly white tear on the image. It'll be a bad shot, and I'll just take it again while paying just a little more attention to the readout.
That's certainly everyone has to decide for himself. I have a bunch of "creative" shots from my trip to Europe that were screwed up by the D50's blooming issues, and fixing them was a huge pain in the ass. For me, simply not taking the photo isn't an option - especially if there's other gear that doesn't suffer the same problem. If a tool gets in my way, I use a different tool.

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Sam Bennett - http://www.swiftbennett.com
 
E620 40- 150mm F22





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http://www.flickr.com/photos/satyrium_w/
E 620,E 51o 2x kit, EX 25, 35mm, 5omm; EC2o,
7o-3oo, 50-200, panaTz7, E-pl1,VF-2 ,14-42mm m4/3,mf 35mm f 1.7 SLRM.
some old manuel focusing lenses.
 
I agree that it is a problem if it interferes with ones photography.

However, I'm having a hard time finding out if it's indeed really the body or the lens. I know there have been no reports on it with the E-PL1 or earlier PENs. But the fact is that Olympus have stated (not in a disucussion related to the red spots) that the sensor and filter assembly in the E-PL2 are the same as in the earlier model.

What has changed is the kit lens. The lens flare could somehow be reflected on the sensor back and forth a few times to produce this result.

So I would like to see some testing done: can someone try the NEW kit lens on the E-PL1 and reproduce the red spots? And then verify that the E-PL2 with the OLD kit lens (or another lens) does not produce it?

BTW I just pointed my PEN F 40mm lens at a halogen light, closed the aperture down and did get some red spot like appearances on the E-PL1. No way near the pattern of the E-PL2 pics.

In general, I think there's a lot of talk about this issue, without much substantive knowledge about the nature of it, as of yet.
By all means, return it! How else can a manufacturer be forced to deal with and correct such a problem?

Photographing back light is one of the most rewarding photographic scenarios, because it can deliver very unique images. The most spectacular images aren't done with the usual high noon lighting conditions with the sun in the back.

There are a lot of good lenses (mostly primes, incl. the 1.7/20mm) for which the situations we talk about here, would not be a serious problem regarding flare artifacts. You might see few tiny flares, which you can get rid of with a very little change of your camera position, but they wouldn't be that massive.

To me the patterned flare indicates that this is not only the lens. We know that zoom lenses are more prone to flare because they have more glass contact planes and are more complex to correct. Better corrected lenses usually cost a lot more. But here it looks that the sensor interferes as well.

Chances that this can be fixed by firmware, are low. My guess is that Olympus needs to change lens or sensor coating to cope with it, which will be much more expensive than just modifying firmware. Leica had issues with infrafed light on their M8 cameras, which could only be fixed with an additional filter.

The amount of reports that have been given, exceeds by far any signs that other m4/3 cameras suffer from the same problem. Myself, I haven't seen any single case and I have shot around 10.000 images with three different m4/3 camera bodies.

--
Thomas
--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bilgy_no1
 
In general, I think there's a lot of talk about this issue, without much substantive knowledge about the nature of it, as of yet.
Agreed. And we won't know it for sure until Olympus officially responds somewhere. It remains that there is a severe issue with the EPL-2 kit, which should make every buyer very cautious, if he would take the risk to buy that kit in this situation. Knowing that this problem lurks everytime I have a strong back light source, would make me very uncomfortable with my tool.

--
Thomas
 
Could be. The image shown is a pretty standard challenge for any other m4/3 camera on the market and I doubt that they would show the red dot effect (if not I must know my equipment not very well).
different type photos - but I think if I shot these with the E-PL2 I would get red dots.



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Thomas
 
Knowing that this problem lurks everytime I have a strong back light source, would make me very uncomfortable with my tool.
It's not every time. It doesn't lurk. I had to force the right conditions. Can it happen? Sure? I expect I'll run into it without looking for it eventually. But as a person who actually owns the camera I'd say it's just about at the same chance as I would with any other camera where I take a bad shot due to a strong light source interfering with the image.

I think I'm going to have to go look for trouble and take a bunch of shots with the sun somewhere in the composition. It'll be interesting to see what happens. Will have to wait until the weekend. Winter still makes it pretty tough to find the sun after work.
 
The fact that it has shown up before can't hide the fact that it appears to be much worse on the E-PL2.

I find it interesting that all of the naysayers who ridiculed the early posts about this problem by users in Taiwan and Hong Kong, now have nothing to say about this issue (unfortunately, there are some xenophobes on this forum).

Anyone who claims this problem is inherent needs to post side by side pictures of the same scene showing red dots in both the E-PL2 and another camera.
 
The fact that it has shown up before can't hide the fact that it appears to be much worse on the E-PL2.
It being worse depends on what you mean by worse, as I hope to demonstrate below.
I find it interesting that all of the naysayers who ridiculed the early posts about this problem by users in Taiwan and Hong Kong, now have nothing to say about this issue (unfortunately, there are some xenophobes on this forum).
I'm not a naysayer. I do not ridicule. I'm an E-PL2 owner who decided to test his own camera.

You are saying this effect would not appear in other cameras. You may be correct. It may be that the effect is more prevalent with the E-PL2. What you have not noted is that it doesn't matter because the effect occurs in an exposure that on another camera the same shot would be just as bad only without the red dots . Both shots would be considered unusable (though I see the possibility of artistic interpretation for either).

I've gotten pretty good at creating the effect 100% of the time, now that I know that all I need is:
  • f/11 or higher to guarantee the effect (it can show at wider apertures but the effect is more distinct when stopped down)
  • a ridiculously bright light source pointed directly at the camera (it can be off-center, but the light is still bearing down on the sensor just the same)
  • the "correct" exposure
Here is the E-PL2 at f/11 in A priority:



Here is an FZ5, also on A priority (set to smallest aperture of f/8). You'll have to excuse me, I don't own another MFT or DSLR but this shot addresses the point:



Both are unusable. Frankly, I'm seeing the beginnings of purple dot flare in the FZ5 shot. If I tried hard enough I can probably reproduce the effect... maybe even in red instead of purple if I resolve it enough.

The FZ5 doesn't have red dots, but it's still crap. What's interesting is that what would be a bad shot with another camera shows some interesting avenues for expression on the E-PL2. Some have mentioned.. this red dot effect can prove interesting.

Any conventional composition where the bright light source is taken into account can be had very easily, provided you control the camera instead of leaving the camera on automatic for what is arguably a difficult composition with a dynamic range exceeding that of the film/sensor.

I can either overexpose the light source to get a big white blob but get decent exposure of the background and reduce the red dots to just a hint, similar to the light purple blobs of the FZ5 exposure:



Or I can underexpose to isolate the actual light source:



I could probably do more if I implemented ND filters, too.

The flare characteristics are dependent on the glass and the 14-42 II doesn't give the same spikiness of the FZ5, but you find the right glass or filter and you can get the flare you want. But still, the flare is not red dot flare. It's flare on a picture that's on a whole more interesting than what the camera gave on aperture priority, be it red dot or big white spiky dominating blob.

The problem is people keep pointing the E-PL2 at the sun, and there is no doubt about it, you do this, you get red dots. There is also no doubt that if you do this with another camera, you're gonna get an equally bad shot, maybe without red dots, but bad just the same.

Here is my point : this is what happens with an E-PL2 when you point it at a bright light source, particularly with a stopped down lens. On another camera, you may not get red dots but you will still get an exposure that is crap. Crap is still crap, red dots or no . You can take the same shot but control it directly instead of keeping the camera on Program or Priority. The whole point of system cameras is providing the photographer with control... so take control. Just because the camera can resolve an image a bit better but leave you with red dots doesn't mean the image was actually okay despite the red dots. To me, the red dots equal what would look like a big white blob of crap on another camera.

In the end, all I can say is this: I own an E-PL2 and I know how to reproduce red dots, and it happens when I take a bad shot that would still be bad on any other camera even if it wasn't red dots but just a big white mess.

I am satisfied that the camera operates within acceptable photographic parameters and that certain shots, when left to the camera's automatic program, will fail like any other camera but will do so in a distinct pattern of red dots rather than a big white overexposed blob, but I as the operator can compensate and decide what I actually want of the composition.

If you're a person who likes to use P, A or S when composing a shot with a ridiculously bright, dominating flare for your pictures, then the E-PL2 is not for you as it will give you an almost decent exposure with a grid of red dots instead of a big white dominating blob when in any mode that uses the software's metering calculation.
 
First of all it does not matter in this subject, if somebody owns this camera. Customers need to be aware that the problem is more serious than with the competition, and therefore must consider a purchase very carefully. The way to avoid the red dots is easy, just don't point to the sun, which most photographers won't do to that extreme anyway.

The problem is that many have posted images, including the OP, where such problems should not occur, and where with other cameras than the EPL-2 kit the problems would not occur. These are the often photographically attractive situations, where you just put the sun as a part of your composition, not the examples you have constructed, which nobody would seriously take an image of.

The red dot pattern should not exist at all with a high quality system camera in the price range of the EPL-2 kit . Period.

Olympus should better react quickly and publicly, before the problem leads to reduced sales and more rumor in the discussion groups.

--
Thomas
 
The red dot pattern should not exist at all with a high quality system camera in the price range of the EPL-2 kit . Period.
And i'm saying red dot overexposure exists but is not this huge problem that requires a recall. It is a phenomenon the E-PL2 shows more readily instead of big white overexposed blobs when composing a scene under specific situations.

I own the E-PL2 and I decided to see if I could figure out what all the fuss was about. After some tests decided to share my findings. Everyone can go ahead and discuss away for the next month or however long this will go on. I've got my answers and I'm satisfied with my conclusions.

I'll be out taking pictures. Even some with the sun in them. And I'll be as happy as a clam doing so.

Cheers.
 
I agree that most of the pictures showing red dots are crap and should not have been taken anyway because they would be bad on any camera (although without dots).
But the dots also show on other shots that are not that bad at all like this one



Personally I like the exposure in this picture and it would have been a nice shot if there were no red dots, eg. with an EPL1 this would have been a very good picture.
 
Olympus should better react quickly and publicly, before the problem leads to reduced sales and more rumor in the discussion groups.
. . . Your long running crusade against Oly's PEN cameras is getting a little tiresome. You don't own these cameras which is fine but but why the incessant drum beat on Panasonic's behalf in these threads about Olympus' issues? This reduced sales talk is just nonsense and you know it. People love these compacts with big sensors and Panny better get on board with a real upgrade to the GF1 before they get left at the train station wondering what went wrong.
 
Very easy. As soon Olympus makes a non-PEN style m4/3 body with good ergonomics and a build-in VF, I will shut my mouth and buy this body, provided IQ is ok and does not have red dots.

The PEN owners and pocketability extremists do their crusade for their case, I do it in favor for another Olympus m4/3 body line.

The red dot problem has nothing to do with it. But I think it is a bit too much downplayed here, when people claim here that this is just normal, inherent in digital and that we just have to compose differently. At the same token, the GH1 lug problem was rightfully raised here also to at least the same level (probably much more), and Panasonic probably had to learn a lesson (this goes also for the peeling rubber coating, both problems have been addressed).

I was on the way to seek another smaller m4/3 body in addition to my GH2 for use with my two pancakes. I have looked at the EPL-2 and found the control layout to be awkward and AF performance a bit slow. The GF2 was a little faster and the control wheel better positioned, but I did not think that it was worth the investment because the IQ isn't there yet. Now the red dot problem with the EPL-2. Should I buy it under this circumstances? Should we be quite and just accept that the manufacturer did not pay attention? If potential buyers (= not current owners) do not voice their discomfort with the current situation, how should a manufacturer take his lesson? It took years of drum beating (call it a crusade) that ISO number should be displayed in the view finder. Now, after constant forum talk about it, we got it finally almost everywhere. The demand for DSLRs with tilt screen has finally got attention. I think the first live view DSLR (well the E-300 probably had it, but nevertheless) should have had this already.

I have no sympathy with Olympus that they neglect their traditional customer group, who want to replace their DSLR system with something smaller but similar completely (especially with respect to the uncertain future of 4/3). I think it is ok to express that, even repeatedly, if Olympus does not do anything about, knowing that a single opinion does not matter.

On the same token, the forum is full of posts regarding Oly colors are of prime importance and that the GH2 is only something for videographers. It is worth to take a different stance to this opinions.

I have said before that I am not an Olympus hater. I have looked always into their DSLR lines ready to buy them. But the poor view finders (E-xxx series) and the comparably high noise level never made the cut.

This is a discussion group. The goal of this is not to equalize all opinions.
Olympus should better react quickly and publicly, before the problem leads to reduced sales and more rumor in the discussion groups.
. . . Your long running crusade against Oly's PEN cameras is getting a little tiresome. You don't own these cameras which is fine but but why the incessant drum beat on Panasonic's behalf in these threads about Olympus' issues? This reduced sales talk is just nonsense and you know it. People love these compacts with big sensors and Panny better get on board with a real upgrade to the GF1 before they get left at the train station wondering what went wrong.
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Thomas
 

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