Just got my 717 (ser. 134* ) and so far the HAF works fine except in apeture priority shooting indoor flash pictures...the cam sellects a shutter speed too slow even at full wide apeture resulting in blurry pics...but if using shutter priority or program for indoor flash shots theres no problem...my S70 doesn't have such a problem using apeture Pri during indoor flash shooting...is this just a limitation of the 717 or do i have something set wrong?
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717 flash & apeture priority
- Thread starter foxtrot
- Start date
johnrweb
Veteran Member
The F707 seems to have the exact same problem. It seems that the camera doesn't calculate for the existence of the flash at all. Frustrating isn't it? Hopefully someone has a workaround for this.
John
http://www.pbase.com/johnrweb/
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John
http://www.pbase.com/johnrweb/
Hal Fisher
Veteran Member
This is normal but has never made sense to me either. If the flash has already engaged for the shot why would they set the shutter to 1/30 and only a 2.0 aperture? I wish they had a least one custom setting just so I could preset it for a normal flash shot (shutter of 160 and an aperture of 4.0).
Hal
Hal
ZipperZ
Veteran Member
The camera is metering ambient light. Thats why the really slow shutter. And if you decide you want a smaller aperture for better DOF you'll find the shutter gets even slower.
Ive mentioned this before in another thread that i wish the cam had a user selectable flash sync speed in AP mode like 1/90th or 1/125th but it doesnt so your only solution now is to use Shutter Priority, set it at a mid speed 1/60th - 125th and settle for whatever aperture the cam selects or go full manual. If you dont have an flash meter then trial and error is your mode when shooting flash manually
Posting these days requires either dedication or medication...
cheers
Zip
Ive mentioned this before in another thread that i wish the cam had a user selectable flash sync speed in AP mode like 1/90th or 1/125th but it doesnt so your only solution now is to use Shutter Priority, set it at a mid speed 1/60th - 125th and settle for whatever aperture the cam selects or go full manual. If you dont have an flash meter then trial and error is your mode when shooting flash manually
--
Posting these days requires either dedication or medication...
cheers
Zip
You're right about trial and error. I find that when I go full manual, the TTL flash metering no longer boosts the built-in flash's output to compensate for the smaller aperture/ higher shutter speed combo I select. The further away from 2.4 and 1/80th I get, the darker the image. Frustrating!
steve
steve
If the camera is metering the ambient light, couldn't you set the camera to spot metering?
carrie
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carrie
Rick Ashford
Veteran Member
It is important to understand how an auto flash works: it controls the light solely by making use of the f/stop. The shutter speed setting is not all that important because it is the flash that provides the light for exposing the shot, and it is instantaneous. So, the amount of light that reaches the sensor is controlled almost solely by the aperture. And the aperture that is required for proper exposure is controlled by the strength of the flash and the distance to the subject being photographed. You can't just pick an arbitrary aperture. If the aperture is too small for the distance to the subject, no amount of shutter speed adjustment will fix the exposure. That is why you always have to use shutter priority mode when using the flash. This allows the camera to choose the appropriate aperture to properly expose the picture when it performs its TTL pre-flash metering. (Of course, full Auto or manual mode will work, too.)
This is why 3rd party flash attachments must be used in manual mode. They usually always have a proprietary shutter speed (1/125 is pretty standard), and you manually set the aperture based on the distance to the subject being photographed, usually by means of a chart located on the back of the flash unit.
Rick A.
Johnson City, TN
This is why 3rd party flash attachments must be used in manual mode. They usually always have a proprietary shutter speed (1/125 is pretty standard), and you manually set the aperture based on the distance to the subject being photographed, usually by means of a chart located on the back of the flash unit.
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Rick A.
Johnson City, TN
Thanks for the help in this regard...On the good side its not something wrong with my 717...the bad side is i don't get to use my own appeture but Ricks explination makes sense when i think about it...
This is why 3rd party flash attachments must be used in manual
mode. They usually always have a proprietary shutter speed (1/125
is pretty standard), and you manually set the aperture based on the
distance to the subject being photographed, usually by means of a
chart located on the back of the flash unit.
--
Rick A.
Johnson City, TN
I simply want to be able to fix shutter at 1/80th and select a smaller aperture for increased depth of field in certain situations when using the 717's built-in-flash. Unless I'm doing something wrong, this doesn't appear to be possible with the 717. When in manual mode, the flash output appears constant, no matter what the aperture. Therefore, the smaller the aperture I select, the darker the resulting image.
I'm surprised that Sony is not (optionally) varying the power output of the flash based on the aperture selected when in manual mode. This should be possible with the feedback provided by TTL metering. The built-in flash has more than enough power for me in most situations and I'd prefer not to carry around an external flash unless I really need one.
steve
I'm surprised that Sony is not (optionally) varying the power output of the flash based on the aperture selected when in manual mode. This should be possible with the feedback provided by TTL metering. The built-in flash has more than enough power for me in most situations and I'd prefer not to carry around an external flash unless I really need one.
steve
This is why 3rd party flash attachments must be used in manual
mode. They usually always have a proprietary shutter speed (1/125
is pretty standard), and you manually set the aperture based on the
distance to the subject being photographed, usually by means of a
chart located on the back of the flash unit.
--
Rick A.
Johnson City, TN
When I first tested the flash in full manual mode, I chose a subject about 10 feet away. The scene I was photographing maxed out the flash at F4, therefore the exposures at 5.6 and 8 were bound to be underexposed.
Happily, when I try the same test with a subject about 5-6 feet away, I'm seeing consistent exposures at 2, 4, 5.6 and 8, all at 1/80th of a second, indicating that the camera is, in fact, varying flash output based on TTL feedback as I had hoped.
steve
Happily, when I try the same test with a subject about 5-6 feet away, I'm seeing consistent exposures at 2, 4, 5.6 and 8, all at 1/80th of a second, indicating that the camera is, in fact, varying flash output based on TTL feedback as I had hoped.
steve
[/I]I'm surprised that Sony is not (optionally) varying the power
output of the flash based on the aperture selected when in manual
mode. This should be possible with the feedback provided by TTL
metering. The built-in flash has more than enough power for me in
most situations and I'd prefer not to carry around an external
flash unless I really need one.
steve
This is why 3rd party flash attachments must be used in manual
mode. They usually always have a proprietary shutter speed (1/125
is pretty standard), and you manually set the aperture based on the
distance to the subject being photographed, usually by means of a
chart located on the back of the flash unit.
--
Rick A.
Johnson City, TN
Where do you see 1/80th sec shutter speed? I'm also getting good results in M mode but i don't see any indicators of shutter speed...i usually try to use f4.0 or 5.6 for flash to give me more dof and my 717 does this well at close ranges...obviously its setting a suitable shutter speed but i don't see what the speed is...
[/I][/I]Happily, when I try the same test with a subject about 5-6 feet
away, I'm seeing consistent exposures at 2, 4, 5.6 and 8, all at
1/80th of a second, indicating that the camera is, in fact, varying
flash output based on TTL feedback as I had hoped.
steve
I'm surprised that Sony is not (optionally) varying the power
output of the flash based on the aperture selected when in manual
mode. This should be possible with the feedback provided by TTL
metering. The built-in flash has more than enough power for me in
most situations and I'd prefer not to carry around an external
flash unless I really need one.
steve
This is why 3rd party flash attachments must be used in manual
mode. They usually always have a proprietary shutter speed (1/125
is pretty standard), and you manually set the aperture based on the
distance to the subject being photographed, usually by means of a
chart located on the back of the flash unit.
--
Rick A.
Johnson City, TN
When I'm in "M" mode, the shutter speed is located at about 3 O'clock on the LCD, right below the aperture.
steve
steve
[/I][/I]Happily, when I try the same test with a subject about 5-6 feet
away, I'm seeing consistent exposures at 2, 4, 5.6 and 8, all at
1/80th of a second, indicating that the camera is, in fact, varying
flash output based on TTL feedback as I had hoped.
steve
I'm surprised that Sony is not (optionally) varying the power
output of the flash based on the aperture selected when in manual
mode. This should be possible with the feedback provided by TTL
metering. The built-in flash has more than enough power for me in
most situations and I'd prefer not to carry around an external
flash unless I really need one.
steve
This is why 3rd party flash attachments must be used in manual
mode. They usually always have a proprietary shutter speed (1/125
is pretty standard), and you manually set the aperture based on the
distance to the subject being photographed, usually by means of a
chart located on the back of the flash unit.
--
Rick A.
Johnson City, TN
I don't see manual mode as being necessary with my 3rd party flash. I use the Promaster 5750 and it will function just fine for close ups or distance shots regardless of the focal length when in auto mode?
dianec
Leading Member
Rich_S
Well-known member
But Tim, in auto camera mode, indoors, the camera invariably will go to full open aperture: F2-2.4. This is why the F1000 seems to work since it assumes the camera is at F2-2.4. (it overexposes now though since the F717s sensitivity has increased a bit.) While manual camera mode isn't necessary with your Promaster I wonder if it will work correctly (i.e. like the internal flash) with it. I like to use manual camera mode to control the ratio of ambient light to flash light with the shutter speed and the depth of field with the aperture. Can you do a little Promaster experiment for me and take a series of shots in manual camera mode with the shutter set at 1/200 and then vary the aperture at F2, 2.8, 4, 5.6 and 8. With the F1000 the images will get increasingly darker because the flash is still assuming the camera is at F2. If your Promaster really gets and uses aperture info from the camera it should give correct exposure at various F stops. I would love to know this since would give the Promaster an advantage over a much cheaper generic auto flash (like the Sunpak 383).
Rich
LOL, i thought that was the ISO setting...i had the shutter speed set at 100 which is what i have the ISO set at so i got mixed up...still got lots to learn about this magnificent machine...the HAF works great in all lighting conditions and overall this is a killer camera...Low light focus speed is a little slow but not bad...high light focus speed is very quick making getting some good action shots possible...What a refreshing change from my now retired S70...
[/I][/I][/I]steve
Happily, when I try the same test with a subject about 5-6 feet
away, I'm seeing consistent exposures at 2, 4, 5.6 and 8, all at
1/80th of a second, indicating that the camera is, in fact, varying
flash output based on TTL feedback as I had hoped.
steve
I'm surprised that Sony is not (optionally) varying the power
output of the flash based on the aperture selected when in manual
mode. This should be possible with the feedback provided by TTL
metering. The built-in flash has more than enough power for me in
most situations and I'd prefer not to carry around an external
flash unless I really need one.
steve
This is why 3rd party flash attachments must be used in manual
mode. They usually always have a proprietary shutter speed (1/125
is pretty standard), and you manually set the aperture based on the
distance to the subject being photographed, usually by means of a
chart located on the back of the flash unit.
--
Rick A.
Johnson City, TN
The 5750 works perfectly in auto mode. I conducted the test below and I could here and see the flash increase it's output to match the higher f-stops and compensate for the lower light.
Every image was identical (post them later...I'm tired now). They all matched the camera in auto mode. However, at f8 the image was noticably darker as that's really pushing the ability to match the output of the flash.
I have the HVL 1000 too and it's junk in comparison. I did the same test and as you noticed, the flash darkens with every increase in f-stop.
Seems the Sony flash isn't recieving all the data that the Promaster is.
tim
Every image was identical (post them later...I'm tired now). They all matched the camera in auto mode. However, at f8 the image was noticably darker as that's really pushing the ability to match the output of the flash.
I have the HVL 1000 too and it's junk in comparison. I did the same test and as you noticed, the flash darkens with every increase in f-stop.
Seems the Sony flash isn't recieving all the data that the Promaster is.
tim
Here are some real quick and dirty shots I did the night I picked up the 5750.
http://www.pbase.com/pdqgp/promaster_5750
http://www.pbase.com/pdqgp/promaster_5750
Mike Fitzgerald
Veteran Member
Well this is what most of us have been assuming that the F1000 does -- getting an exposure value from the 7x7 based on current ISO and aperture settings. Maybe this does get bypassed in full auto; but if it's not working this way for a given aperture in the other exposure modes, then the camera-to-F1000 interface is a lot dumber than we've assumed :-(
A speed/convenience advantage, yes. But the Sunpak should work very well on a 717 provided you take care to match the aperture settings on both camera and flash. At least you don't have to think so constantly about subject distance variations.
I'd be interested in the test results too.
Mike
well, the sony tech during my conversations with him regarding the HAF issue did pretty much say the sony HVL 1000 was a simple dumb and useless flash. all but those words really.
it does appear the camera communicates the information and that the 5750 does a good job of reacting to the data.
Again, all the images looked the same and I could here and see the flash adjusting. All but f8 that is. Must just be too small of an opening f-stop wise.
it does appear the camera communicates the information and that the 5750 does a good job of reacting to the data.
Again, all the images looked the same and I could here and see the flash adjusting. All but f8 that is. Must just be too small of an opening f-stop wise.
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