What if the D3s is Nikon's answer to the 5DM2?

ScottMac · Feb 5, 2011

RustyKnee said:
RustyKnee said:

I have the strong sense that those on this thread who are against a true improvement over the D3/D700 are those who spent their money on those models, and have a gnawing resentment that their shiny toy is going to be obsolete.

Click to expand...

I think you are right.

I think only partially right. Much of the resentment is because they truly only will ever need 12 MP and they don't like it when people take the stance that 12 MP is not good enough. I'm not so sure they think their D700 will ever be obsolete, for them.

RustyKnee said:
Some people seem to take it personally. Claiming Nikons are so good they don't need to progress.

I do want them to progress even if it makes my D700 "obsolete", even though I don't intend to change my 700 for a good while. I want it to move Nikons game on and for them to make the best cameras.

No one is saying you have to upgrade every generation! But Nikon should keep making the best cameras they can.

Some of it though is due to out dated views such as high iso/low noise and higher MP.

Video I am less interested in, but it is inevitable I think. No one is forcing anyone to use it.

Although...as to asking why no 5D Mk2 competitor over and over and over and over.....maybe Nikon dind't think it was so important,

Okay, now you are losing me. Nikon didn't think high MP and FF 1080 video is important and that's why they don't have it? Are you serious???

RustyKnee said:
maybe they couldn't or didn't know how to do it to their satisfaction, maybe they didn't want to get burnt with wibble wobbly jelly video like from the D90 again.

Come on, do you really think it isn't technically possible to make a 5DM2 spec? Maybe they don't know how to do it and make money now that Canon dominates the FF 21 MP 1080 video with a $2,300 camera.

RustyKnee said:
Who cares....they didn't do it.

Who cares? Well, obviously, not you!!!

RustyKnee said:
Wait and see what the next gen offers.

And how long do you propose anyone should wait? Couple more years, or what?

mgblack74 · Feb 6, 2011

Is that ScottMac is on a mission to have this thread hit 150. Honestly, not one mention anywhere about image quality from a still camera. Just the nauseating rant of the lack of video from a still camera. You have a MF camera and a 5D II that meets your needs just let us lowly amateurs and non video pros wallow in our own lackluster technology. There. One more on your quest to 150.

ScottMac said:
RustyKnee said:

ScottMac said:

I have the strong sense that those on this thread who are against a true improvement over the D3/D700 are those who spent their money on those models, and have a gnawing resentment that their shiny toy is going to be obsolete.

Click to expand...

I think you are right.

Click to expand...

I think only partially right. Much of the resentment is because they truly only will ever need 12 MP and they don't like it when people take the stance that 12 MP is not good enough. I'm not so sure they think their D700 will ever be obsolete, for them.

ScottMac said:

Some people seem to take it personally. Claiming Nikons are so good they don't need to progress.

I do want them to progress even if it makes my D700 "obsolete", even though I don't intend to change my 700 for a good while. I want it to move Nikons game on and for them to make the best cameras.

No one is saying you have to upgrade every generation! But Nikon should keep making the best cameras they can.

Some of it though is due to out dated views such as high iso/low noise and higher MP.

Video I am less interested in, but it is inevitable I think. No one is forcing anyone to use it.

Although...as to asking why no 5D Mk2 competitor over and over and over and over.....maybe Nikon dind't think it was so important,

Click to expand...

Okay, now you are losing me. Nikon didn't think high MP and FF 1080 video is important and that's why they don't have it? Are you serious???

ScottMac said:

maybe they couldn't or didn't know how to do it to their satisfaction, maybe they didn't want to get burnt with wibble wobbly jelly video like from the D90 again.

Click to expand...

Come on, do you really think it isn't technically possible to make a 5DM2 spec? Maybe they don't know how to do it and make money now that Canon dominates the FF 21 MP 1080 video with a $2,300 camera.

ScottMac said:

Who cares....they didn't do it.

Click to expand...

Who cares? Well, obviously, not you!!!

ScottMac said:

Wait and see what the next gen offers.

Click to expand...

And how long do you propose anyone should wait? Couple more years, or what?

--
"You're guaranteed to miss 100% of the shots you don't take" - Wayne Gretzky

RustyKnee · Feb 6, 2011

ScottMac said:
RustyKnee said:

ScottMac said:

I have the strong sense that those on this thread who are against a true improvement over the D3/D700 are those who spent their money on those models, and have a gnawing resentment that their shiny toy is going to be obsolete.

Click to expand...

I think you are right.

Click to expand...

I think only partially right. Much of the resentment is because they truly only will ever need 12 MP and they don't like it when people take the stance that 12 MP is not good enough. I'm not so sure they think their D700 will ever be obsolete, for them.

Actually I agree with this and nearly mentioned it in my previous post.

Some people don't want the next gen to be better so they don't "have" to upgrade. There are those that can't upgrade, but feel threatened that their kit is out of date. There are those that will upgrade even if what ever spec/performace metric (MP, Video etc) is a tiny increment (Say 12MP to 16MP), I really don't get why anyone would "upgrade" to another 12MP, even if it's the D3S sensor. Nikon can (or should be able to IMO) do better than the the D3S sensor now.

All are gear head tendencies I guess. Thats not a dig at gear heads! I am a one.

As for being happy with the D700, thats perfectly fine....and if you are (as I am) you don't need to upgrade.

ScottMac said:
ScottMac said:

Some people seem to take it personally. Claiming Nikons are so good they don't need to progress.

I do want them to progress even if it makes my D700 "obsolete", even though I don't intend to change my 700 for a good while. I want it to move Nikons game on and for them to make the best cameras.

No one is saying you have to upgrade every generation! But Nikon should keep making the best cameras they can.

Some of it though is due to out dated views such as high iso/low noise and higher MP.

Video I am less interested in, but it is inevitable I think. No one is forcing anyone to use it.

Although...as to asking why no 5D Mk2 competitor over and over and over and over.....maybe Nikon dind't think it was so important,

Click to expand...

Okay, now you are losing me. Nikon didn't think high MP and FF 1080 video is important and that's why they don't have it? Are you serious???

ScottMac said:

maybe they couldn't or didn't know how to do it to their satisfaction, maybe they didn't want to get burnt with wibble wobbly jelly video like from the D90 again.

Click to expand...

Come on, do you really think it isn't technically possible to make a 5DM2 spec? Maybe they don't know how to do it and make money now that Canon dominates the FF 21 MP 1080 video with a $2,300 camera.

My statement was meant to apply for at the time of release of the D3 and D700.

From the point of view of when the D3 and D700 were released...........The 5Dii was not out! let alone being gobbled up for its video. How would Nikon know? You are using 20 20 hindsight!

ScottMac said:
ScottMac said:

Who cares....they didn't do it.

Click to expand...

Who cares? Well, obviously, not you!!!

ScottMac said:

Wait and see what the next gen offers.

Click to expand...

And how long do you propose anyone should wait? Couple more years, or what?

I do care actually, but not being a pro I have more important things to worry about. (Not being sarcastic).

Yes the D3S was released after the 5Dii, and your thread title is actually quite valid in that context. I don't think it was their direct answer....the D3S isn't nikons answer to the 5Dii, that is plainly obvious. But chronologically, and the video "hype" lust/need what ever, they added what they could in the time they had.

I think you are trivialising (is there such a word?) the effort required to make a new camera,

combined with ignoring the fact that Nikon and canon don't tend to mirror each other products exactly.

combined with company road maps, yes there is some flex I am sure....would Canon have added video if it wasn't for the D90 (I don't know, just asking). Why do you expect them (either brand) to make a new camera every a competiters feature takes them by suprise? And the responses you get asked where is canons answer to the d700 realting to iso performace, build etc are all valid.....its just they don't matter to you and poopoo it.....and you get animated when people poopoo what you keep asking for. swings and roundabouts fella!

I chose Nikon because of the features it offers over canon, canon have features I like too, but nikon has more I like.

I like that they offer different features with some overlap. That provides choice.

I want nikon and canon to make the best they can, but if the start banging cameras out in some sort of knee jerk reaction method then that will expensive, lead to fundamental mistakes and will be just plain sad.

Brand A brings a camera out, 2 months later Brand B does too with some surprising feature, Brand A ditches what they have just spent years devleoping to copy cat Brand B. The people who bought Brand A inital camera are crapped on because their camera they just spent thousands on in out of date with in months, Brands A's quick released camera is full of errors (design and due to QC), these customers that bought this are crapped on too.

the market is crapped on because there is less choice (eiter because A and B have the same camera in a differnet skin, or becasue Brand A dies).

If Brand A dies, brand B has less competition and stagnates its designs.

Its actually pretty simple and you have already done it....if the 5Dmii works for you....use it! If niko start losing sales becasue of HD video in a reasonable priced body, then they will do something about it. . Nikon know if they are selling enough cameras or not.

Stu

--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rabbitstu77/

ScottMac · Feb 6, 2011

mgblack74 said:
Is that ScottMac is on a mission to have this thread hit 150. Honestly, not one mention anywhere about image quality from a still camera. Just the nauseating rant of the lack of video from a still camera. You have a MF camera and a 5D II that meets your needs just let us lowly amateurs and non video pros wallow in our own lackluster technology. There. One more on your quest to 150.

Actually, IQ is the most important thing to me and that's why I shoot MF 90% of the time. The D3X would be fine expect it has no video and is $8,000 with ny tax. So I want Nikon to make an affordable FF high MP 1080 HD camera. What's so hard to understand? I'm telling you that dslr video has become as important as stills IQ to many pros and Nikon doesn't get it for some reason. So basically, you are not reading my posts or understanding my position, just like Nikon.

ScottMac · Feb 6, 2011

RustyKnee said:
I do care actually, but not being a pro I have more important things to worry about. (Not being sarcastic).

Maybe I should title my threads, "for pros only", we do live in a different world.

RustyKnee said:
Yes the D3S was released after the 5Dii, and your thread title is actually quite valid in that context. I don't think it was their direct answer....the D3S isn't nikons answer to the 5Dii, that is plainly obvious. But chronologically, and the video "hype" lust/need what ever, they added what they could in the time they had.

The thread is Does Nikon think it is, and therefore, don't expect a Nikon 5DM2 spec and price (even though so many people want it). Get it?

RustyKnee said:
I chose Nikon because of the features it offers over canon, canon have features I like too, but nikon has more I like.

Right, but it's a pain in the ass to use a non AF mount on the Canon so I can use my many Nikon lenses. This is a major complaint for me, Nikon does not have the camera I want, and I have invested heavily in their lenses.

RustyKnee said:
I want nikon and canon to make the best they can, but if the start banging cameras out in some sort of knee jerk reaction method then that will expensive, lead to fundamental mistakes and will be just plain sad.

Whoever said they wanted that to happen? Saying that a type of camera should be available now is not the same thing as saying "but if you can't do it, then just release some garbage."

RustyKnee said:
Its actually pretty simple and you have already done it....if the 5Dmii works for you....use it!

I do, but i wish I had Nikon's version, for Nikon lens use.

RustyKnee said:
If niko start losing sales becasue of HD video in a reasonable priced body, then they will do something about it. . Nikon know if they are selling enough cameras or not.

I don't think they understand the pro world anymore, I think they have become the prosumer brand. Sad.

topstuff · Feb 6, 2011

ScottMac said:
I don't think they understand the pro world anymore, I think they have become the prosumer brand. Sad.

That is complete, laughable, olympic level of BS !

If the OP is truely a Pro, he would never say that. He has been rumbled, found out. His own ridiculous BS has caught him out.

I am a partner in a marketing business. We hire Pro Photographers all of the time. Many of them use Nikon. Many of them use Canon. Many use MF, a couple are using Leica.

Remind me to tell the Nikon users that according to Scottmac they are using pro-sumer gear. The fact that some of the D3X files that come in are some of the best digital files I have ever seen is clearly irrelevant. The large sums of money we pay for these Nikon images is clearly mis-spent. Thank god Scotmac has pointed this out!

Fool.

Anyway, back to the issue of HD video. I OWN a 5D2. It is NOT the video god that the OP thinks it is. It would be a DISASTER if Nikon simply copied it.

Why do I say this? Because the 5D2 is a cross-roads kind of camera. It is not easy to use or optimised for video. It is popular because it found itself to be the ONLY full frame, 35mm DSLR around with 1080 P and easy to change lenses.

Pretty soon the 5D2 will be history. No doubt other cameras will have replaced it.

I am sure that professional video shooters will look at the 5D2 as a quaint musuem piece in a few years time. In its place will be a camera that is a 35mm DSLR format, with interchangeable lenses, 1080 HD video, but all in a much easier to use form factor.

The amount of bodged together, scrappy add-on gear that videographers have to add to the 5D2 is a joke. This is all because the 5D2 was never intended as a serious video tool. Its success in video was an unintended and unexpected consequence of the fact that it had no competition.

Future cameras designed with video in mind will , IMO, be quite different and easier to use. Even Scottmac may want one..

But if Nikon simply copied the 5D2 then pretty soon they will find their camera to be obsolete IMO. There are much better cameras than the 5D2 not that far away.

PS: Besides, ScottMacs argument ignore another important point, proving the guy is talking nonsense. Given that HD video on the 5D2 is an all-manual affair, there is absolutely no reason why he cannot simply put his Nikon lenses on a 5D2 body with an adaptor.

RustyKnee · Feb 6, 2011

ScottMac said:
RustyKnee said:

I do care actually, but not being a pro I have more important things to worry about. (Not being sarcastic).

Click to expand...

Maybe I should title my threads, "for pros only", we do live in a different world.

I am sure you do. I am an engineer and can see it from the other side!

ScottMac said:
ScottMac said:

Yes the D3S was released after the 5Dii, and your thread title is actually quite valid in that context. I don't think it was their direct answer....the D3S isn't nikons answer to the 5Dii, that is plainly obvious. But chronologically, and the video "hype" lust/need what ever, they added what they could in the time they had.

Click to expand...

The thread is Does Nikon think it is, and therefore, don't expect a Nikon 5DM2 spec and price (even though so many people want it). Get it?

I get it, and I don't think they do think it was the 5dii answer. My original statment about them releasing what was acheivable video wise for them at that time. I really don't see how you asking if D3S was the 5dii answer means they won't bring another better solution to you request out at all. Given the 5dmkiii will be out in similar time frame that is what Nikon are considering. I would be amazed if the next gen don't have 1080p, I hope they are High MP. If they don't have 1080p, then I think they don't care for video. That still doesn't mean the the D3S was their answer to the 5Dii.

ScottMac said:
ScottMac said:

I chose Nikon because of the features it offers over canon, canon have features I like too, but nikon has more I like.

Click to expand...

Right, but it's a pain in the ass to use a non AF mount on the Canon so I can use my many Nikon lenses. This is a major complaint for me, Nikon does not have the camera I want, and I have invested heavily in their lenses.

Are canon lenese that bad? lol

ScottMac said:
ScottMac said:

I want nikon and canon to make the best they can, but if the start banging cameras out in some sort of knee jerk reaction method then that will expensive, lead to fundamental mistakes and will be just plain sad.

Click to expand...

Whoever said they wanted that to happen? Saying that a type of camera should be available now is not the same thing as saying "but if you can't do it, then just release some garbage."

LOL you do seem to change your argument a lot. First it seems you want nikon 5dmk2 when the D3S came out, and now you just want it a bit before now. but can't wait a few monthes to see what happens, But then you do think Nikon revolves around your timescales

ScottMac said:
ScottMac said:

Its actually pretty simple and you have already done it....if the 5Dmii works for you....use it!

Click to expand...

I do, but i wish I had Nikon's version, for Nikon lens use.

ScottMac said:

If niko start losing sales becasue of HD video in a reasonable priced body, then they will do something about it. . Nikon know if they are selling enough cameras or not.

Click to expand...

I don't think they understand the pro world anymore, I think they have become the prosumer brand. Sad.

Is there such a thing as "The Pro world"? It seems quite varied in its requirements to me. Unless you mean you are "the pro world".

By the way, I do hope they make your camera.

off topic now, but if they made a high frame rate video (300fps+) mode at decent res, I'd be interested in video.

--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rabbitstu77/

RustyKnee · Feb 6, 2011

RustyKnee said:
ScottMac said:

The thread is Does Nikon think it is, and therefore, don't expect a Nikon 5DM2 spec and price (even though so many people want it). Get it?

Click to expand...

the more I think about that part of your response the more daft I think it is......If its what Nikon think/thought it is/was....why are you asking a forum?

RustyKnee said:
LOL you do seem to change your argument a lot. First it seems you want nikon 5dmk2 when the D3S came out, and now you just want it a bit before now. but can't wait a few monthes to see what happens, But then you do think Nikon revolves around your timescales

I reread your OP and I was too harsh with that part of my reply, I appologise.

RustyKnee said:
--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rabbitstu77/

--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rabbitstu77/

rayman 2 · Feb 6, 2011

topstuff said:
ScottMac said:

I don't think they understand the pro world anymore, I think they have become the prosumer brand. Sad.

Click to expand...

That is complete, laughable, olympic level of BS !

If the OP is truely a Pro, he would never say that. He has been rumbled, found out. His own ridiculous BS has caught him out.

I am a partner in a marketing business. We hire Pro Photographers all of the time. Many of them use Nikon. Many of them use Canon. Many use MF, a couple are using Leica.

Remind me to tell the Nikon users that according to Scottmac they are using pro-sumer gear. The fact that some of the D3X files that come in are some of the best digital files I have ever seen is clearly irrelevant. The large sums of money we pay for these Nikon images is clearly mis-spent. Thank god Scotmac has pointed this out!

Fool.

Anyway, back to the issue of HD video. I OWN a 5D2. It is NOT the video god that the OP thinks it is. It would be a DISASTER if Nikon simply copied it.

Why do I say this? Because the 5D2 is a cross-roads kind of camera. It is not easy to use or optimised for video. It is popular because it found itself to be the ONLY full frame, 35mm DSLR around with 1080 P and easy to change lenses.

Pretty soon the 5D2 will be history. No doubt other cameras will have replaced it.

I am sure that professional video shooters will look at the 5D2 as a quaint musuem piece in a few years time. In its place will be a camera that is a 35mm DSLR format, with interchangeable lenses, 1080 HD video, but all in a much easier to use form factor.

The amount of bodged together, scrappy add-on gear that videographers have to add to the 5D2 is a joke. This is all because the 5D2 was never intended as a serious video tool. Its success in video was an unintended and unexpected consequence of the fact that it had no competition.

Future cameras designed with video in mind will , IMO, be quite different and easier to use. Even Scottmac may want one..

But if Nikon simply copied the 5D2 then pretty soon they will find their camera to be obsolete IMO. There are much better cameras than the 5D2 not that far away.

PS: Besides, ScottMacs argument ignore another important point, proving the guy is talking nonsense. Given that HD video on the 5D2 is an all-manual affair, there is absolutely no reason why he cannot simply put his Nikon lenses on a 5D2 body with an adaptor.

Yes i also think that a few years from now we will see cameras that are much better and ergonomically much better for video and I also think that if you shoot Nikon glass you can uses 5Dmk 2 or 3...

But I do think that good video is possible with dslr´s and accessorizes arent a joke they are very capable of doing the job....see my thread on that topic...
Peter

ScottMac · Feb 6, 2011

topstuff said:
ScottMac said:

I don't think they understand the pro world anymore, I think they have become the prosumer brand. Sad.

Click to expand...

That is complete, laughable, olympic level of BS !

If the OP is truely a Pro, he would never say that. He has been rumbled, found out. His own ridiculous BS has caught him out.

You misunderstood the statement. Nikon's focus seems to have become prosumer in terms of their primary focus, it does not mean that their pro cameras are prosumer level, the D3X is a good high MP camera, and the D3s shoots good high iso. But no FF 1080 video and the release of the D7000 and no new FF last year or so far this year really looks like they bank on prosumer. Pro camera seem to be an afterthought lately. If this year goes by with still no FF 1080 high Mp you might end up agreeing with me, that is, that their primary focus on new cameras and new sales is prosumer D7000 type cameras.

topstuff said:
I am a partner in a marketing business. We hire Pro Photographers all of the time. Many of them use Nikon. Many of them use Canon. Many use MF, a couple are using Leica.

I shoot MF for a living and compete against other MF; 35mm does not come into it. In order for 35mm to come into it, it really needs to be FF, high MP and 1080 video. I have several new clients who want large file size stills and 1080 video at the same time in tight, low budget, low light, fast moving, high pressure situations where MF is too slow. I need the best 35mm high MP and 1080 in the world. Yes, I'm demanding of my gear; Nikon does not have what I want and need.

topstuff said:
Remind me to tell the Nikon users that according to Scottmac they are using pro-sumer gear.

I think they already know that Nikon has no high MP FF 1080 camera at all.

topstuff said:
Anyway, back to the issue of HD video. I OWN a 5D2. It is NOT the video god that the OP thinks it is. It would be a DISASTER if Nikon simply copied it.

I am not entirely happy with the 5DM2 and have said so many times so please stop trying to put words in my mouth. It is an amazing camera for the price and the 1080 video is far superior in IQ to any Nikon video and every pro knows that, sorry.

topstuff said:
Why do I say this? Because the 5D2 is a cross-roads kind of camera. It is not easy to use or optimised for video. It is popular because it found itself to be the ONLY full frame, 35mm DSLR around with 1080 P and easy to change lenses.

That's a monumental achievement especially considering the price.

topstuff said:
Pretty soon the 5D2 will be history. No doubt other cameras will have replaced it.

Now you are really jumping the gun, the 5DM2 dominates the market in dslr video and no one is even close and it's now been YEARS that it's the number one and only choice for 1080 dslr video. You're ready to put it to rest (soon) because of perceived obsolescence? Man, are you off base.

topstuff said:
I am sure that professional video shooters will look at the 5D2 as a quaint musuem piece in a few years time.

And I am sure you are wrong. If anything it will be the 5DM3 that will shock you.

topstuff said:
In its place will be a camera that is a 35mm DSLR format, with interchangeable lenses, 1080 HD video, but all in a much easier to use form factor.

The amount of bodged together, scrappy add-on gear that videographers have to add to the 5D2 is a joke.

To you maybe, but to us, it's fun and creative. God, you have a negative attitude.

topstuff said:
This is all because the 5D2 was never intended as a serious video tool. Its success in video was an unintended and unexpected consequence of the fact that it had no competition.

No, it's because creative visual artists know how to bend and twist gear towards art and commerce, and nothing else. Oh, and that Nikon has been ultra slow to market with any other FF 1080 option.

topstuff said:
Future cameras designed with video in mind will , IMO, be quite different and easier to use. Even Scottmac may want one..

I agree, but for now, it's Canon only. Nikon lags terribly behind and that's the point of all my posts.

topstuff said:
But if Nikon simply copied the 5D2 then pretty soon they will find their camera to be obsolete IMO.

No one ever said they should do that, in fact, I want Nikon because Nikon has better lenses and better build. Why do you all keep saying this, no one wants an inferior camera; nobody wants one 5 years from now either.

topstuff said:
There are much better cameras than the 5D2 not that far away.

Define "not too far away." ZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzz...

topstuff said:
PS: Besides, ScottMacs argument ignore another important point, proving the guy is talking nonsense. Given that HD video on the 5D2 is an all-manual affair, there is absolutely no reason why he cannot simply put his Nikon lenses on a 5D2 body with an adaptor.

I have been doing that, but sometimes would like AF, but no go in that configuration.

And lighten up with the personal attacks, will you please. Stick with the post idea, not your personal diatribes against the poster; you don't know me.

topstuff · Feb 6, 2011

I'm signing off before this discussion disappears into ever decreasing circles.

It's like groundhog day here.

To the OP: given that D3 range and D700 were conceived and developed BEFORE the HD video craze took hold, the basic premise of your original post Makes zero logical sense.

D3S is no " answer " to 5D2.

Right now your criteria for a camera leaves you with a choice of One.

Get over it. Wait for the next generation.

In the meantime, just enjoy your Canon. It is one of a kind.

Making absurd statements about Nikon makes you come across as one weird crazy fella. Just wait for goodness sake. What is so hard to understand about that?

Better still, given that being a Pro is all about having the right tools for the job - why not just get a Red and get on with life? But then you would'nt be able to come to DPR to whine about it...

SethG · Feb 6, 2011

It appears VERY likely that Nikon will be refreshing the entire higher end of their line this year. The D300 & D3 are more than three years old at this point. Knowing Nikon, they may release a D3 replacement (let's call it the D4) which may exceed the D3x in many (but not all) ways, while continuing to sell the D3x. They've done this kind of thing before.

According to Mr. Hogan, the supplies of some of the higher-end cameras are running out, which means an update...soon...
--

Seth -

bikinchris · Feb 6, 2011

It's a bet. If I lose, I will not post on the Nikon D3 board next year. If you lose you will leave this board for the remainer of this year from the time of delivery.
The bet:

Whether Nikon will deliver this year a high resolution (20Mp+) FX DSLR with 1080p video.

Although I expect that you will only have a few months off, becuse I expect two FX cameras this year and both probably later in the year.

ScottMac said:
bikinchris said:

You say the question was for a competitor for the 5D MKII and ask for almost the same camera. The answer has always been that Nikon does not and has never built a camera to be an exact competitor to Canon. But you always have ignored that. Where is Canon's competition for an FX camera that shoots 9fps and 14bit?

As for the bet, you put so many caveats on it, that it doesn't resemble a bet, but a marketing equation.

Take the bet as it was written or nothing. I didn't think you would even consider it. You would want a Bugatti Veyron but would only be willing to pay for the price of a smart car.

Click to expand...

You were too vague in your description for the bet.

How is this: no new FF Nikon with at least 20 MP and 1080 video in 2011?

If you don't take that bet then it is you that lacks confidence in Nikon and it proves you actually agree with me that they can't do it for still another year.

It doesn't interest me to debate whether or not it's a good thing that Nikon is sticking with 12 MP and 1080 video in FF, for me, I can't use their products because it's not pro spec enough, period, the file size is too small for high end advertising and tv producers won't accept 720 HD when they can easily have 1080 FF at only $2,300. And in addition, I'm not going to buy a D3X and it's because it has no video and is crazy out of control over priced for what it is.

Why would I bet on 16 or 18 MP, I have no interest in low MP when Canon has had 21 MP FF and 1080 video for YEARS!!!

--

-> > "Oh, and since we're on the subject of advice, you may want to be a little leery of some of the advice you see on this, or any other, message board. If someone is giving you advice ......make a determination about how much weight you'll give that advice. You may find that sometimes there are 'serial-posters' on the internet that should read more and type less."
-Brian Blanco, Sarasota Florida

I include myself in that quote
Chris, Broussard, LA

ScottMac · Feb 6, 2011

bikinchris said:
It's a bet. If I lose, I will not post on the Nikon D3 board next year. If you lose you will leave this board for the remainer of this year from the time of delivery.
The bet:

Whether Nikon will deliver this year a high resolution (20Mp+) FX DSLR with 1080p video.

Although I expect that you will only have a few months off, becuse I expect two FX cameras this year and both probably later in the year.

You're on.

Notice that the price factor is out of the equation, which is understandable because there is no way Nikon can make a new FX with 1080 HD and price it less than the D700, D3s and D3X. However, that also means, if it comes, it's going to be crazy expensive, maybe even more than the D3X. You see, this is the pickle they are in, if they replace the D3s with a D4 and no longer sell the D3s, then I suppose the D4 could be priced at $6,000, but, that's the end of the sales of the D3X at $7,500. So unless you also upgrade the D3X, or dump it, pricing the D4 at $6,000 makes no sense. But then, if you do upgrade the D3X at the same time, you have to upgrade it to over 24MP, because 20 MP in a new D4 will kill it.

Which leads me to believe they will upgrade the D3s to a D4 but with only 16 or 18 MP and give it 1080 video, that would preserve the D3X as their only true high MP camera. You would lose the bet if that happens. It's a really interesting problem for Nikon, one that Canon seems not to have.

ScottMac · Feb 6, 2011

topstuff said:
I'm signing off before this discussion disappears into ever decreasing circles.

It's like groundhog day here.

To the OP: given that D3 range and D700 were conceived and developed BEFORE the HD video craze took hold, the basic premise of your original post Makes zero logical sense.

D3S is no " answer " to 5D2.

Right now your criteria for a camera leaves you with a choice of One.

Get over it. Wait for the next generation.

In the meantime, just enjoy your Canon. It is one of a kind.

Making absurd statements about Nikon makes you come across as one weird crazy fella. Just wait for goodness sake. What is so hard to understand about that?

Better still, given that being a Pro is all about having the right tools for the job - why not just get a Red and get on with life? But then you would'nt be able to come to DPR to whine about it...

I'm not whining about anything, nor are my statements absurd, I'm trying to open your eyes and call a spade a spade. Try to make an intelligent, alternative post next time, instead of trying to attack my character, which you don't have a clue about.

bikinchris · Feb 6, 2011

ScottMac said:
bikinchris said:

It's a bet. If I lose, I will not post on the Nikon D3 board next year. If you lose you will leave this board for the remainer of this year from the time of delivery.
The bet:

Whether Nikon will deliver this year a high resolution (20Mp+) FX DSLR with 1080p video.

Although I expect that you will only have a few months off, becuse I expect two FX cameras this year and both probably later in the year.

Click to expand...

You're on.

Notice that the price factor is out of the equation, which is understandable because there is no way Nikon can make a new FX with 1080 HD and price it less than the D700, D3s and D3X.

Not unless they strip it down like Canon did. Maybe Nikon could revive the D100 or D70 to do that. Those cameras were the same price chassis as the one the 5D was (cobbled together) built on. Well, actually a little better built with better focusing.

ScottMac said:
However, that also means, if it comes, it's going to be crazy expensive, maybe even more than the D3X. You see, this is the pickle they are in, if they replace the D3s with a D4 and no longer sell the D3s, then I suppose the D4 could be priced at $6,000,

You have heard of inflation? The new Canon long lenses are coming out more expensive than the Nikon lenses that take 4 times as long to make.

ScottMac said:
but, that's the end of the sales of the D3X at $7,500.

You forget the D3XS is also due.

ScottMac said:
So unless you also upgrade the D3X, or dump it, pricing the D4 at $6,000 makes no sense. But then, if you do upgrade the D3X at the same time, you have to upgrade it to over 24MP, because 20 MP in a new D4 will kill it.

Which leads me to believe they will upgrade the D3s to a D4 but with only 16 or 18 MP and give it 1080 video, that would preserve the D3X as their only true high MP camera. You would lose the bet if that happens.

Not if the make a D3XS. In which case, you lose. But I guess I am due for a break.

ScottMac said:
It's a really interesting problem for Nikon, one that Canon seems not to have.

They have other problems. They have a number of shooters who want a camera like the D700. They also have a number of shooters who want a n Fx sports camera. In fact, the D3 made lots of shooters to switch back to Nikon and the D3S is making pros who never shot Canon switch. But in your world, that doesn't matter. Only high pixel count and video. Not that I suggest switching systems for anyone.

--

-> > "Oh, and since we're on the subject of advice, you may want to be a little leery of some of the advice you see on this, or any other, message board. If someone is giving you advice ......make a determination about how much weight you'll give that advice. You may find that sometimes there are 'serial-posters' on the internet that should read more and type less."
-Brian Blanco, Sarasota Florida

I include myself in that quote
Chris, Broussard, LA

cajuncc · Feb 6, 2011

ScottMac said:
Actually, IQ is the most important thing to me and that's why I shoot MF 90% of the time. The D3X would be fine expect it has no video and is $8,000 with ny tax. So I want Nikon to make an affordable FF high MP 1080 HD camera. What's so hard to understand? I'm telling you that dslr video has become as important as stills IQ to many pros and Nikon doesn't get it for some reason. So basically, you are not reading my posts or understanding my position, just like Nikon.

Okay, so you have your medium format cameras for still images. You use a 5D MkII for video. I don't see the big complication here. Sounds like you have the tools you need to do your job.

And while we're here, where's Canon's answer to the D700? Or the D3s? Or the D3x? We can play this game back and forth until the end of time and get nowhere. Companies like this don't "answer" to their competition's products. They make the products that they feel are right for their business. If you don't like it, you're welcome to start your own camera company and make exactly what you want.

Diderot2 · Feb 7, 2011

Scott,

I don't disagree with you. In fact, I probably would have added something similar to your comments but I was trying to keep my post brief. People (including clients) do respond to you differently depending on the camera you have. And if you are shooting for stock photo images, equipment requirements are very high. Etc. Etc. Etc.

People on these boards often forget that there are many different kinds of professional photographers and they have different needs for equipment. I am a professional photographer but not a wedding or stock photographer. I am a magazine editor and those considerations I mentioned above are not very important to me (just slightly so, mainly because of my ego).

Diderot

Chromobotia Macracanthus · Feb 7, 2011

ScottMac said:
Sal Baker said:

mtlr said:

Please, please read today's Thom Hogan comment on trying to use any DSLR for professional video, aptly titled 'The Fatal Lure'.

Probably ScottMac will hate Thom's ideas, but common sense is not always welcome? Fatal lure indeed.

Click to expand...

He doesn't offer any ideas at all, other than his hatred of video in DSLRs. He starts out saying camera companies are spending "most of their efforts" on putting video in still cameras. Huh? 1080p (2 mp per frame) HD technology is ancient. It's been in Canon's cheapest entry level FF camera for THREE years. Where are his facts or research on this? So much for approaching the subject in an unbiased way.

He then sets up a straw-man argument trying to establish that users expect DSLR video cameras to take the place of full dedicated video camera rigs. Whose saying that? FF DSLR video can produce certain types of cinematic video that smaller sensor video cameras cannot. But dedicated video cameras are easier to use and are set up from the beginning for shooting video. Both cameras can do things the other can't. DSLR video is just another video tool to be used along with other video gear.

Just because Thom can't shoot video with a DSLR means nothing to the pros who use it everyday when it's appropriate for the job. We just finished a gorgeous image spot for a TV network shot with a 5D II that was originally slated to be shot on 35mm film. Yes, we/I have fast lenses (a huge barrier to Thom), and pros know how to focus manually because thats the way it's done with high-end video gear.

There is very little common sense in that article, only spin and rants.

Sal

Click to expand...

I agree with you completely, but in Thom's defense, he may be talking about consumer or prosumer use too. However, it is definitely true that this forum is not for pro dslr 1080 video shooters, and not so much because it has few pro posters who shoot dslr video, but rather, because Nikon HAS NO FF 1080 HD CAMERAS FOR SALE AT ANY PRICE SO NOBODY HERE EVEN HAS ONE UNLESS IT'S A CANON!!! Double HA HA!

Who cares? Most professional photographers don't want video anyway. Do you think Jeff ascough (who owns a 5DM11) gives a damn that is has 1080 video? He's a photographer not a videographer. Cliff Mautner? He owns several D3 incarnates. Do you think he cares about video on his cameras? Photography (IMO) is more powerful than video, that's why you only need a good photographer at your wedding.

This of course is just my opinion; you are entilted to drone on about your 1080p nonsense.

mrcontinental · Feb 7, 2011

What a ridiculous statement. If you don't like their offerings go buy a Canon and be happy.

Nikon is setting the new standard in sensor technology and lens sharpness. Just because your only interest is MP quantity and not quality doesn't mean that a lot of us don't know better.

I'll put my D3s and pro glass up against any competitors offering because it is hands down the most versatile 35mm available today. It is brilliant and if you need cutting edge video then you need a dedicated camcorder.

Newguy703 said:
you dont need more MP but unless the d700 replacement or D3 replacement has more than 20mp Nikon will look like fools

What if the D3s is Nikon's answer to the 5DM2?

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