Why do people defend their equipment?

I know that people want to be right and all, and I used to post here (dpreview) regularly, but have been away. Anyway flurry of posts because I decided to get a used GF1, and I still find it shocking how people will irrationally ignore the facts support a brand/camera/lens just because they own it. Moreover they seem to take it very personally if you don't like it.

I find that very strange. Why care what some random person thinks. Why insist what you have is somehow the best.

Is it just insecurity, human nature?
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http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbryce/

I have yet to figure out how having a couple of dials is faster than two pushes of a couple of buttons that are next to each other. Usually, when you have to control a dial, you need to push a button anyway to change the function of the dial.

Maybe it's a defense of the GF1 or E-P1/E-P2, or maybe it's just a matter of wanting that classic rangefinder look. The latter I can understand.

Yes, and yes!

Everything someone invests in is a personal decision for them, so they want to be right. (Everyone's at least a little insecure.) Later on, one they use their camera and make memories and experience life with that camera, i think to some people it's like a pet, or a favorite shirt, or anything really...an attachment forms. Right there, its already a double whammy of emotional investment! Evaluating your gear later on in a purely objective manner is almost impossible. Am i trying to defend my choice? do I like it more or less because I feel like I should?

Honestly, I first got into olympus because of an employee discount- couldn't have had a much colder, less emotional reason than that. However, I always felt a little bit of "sensor envy"....those fancy Canons with their huge sensors, extensive lens catalogs and hordes of pro shooters...but then I found myself appreciating Oly for what made it different- it's beautiful OOC colors, leading the curve in innovation (dustbuster, live view, etc.), and so on. And myself being from a city down on it's luck, I identified with Oly as an underdog. Sounds crazy, but I did, even if it wasn't a conscious decision! After years of vacations, holidays, walks in the park...generally great times....I became attached.

So it's probably not an objective decision at all, but now Oly is my favorite "old shirt", and I've become attached. We may try our best to be objective and let our brains control our choices, but it's in our nature not to be. We WILL be emotional sometimes, especially when we don't even see it coming. Those level-headed ideals slip out the window in the middle of the night, when your guard is down...maybe you were off taking some photos of your neighborhood in the moonlight. You left the door unlocked, let your guard down, and BAM- your objectivity's been pilfered!

Hope you got a bit of a laugh out of this in the same way I did thinking about it, but there's definitely a fair bit of truth to it all as well!

drwho9437 said:

I know that people want to be right and all, and I used to post here (dpreview) regularly, but have been away. Anyway flurry of posts because I decided to get a used GF1, and I still find it shocking how people will irrationally ignore the facts support a brand/camera/lens just because they own it. Moreover they seem to take it very personally if you don't like it.

I find that very strange. Why care what some random person thinks. Why insist what you have is somehow the best.

Is it just insecurity, human nature?

Click to expand...

Both

drwho9437 said:

--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbryce/

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--



Time, that aged nurse,
rocked me to patience.

I guess we figure that if we can put the time and effort to get the results we wanted from a camera why can't everyone else?

rkhndjr said:

drwho9437 said:

I know that people want to be right and all, and I used to post here (dpreview) regularly, but have been away. Anyway flurry of posts because I decided to get a used GF1, and I still find it shocking how people will irrationally ignore the facts support a brand/camera/lens just because they own it. Moreover they seem to take it very personally if you don't like it.

I find that very strange. Why care what some random person thinks. Why insist what you have is somehow the best.

Is it just insecurity, human nature?

Click to expand...

Both

rkhndjr said:

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I was wondering this myself. I got an E-PL1 because it had the right feature set/price/IQ (IMO) for me. I considered both Panasonic and Oly, and looked at the NEX cameras too. I am happy with my choice. In future, if Panny or Oly came out with bodies with a better sensor that met my handling needs, I would consider buying one, and which company it came from would really not matter to me. (For that matter, if more companies began producing M43 gear, I would look at their products too....It's a SYSTEM for pete's sake, not a brand war!!!)

I wish the moderators would do something about the rampant trolling and flaming that are going on. It makes the forum much less useful for those actually trying to find information or share tips with others....

-Janet

Oh the reason I got a GF1 was just to save money mostly and I wanted the 20 mm not the 14 mm for DOF. If you are wondering why I choose the GF1 used over a GF2 new. I do like dials a bit more but I don't see anything wrong with a touch screen it will probably last longer...
--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbryce/

It's just a camera. They all have their faults. No one camera is suitable for everyone. They should get over it.

I can understand the emotional attachment slightly, but honestly digi-cameras don't feel like they have souls like pets, old analog cameras did, I mean I went out and got an Pentax MX just for the feel of focusing (tackle).

Briefly the major cameras I have owned any why:
Canon AE-1 --> abandoned FD lenses thus cheapest for learning
Canon A-1 --> My AE-1 was sqeeking and I had lenses
Canon 300D --> It was the first one I could afford (
Pentax K10D --> brief wanted to try in body IS and limited lenses
Panasonic LX3 --> Wanted something small but good for trips
Pentax MX --> wanted to use MF lenses again with a HUGE finder

Panasonic GF1 --> Disappointed with LX3 RAW headroom and need something that I can focus during video

I don't feel brand loyalty beyond being stuck with lot of Canon glass. Canon captured me when they made the 300D and were first to market.

My equipment generally exceeds my talent at this point.
--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbryce/

I think the moderation level is okay. I wasn't trolling but some people clearly took my "read" of the 14mm panasonic lens comments in DCresource review personally. Like it was their kid or something, it seems rather an emotional reaction to me.
--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbryce/

drwho9437 said:

I think the moderation level is okay. I wasn't trolling but some people clearly took my "read" of the 14mm panasonic lens comments in DCresource review personally. Like it was their kid or something, it seems rather an emotional reaction to me.
--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbryce/

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Oh my, I was not saying you were trolling. It's just that in the past few days, a couple of threads I have been reading have totally disintegrated into outright name-calling. The OP will have a question about camera operation and the trolls will pop on in and start telling them they were idiots for getting whatever brand it was they got......

At least two threads have had people accusing others of stalking their posts.....

This just boggles me. I guess it's more fun to act like a spoiled child than to allow that others are entitled to their opinions, even if one disagrees with them? No wonder the world is in trouble...........

-Janet

MNE said:

I have yet to figure out how having a couple of dials is faster than two pushes of a couple of buttons that are next to each other. Usually, when you have to control a dial, you need to push a button anyway to change the function of the dial.

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Some people just don't like it. I didn't. I wasn't predetermined not to - I BOUGHT the epl1 and liked almost everything about it. But I, for whatever reasons, found the buttons to be a non-intuitive PIA. WIth any of the other m43 cameras (and almost any other for that matter), when you're in Aperture priority mode, you turn a wheel or dial to move to a larger or smaller aperture, which I do without a single pause or thought or movement of my eye. With the epl1, you first push one button to arm the other two buttons and then use a left and right button to move between them. Which requires a very conscious act and it sometimes takes a couple extra seconds. I'm really happy for those who don't mind it or even like it - for me it was a deal breaker. That may be my limitation rather than the camera's, but it was very real regardless. I don't judge you or anyone else for liking it - hell, more power to you - I wish I had too. But you should be equally able to understand that not everyone would...

-Ray

drwho9437 said:

Is it just insecurity, human nature?

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Yeah, or justification, rationalization, call it whatever you want. I don't seem to suffer from it that much. I have an ep2 and a gf1 and love 'em both. I had an epl1 and liked it except for the buttons, which I wasn't pre-determined not to like and don't judge anyone else for liking, but I didn't like 'em. Found 'em a personal PIA, which probably says more about me than the camera.

I also have a Nex and like it a TON, despite its limitations. They all have strengths and weaknesses and all represent a package of tradeoffs. Anyone who likes what they have I'm happy for. Anyone who doesn't, I hope they find what they like. But they're all tools and we each find and use the tools we're most comfortable with. Whether anyone else prefers the same tool shouldn't matter.

The only thing that ultimately matters is the photos and whatever gets the most out of the way between your heart and mind and what shows up on the screen or paper is the right camera for you...

-Ray

MNE said:

I have yet to figure out how having a couple of dials is faster than two pushes of a couple of buttons that are next to each other. Usually, when you have to control a dial, you need to push a button anyway to change the function of the dial.

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Try an old manual camera someday with dedicated aperture ring and shutter speed dials (which control that and nothing else), and you'll see the point real quick.

The key thing is that today's interfaces (including the single-dial must-press-buttons-along design) are modal incompatible with muscle memory . A modal user interface is one where the same user action performs different interface changes in different contexts: e.g., turning the dial sometimes changes shutter speed, sometimes aperture, sometimes exposure compensation.

This leads to mode errors , which is when the user makes a wrong assumption about the camera's current mode, and thus performs an action that changes something different than what they intended:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mode_ (computer_interface)#Mode_errors

Which means that for "correct" operation of the interface, the user must always know the current mode of the camera, either by always remembering it correctly (which is an added mental load and distraction), or by checking the interface's mode indicator (which slows the user down).

Elimination of modes makes it possible for people to learn to use the camera by muscle memory; if a particular movement of your hand always changes the aperture, then you will never mistakenly apply exposure compensation when you mean to stop down the lens, and you will never have to pause to check whether you are currently able to change the aperture.

My thought exactly: why do people attack other people's choice of gear?

See a lot of that going on...

LincolnB said:

It's just a camera. They all have their faults. No one camera is suitable for everyone. They should get over it.

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--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bilgy_no1

drwho9437 said:

Is it just insecurity, human nature?

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Very often it is so, but when it comes to system cameras, there are some good reasons in many cases. Camera systems are subject to network effects just as heavy as computers; the more popular your camera system is, the bigger the market for accessories or services for your camera (e.g., lens rental). If pervasive criticism of your camera system leads to less adoption, you've been indirectly hurt by the criticism.

In particular, in the case of the Four Thirds and Micro Four Thirds systems, there's a lot of criticism of the sensor size, image quality, and depth of field characteristics. The criticism may have actual facts at its heart, but it is routinely overblown and dismissive of the advantages of the system.

Mind you, there's also such a thing as recommending your camera to people without caring whether it's the best for them, which is the evil version of the defense I describe here.

Seems like people are talking about cameras and not your question. Why do we defend our cameras? Most people like to think they made the right decision. The cameras are expensive so people need to justify the cost. Some folks associate their identity with their possessions. Those are a few of the reasons that come to mind. There is a gradient of needing to be right from "I know all the answers and am always right" to "I haven't got a clue." Most of us are somewhere in between. The degree of openness and of humility are also on continua.
--
Ann Chaikin
Painting & Photography:
http://www.annchaikin.com
http://www.flickr.com/photos/annchaikin/
Photo a Day
http://www.blipfoto.com/ArtistAnnie
Family Websites:
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Ray Sachs said:

MNE said:

I have yet to figure out how having a couple of dials is faster than two pushes of a couple of buttons that are next to each other. Usually, when you have to control a dial, you need to push a button anyway to change the function of the dial.

Click to expand...

Some people just don't like it. I didn't. I wasn't predetermined not to - I BOUGHT the epl1 and liked almost everything about it. But I, for whatever reasons, found the buttons to be a non-intuitive PIA. WIth any of the other m43 cameras (and almost any other for that matter), when you're in Aperture priority mode, you turn a wheel or dial to move to a larger or smaller aperture, which I do without a single pause or thought or movement of my eye. With the epl1, you first push one button to arm the other two buttons and then use a left and right button to move between them. Which requires a very conscious act and it sometimes takes a couple extra seconds. I'm really happy for those who don't mind it or even like it - for me it was a deal breaker. That may be my limitation rather than the camera's, but it was very real regardless. I don't judge you or anyone else for liking it - hell, more power to you - I wish I had too. But you should be equally able to understand that not everyone would...

-Ray

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I bought an E-PL1 this summer and totally hated the button interface...but I also did not take any time to read the owner's manual and find the super control panel, or do any of the things I should have done, and it went back.

Fast forward 6 months...the E-PL2 is introduced, I am all excited about it since they put a mode dial on it (and an upper shutter speed of 4000)....but then I started looking at image comparisons in all of the reviews, and I realized that on every single review site I could find, I preferred the look of the E-PL1 images. (For that matter, the E-PL1 images I took when I had the original camera were really quite nice looking). That, combined with a heck of a deal on the E-PL1 at Staples, led me to try it again.

Is the button interface still fiddly? Yes it is. Can I live with it? Yes, I can. It turned out to not be a deal breaker for me after all. HOWEVER, I can surely see how it could be, since I hated it deeply the first time I used the camera.

As to the ISO change....well, they went from ISO 100-3200 in the EPL1 to 200-6400 in the EPL2. Unfortunately, in practice this negates the advantage of increasing the top shutter speed from 1/2000 to 1/4000, since at the same aperture value, a setting of ISO 100 and 1/2000s is approximately equivalent to ISO 200 and 1/4000s....So, in high light situations, I gain no practical advantage with the EPL2 over the EPL1 (if they had kept the ISO 100 speed it would have been a plus in the EPL2 column for me).

So, the point of this is I can see how the buttons would make you nuts, and yeah, I would like a dial better, but it was not a deal breaker for me. HOWEVER....if Oly came out with a M43 the same size as the EPL1 or 2 with a more sophisticated sensor AND dial adjustable aperture/shutter speed. AND an improved menu interface, AND ISO 100 with top speed of 1/4000s, I would be all over that thing in a minute (assuming they kept the great IQ that the E-PL1 has...because, to be honest, IQ is what this is all about...)

-Janet

jalywol said:

I bought an E-PL1 this summer and totally hated the button interface...but I also did not take any time to read the owner's manual and find the super control panel, or do any of the things I should have done, and it went back.

Is the button interface still fiddly? Yes it is. Can I live with it? Yes, I can. It turned out to not be a deal breaker for me after all. HOWEVER, I can surely see how it could be, since I hated it deeply the first time I used the camera.

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I actually didn't mind it at all at first. I hadn't been seriously into photography in about 30 years, when I was using fully manual film SLRs. Then a few point and shoot's over the years and this was my first experience with a "better" digital camera. And I was OK with it - never occurred to me not to like it...

UNTIL...

I bought a Canon S90 to have a truly pocketable camera. And it had a ring on the front (around the lens) and one on the back (similar to the epl2) and only THEN did I realize how much more I liked that type of interface, how absolutely more intuitive I found it and how I was much more apt to actually change settings on the fly when I could do it so easily. Then I tried an ep2 in a shop and it was all over. I bought the ep2, took both the ep2 and epl1 to Europe for a month, used the ep2 as the primary camera and just kept the 9-18 on the epl1 pretty much full time (because I don't change settings much with that lens anyway). And loved the ep2 so much that I sold the epl1 when I got back.

For me, all of these camera's have such awesome image quality that I'm not really concerned with the relatively small differences. I tend to shoot a lot of B&W anyway and if there's no grain in the shot, I'll usually add some in PP, so I'm just not that hung up on the best IQ. As long as its good enough, and they all are. For me.

-Ray

People defend what they personally picked (i.e., their judgement), and oppose what they are not comfortable with (maybe some defensiveness??).

I've been using digital cameras since 1997. Along the way, about 2002, we got a Nikon Coolpix 5700 that took fabulous pictures (great lens) but the interface drove me cuckoo. It was a conglomeration of buttons, wheels, and nested menus galore. When my friend, who picked it out and supposedly had studied the manual, tried to use it to take pictures of me on my horse, he tried to do some custom setting and totally fouled up the white balance, and those irreplaceable pictures came out a really weird color shift and overexposed. I used it on a trip through Rocky Mtn. Nat'l Park, and wound up just putting it on P mode and firing away, and while I got usable shots, I was still annoyed that the interface made it so hard to use the settings. So, in my experience, wheels are no great joy to use and do not simplify the process of photography.

Fast forward to 2010, a few digital cameras later, I got the E-PL1 and spent a lot of time with the manual and practicing the settings. I finally "got" it and am happily taking pictures.

I got the old Coolpix out and found out that over the years I had learned enough about digital cameras and settings, menus, and wheels that all of a sudden, that horrid interface wasn't so impossible. It's still not my choice, but not so awful anymore. (Too bad that along the way it's gotten a few stuck red pixels so it's not taking flawless pictures anymore.)

I am also convinced that wheels are not my cup of tea, while others may really like them. They are not a big selling point advantage on my list of priorities.