Did 60D just crash down in flames?

Earthlight

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I have been looking for a backup for my 1DsMkII and recently bought a mint 1000D dirt cheap as a stopgap measure.

So, now that the 600D was announced, what is the point of getting the 60D? The thumbwheel probably as it's really a big deal. But then again I might just get a second hand 5D.

Earthlight

--

http://jari.pic.fi/kuvat/
 
So, now that the 600D was announced, what is the point of getting the 60D? The thumbwheel probably as it's really a big deal.
Well the size does matter ;) , top LCD ... higher fps...
 
I have been looking for a backup for my 1DsMkII and recently bought a mint 1000D dirt cheap as a stopgap measure.

So, now that the 600D was announced, what is the point of getting the 60D? The thumbwheel probably as it's really a big deal. But then again I might just get a second hand 5D.
I agree.... the 5D is exactly the same camera: Lightweight, APS-C, Pentamirror, only one comand dial, no top LCD, .....

What the heck are you talking about? Of cause you can buy either a brand new Volkswagen or a used .. say Porsche. Both are cars. Would you say they are both the same?

Still, for some applications the Volkswagen might just be the better choice... for sure not the nicer choice :-)
 
The articulated screen of the 60D interests me and it has a max shutter speed of 1/8000 and as I've hit that quite a few times dropping down to 1/4000 with a xxxD/xxxD would worry me.

I'm sure that the 5D was / is a very nice camera but they're getting older now so reliability could be an issue with mirror attachment and shutter life questions plus a built in flash is a must for me.

All in all I'd say that the 60D still has strengths against both an old 5D and the new entry level stuff.
 
ordering my 60d today still
in my hands it fits like a glove

I have much dislike for the grip on the rebel series, I don't even have big hands yet the grip is just ugh, I don't like it
so no worries from me
 
I have been looking for a backup for my 1DsMkII and recently bought a mint 1000D dirt cheap as a stopgap measure.

So, now that the 600D was announced, what is the point of getting the 60D? The thumbwheel probably as it's really a big deal. But then again I might just get a second hand 5D.

Earthlight

--

http://jari.pic.fi/kuvat/
It will depend on the price.

Right now the 60D has its price lowered to $930 and the new T3i will start out at $800. With only a $130 between the two, the 60D will hang in there. Now, if the $300 price gap comes back that we had with the T2i, then we could see a bigger drop off of 60D sales.

Ken
 
Not flames, but it is smoldering a bit for some users.

Look - the xxxD/Rebel series has always bumped up against the xxD series in terms of features/sensor MP, etc., in some cases surpassing their more pro-sumer siblings. There must be some method to Canon's madness in this regard since they keep doing it.

For me personally, I'd still go with the 60D, mainly for the ergonomics. I sold my T2i the day the 60D was released to go with the larger camera (plus I really wanted the swizel screen) (I also own a 5DII). But the new 600D/T3i may sway some would-be 60D users to the smaller camera. Or some existing 60D people may downsize. Also some current 60D users who want a second camera for backup would go with the new Rebel instead of another xxD camera.

But either way, I don't see the new T3i as the death knell for the 60D. Rather, it will make the 60D less attractive for some buyers, and others won't care about the new Rebel. But Canon still gets the sale.
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View my photo galleries here: http://imageevent.com/24peter
 
I just bought a 60D today, so I've been through the specs of both that, and the 550D (and now 600D) pretty thoroughly recently. I don't think the 600D will replace the 60D at all, at least no more than the 550D has. Considering the 550D, 600D, 60D and 7D all basically use the same sensor, it's speed and other features, as well as build quality, that influenced my decision (along with price).

The 60D shoots quite a bit faster and can buffer more, especially when shooting RAW.

550D / 600D = 6 RAW before filling buffer
60D = 16 RAW before filling

The 60D has the nicer, brighter pentaprism viewfinder, faster shutter speed (1/8000 vs. 1/4000 of the 550D and 600D), and I believe while all 3 use a 9 point AF system, I think the 60D uses cross type points everywhere as opposed to just the center point like the 550D and 600D, which should result in a better AF system overall. Still not as good as the 7D, but nice.

As for ergonomics, I think the 60D also feels nicer in your hand, and the button configuration is better in my opinion to either the 550D or 600D (at least form the preview I read on this site).
 
I can't believe that only one comment here has mentioned the top LCD. To me that's an undervalued feature not found in the Rebel line. Makes quick work of changing settings without the need to invoke the back LCD. Although there's no harm in including it, it is intriguing (to me, at least) that they chose to include wireless flash control on a camera model aimed at the beginners end of the market.

There's plenty still going for the 60D...although IQ isn't one of them. For the price difference it seems like the 60 is an easier sell to someone considering the 600 compared to the old 7 vs. 60 question.

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Eric

http://mk3.smugmug.com
 
Lol, I'm with you.

I personally would never shoot with a Rebel. I simply don't enjoy having to look at the back LCD for simple shooting parameters like my Av or ISO.

They're great cameras, but they're not comfortable to shoot with. I really respect Rebel owners, how they put up with that inconvenience is beyond me. I couldn't do it without breaking something.
I can't believe that only one comment here has mentioned the top LCD. To me that's an undervalued feature not found in the Rebel line. Makes quick work of changing settings without the need to invoke the back LCD. Although there's no harm in including it, it is intriguing (to me, at least) that they chose to include wireless flash control on a camera model aimed at the beginners end of the market.

There's plenty still going for the 60D...although IQ isn't one of them. For the price difference it seems like the 60 is an easier sell to someone considering the 600 compared to the old 7 vs. 60 question.

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Eric

http://mk3.smugmug.com
 
The differences have been pretty well noted, though I would add the bigger battery to the list as well. You can get a LOT more photos with 60D battery.
There's plenty still going for the 60D...although IQ isn't one of them. >
Technically speaking, this is correct. However, I think the better viewfinder and the better AF points certainly have to result in more 'keepers' :)

From my perspective, I think it boils down to if you shoot RAW or not. If you shoot RAW, you will probably appreciate the advantages of the 60D. If you shoot .jpg all the time, you probably won't.

The 600D is a great addition to the Canon line. It will compete well with other brands.

--
I like blue M&M's best.
 
From my perspective, I think it boils down to if you shoot RAW or not. If you shoot RAW, you will probably appreciate the advantages of the 60D. If you shoot .jpg all the time, you probably won't.
No, Idon't think so... you can shoot with a Rebel RAW just the same.

The difference for me is the way you take photos:

I am an xxD user and normally I take care qhen I shoot. Means: I leave my "big gun" at home, if I know that I can not concentrate on shooting (take a Sunday out with the family as an example)- in such cases I have a G10 with me, just in case :-)

I suspect that the Rebel shooter (on average) is more flexible than I am: He (or she) has the camera all the time with him (her), it is quite a bit lighter and smaller, so it's easier.

What is the better way? No such thing! Just different approaches.
 
Andreas, I agree with your points. Perhaps I didn't express my point well though?

I think that if you are the type of photographer that does shoot RAW, you are likely the same type of photographer who would appreciate things like a larger buffer, a larger battery, LCD, faster frame rate, etc.
From my perspective, I think it boils down to if you shoot RAW or not. If you shoot RAW, you will probably appreciate the advantages of the 60D. If you shoot .jpg all the time, you probably won't.
No, Idon't think so... you can shoot with a Rebel RAW just the same.

The difference for me is the way you take photos:

I am an xxD user and normally I take care qhen I shoot. Means: I leave my "big gun" at home, if I know that I can not concentrate on shooting (take a Sunday out with the family as an example)- in such cases I have a G10 with me, just in case :-)

I suspect that the Rebel shooter (on average) is more flexible than I am: He (or she) has the camera all the time with him (her), it is quite a bit lighter and smaller, so it's easier.

What is the better way? No such thing! Just different approaches.
--
I like blue M&M's best.
 
So, now that the 600D was announced, what is the point of getting the 60D? The thumbwheel probably as it's really a big deal. But then again I might just get a second hand 5D.

Earthlight
RAW buffering capacity has always been a limitation of the XXXD/Rebel bodies. This has always been an intentional differentiator between the XXXD and XXD bodies. The 600D has a RAW buffering capacity of only 6 frames. The 60D has a RAW buffering capacity of 16 frames! Why is this a big deal? Well, because with any amount of brisk-paced shooting in RAW mode, the 600D's buffer quickly fills up. For example, when doing a model or portrait shoot, I typically might shoot at a pace of 1 to 2 frames per second. A XXXD body like the 600D can't even handle this modestly brisk pace of shooting without bottlenecking after a few minutes because its RAW buffer is just too small to handle that steady influx of RAW files. But with an XXD camera like the 60D, this is never an issue because the 16 frame RAW buffer is huge compared to the 600D's. The 60D's RAW buffering capacity is almost three times as large. That means no bottlenecking, and totally unimpeded shooting throughput.

Of course, I know this from personal experience because I starting shooting digital with the 10D, which had a RAW buffering capacity of 9 frames. But the 10D had a relatively low write speed, so I'd regularly have bottlenecking, waiting for the buffer to clear. Then I went to a 20D, which supposedly had faster write speeds, but the RAW buffering capacity went down to 6 frames (probably due to the increase in resolution from 6mp to 8mp). So bottlenecking was still a regular issue with the 20D. By the time I got the 40D, its RAW buffer had been increased to 17 frames!!! Finally, no bottleneck! Now, with the 60D we have a 16 frame RAW buffer, which is still excellent considering the enormous increase in resolution and file size that we have with the 60D (18mp with the 60D vs only 10mp on the 40D).

So with the 600D's tiny 6 frame RAW buffer, trying to flush huge 18mp RAW files, you can imagine that this is going to be a major issue for anyone who wants to shoot at a brisk pace. If you're just a casual shooter who only shoots JPEGs, this won't be an issue. But for RAW shooters, it's definitely an issue.

With the Canon 5D, a camera that Canon knew was going to be heavily used by portrait and model shooters, Canon gave the 5D a RAW buffering capacity of 17 RAW frames right from the start, even though it only had a frame rate of 3fps. This ensured steady, unimpeded image throughput for a typical portrait/model shoot or any reasonably brisk-paced shooting situation. This is stuff that a 600D's 6 frame RAW buffer can't handle. And definitely not with those massive 18mp RAW files. But, of course, the 600D is a camera catering to amateur and casual shooters, so this probably won't be an issue for them. And it may not even be an issue they may ever become aware of. But for more advanced shooters with higher needs, it's definitely a major limitation.
 
And BTW, people need to understand that the Rebel/XXXD models are Canon's real bread-and-butter cameras. They probably sell as man Rebel/XXXD models as all their other models combined. But that does not mean that their other models are failures, or that they shouldn't make their other models at all, even though their other models may sell in smaller volumes. Canon wants to cater to a wide variety of users. And, indeed, the sales of their Rebel/XXXD models may even finance the R&D of their other lower-volume models. Not every model needs to be a blockbuster. Canon will probably sell more 600Ds than the 60D, and they will probably sell more 60Ds than the 7D. Does that mean the 7D is a failure? Of course not. There's a place for each these cameras, and a user for each of these cameras.
 
I think it will boil down to the smaller things rather than IQ, noise etc.

The 600D seems to have a few new features on it as well but i cant get over how basic it looks compared to the 60D. Less buttons means more time spent in the menus.
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Dave.
Dave, I beg to differ. All these sensors are very good, and the days of anal pixel peeping are waning (and thankfully so).

We are now gaining parity with the film SLR days, where all SLRs used the same sensor (ie, film), and the differences in the cameras came down to other things other than the sensor. In the case of the 600D and 60D, the differences are things like body size, body weight, handling, frame rate, buffering capacity, top LCD vs no top LCD, one cross-type AF sensor vs nine cross-type AF sensors, battery capacity, etc, etc. In other words, it was the same kind of non-sensor differences that we looked at back in the film SLR days.
 
So, now that the 600D was announced, what is the point of getting the 60D?
Another advantage of the 60D is that it offers M-RAW and S-RAW options, For us RAW shooters, we don't always feel the need to shoot everything at full 18mp RAW. For example, when I shoot weddings, I shoot most of the candid shots in M-RAW, which gives me 10mp images. That's still plenty of resolution for these shots. (I used to shoot entire weddings with a 40D which had 10mp.) And it saves a lot of storage space, especially for images that will probably never be printed larger than 8x10 (if they get printed at all). But for the portraits and more important shots, I switch to 60D's full 18mp RAW. Also, if I'm shooting my own casual family pictures or party pictures with friends or whatnot, I'll also shoot M-RAW. But whether shooting M-RAW or full RAW, I still get all the adjustment benefits of RAW. And it's nice to have the option of what RAW resolution you want to use.

The 600D, on the other hand, only offers one RAW option: full RAW.

So for a RAW shooter, the 600D definitely isn't as flexible. You have a much smaller RAW buffering capacity, and you don't have the option of M-RAW or S-RAW.
 
So, now that the 600D was announced, what is the point of getting the 60D?
Another advantage of the 60D is that it offers M-RAW and S-RAW options, For us RAW shooters, we don't always feel the need to shoot everything at full 18mp RAW. For example, when I shoot weddings, I shoot most of the candid shots in M-RAW, which gives me 10mp images. That's still plenty of resolution for these shots. (I used to shoot entire weddings with a 40D which had 10mp.) And it saves a lot of storage space, especially for images that will probably never be printed larger than 8x10 (if they get printed at all).
I don't quite get why anyone would shoot at less than full resolution when 32 GB SD cards are 50 bucks.

Sam K., NYC
 

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