updated photos

DavidMillier · Nov 13, 2002

I was looking at the foliage in Karl's crops, to the side and in the background of the domes.

I'm 100% certain that if they weren't labelled no one would be able to tell from the leaves alone which was the D60 and which was SD9.

I'm also 100% certain that if you superimposed the images and flicked back and forth between them there would be essentially no difference.

If that's the kind of 'differences' that the evangelists are so fond of then we really are in the land of mysticism.

It's Peter Belt time all over again...

Matthew Cromer said:
The Sigma foliage is much better rendered and looks far more
realistic in that shot. The D60 foliage looks like the typical
interpolated Bayer mess.

--
my favorite work: http://www.pbase.com/sdaconsulting/favorite_work

DavidMillier · Nov 13, 2002

I've just asked a non photographic colleague's opinion - he detected no quality difference between the foliage and he wasn't able to pick one shot as preferable to the other..

DMillier said:
I'm 100% certain that if they weren't labelled no one would be able
to tell from the leaves alone which was the D60 and which was SD9.

I'm also 100% certain that if you superimposed the images and
flicked back and forth between them there would be essentially no
difference.

If that's the kind of 'differences' that the evangelists are so
fond of then we really are in the land of mysticism.

It's Peter Belt time all over again...

Matthew Cromer said:

The Sigma foliage is much better rendered and looks far more
realistic in that shot. The D60 foliage looks like the typical
interpolated Bayer mess.

--
my favorite work: http://www.pbase.com/sdaconsulting/favorite_work

Click to expand...

zettlers #105592 · Nov 13, 2002

First I went for the D60. But a couple of samples down the S2 was my winner. And in a couple of pictures D100 scored. And SD 9 one a couple. A shoot out with four winners? Well how do you stage a fair competition between cameras?

Regards
Zettlers

Todd said:
http://www.imaging-resource.com/NEWS/1037164752.html

Todd said:

they look very nice

http://www.steves-digicams.com/2002_reviews/sd9_samples.html

Click to expand...

harry · Nov 13, 2002

There should be no winners or losers. Clearly some people prefer one model than the other for certain attributes. The war, however, just started. Remember that not only the four DSLR have different sensors, but the lens systems are different (except D100 and S2). The firmware/software processing also would make a huge impact on image qualities (unless all are compared in the RAW mode).

Clearly there are room for improvement for all. For Foveon, a 6 mp or even 12 mp sensor down the road which allows ISO1000+ would quiet a lot of criticism. The SG9 color processing would also need some consistency and finer adjustments.

For all other type sensors, basically just improve on the ISO sensitivity, and maybe eventually pushing the 10+ mp size at a reasonable price ($2000).

All the above would not be a fantasy and could be reality sooner than most people would dare to admit. Thanks to the competition.

Harry

zettlers said:
Regards
Zettlers

Todd said:

http://www.imaging-resource.com/NEWS/1037164752.html

Todd said:

they look very nice

http://www.steves-digicams.com/2002_reviews/sd9_samples.html

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

--
Harry

Ladehaug · Nov 13, 2002

Laurence Matson said:
Not quite what the problem is here Karl. During your Köln posts you
were all over the Sigma because of the software manipulation in the
otherwise good shots. Are you now saying that the software may not
be used to correct the image? Perhaps the photographer forgot to
get the white balance right. This would not be the first camera to
require some thought in the white balance area. And if you want to
pursue color problems, please enlighten us on the D60's problems
with red in marginal lighting.

By the way, shouldn't you be in bed? The European dayshift is on
duty now. ;-))

This is correct, it is most of all a white balance issue, and the extensive CA seen in this sample is enhancing the color displacement. Obviously, the SD9 auto white balance is not working well, but this is an easy match to adjust with the Sigma Pro Software.

The comparison shots at IR are really interesting. They reveal some pros and cons for all of the cameras involved. It's my impression that several people in this forum are very focused on the flaws of the SD9. They don't seem to understand that the SD9 is a real camera that is actually available on the marked. Despite of its limitations and flaws, it is actually possible to take good (and even outstanding) pictures. The SD9 is not a cheap P&S camera. Therefore it is of major importance to learn how to use the camera the best way possible in a given situation. Of course, you can put everything on "Auto" and expect that the camera will always take the perfect shot in every possible situation. It simply doesn't work like that!

Later on, I shall post some really interesting comparison details that will bring the "camera battle" to another peak...

Geir Rune

Matthew Cromer · Nov 13, 2002

I see you are "100% certain" you are right. And you got someone to agree with you. Case closed.

--
my favorite work: http://www.pbase.com/sdaconsulting/favorite_work

Peter G · Nov 13, 2002

Matthew Cromer said:
I see you are "100% certain" you are right. And you got someone to
agree with you. Case closed.

I agree with him as well. And his view is much more moderate than this:

Matthew Cromer said:
The D60 foliage looks like the typical interpolated Bayer mess.

If it was such a mess, it should be pretty obvious. I was trying to stay away from these discussions from here on out, but it is these ridiculous over the top put down statements that spur me to build a direct comparisons of the images. I think it is time to play spot the bayer interpolated mess. But that will have to wait till I get home from work tonight.

Cheers,

Peter

DavidMillier · Nov 13, 2002

Mathew

The title of your previous post comes close to argument by ridicule.

I don't have an axe to grind over this - if the crops showed the superiority you claim, I would say so. But to my eyes they show absolutely 0% difference to the D60 images.

What can the explanation for this straight forward difference over the facts be caused by?

1. I'm blind

2. I'm lying

3. You're are lying

4. You're deluded

5. Some technical difference in our respective monitors is masking the effect

You may be able to think of some other posssibililities.

All I know for sure is it isn't 1. or 2.

Matthew Cromer said:
I see you are "100% certain" you are right. And you got someone to
agree with you. Case closed.

--
my favorite work: http://www.pbase.com/sdaconsulting/favorite_work

Roger Beckett · Nov 13, 2002

Karl Guttag said:
Just for everyone else, this is the comparison.

http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/SHOOTOUT/SHOOTOUT.HTM?photo=37

What I did just to compare is download the D60 and SD9 picture. I
then downsized the D60 picture to the SD9's size using photoshop's
bicubic (if anything this hurts the D60 since it has been resized).
The images are pretty close to the same FoV, but this comparison is
not about absolute sharpness anyway, it is about color.

Comparison of the red domes. Notice how the SD9 changes not only
the shade but the color changing from red to orange/yellow. This
is similar to the way that Red lights sometimes come out Yellow in
night shots:

http://www.fototime.com/ {4A10B690-6C80-4460-9CEE-BD547093D322} picture.JPG

http://www.fototime.com/ {DFB83BBE-9F42-4EB5-8CD4-1AEB4EC3F1AB} picture.JPG

Left side of of both images. Notice how the SD9 can't get the
colors in the write place. I don't believe that Sigma lenses are
this bad, but if they are, one could argue if Sigma lenses are this
bad why buy the SD9 and why would Sigma loan such a lousy lens to
the reviewer?:

http://www.fototime.com/ {361C3572-3665-46CB-AC56-6C78D98C0A63} picture.JPG

http://www.fototime.com/ {0BC02562-D919-48B2-B1D5-C400E9A65FD5} picture.JPG

And some of the foliage I was taking about from the middle of the
picture. Notice how drab the SD9 is:

http://www.fototime.com/ {72808C95-4AD2-46EA-9F2A-EA11B48E73F5} picture.JPG

http://www.fototime.com/ {B3E807FE-36A0-4E12-8792-BD4CF391998F} picture.JPG

Tim O'Connor said:

MikeBee said:

Tim O'Connor said:

Eh? which image are you talking about? I dont see any image with
3 red anything's...

Click to expand...

http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/SHOOTOUT/SHOOTOUT.HTM

-mikebee

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

--
Karl

This is a WB colour adjustment issue and has nothing to do with the chip.

The sun is coming from the right with a clear sky evident. therefore the part of the dome in sunshine will have an orange/yellow cast and the part in shadow will have a blue cast, as would the body of the structure.

The SD9 looks like it has applied a uniform WB, whilst the D60 has applied a "find high and low points" to each channel, raising the red/cyan channel in the upper quadrant.

Roger

Roger Beckett · Nov 13, 2002

why is it that it is only after you click the "post" botton you go .

I meant REDUCE the red/cyan and blue/yellow in the upper quadrants.
--
Roger

Another birder · Nov 13, 2002

Tim O'Connor said:
The S2 is by FAR the worst of the lot. The SD9 shows more detail,
but the colours appear to be a little off here and there. The D60
is MILES ahead of the other bayers though.

Actually I was being a but unfair. After you re-size all the cameras to the same size as the SD9 (or vis versa) the detail differences seem to drop off dramatically...

Todd · Nov 13, 2002

http://www.steves-digicams.com/2002_reviews/sd9_samples.html

standard M&M shots

they look very nice again

hmmmmmmmmmmmm

Todd said:
they look very nice

http://www.steves-digicams.com/2002_reviews/sd9_samples.html

Samuel Pyrtle · Nov 13, 2002

Todd said:
they look very nice

http://www.steves-digicams.com/2002_reviews/sd9_samples.html

--
Sam Pyrtle
F707 Owner & Lover
Sigma SD9 Owner & Lover
[email protected]

http://www3.photosig.com/viewuser.php?id=11179 (Sony Shots)
http://www.pbase.com/keysh2oboy/root (Sigma SD9 Shots)

Samuel Pyrtle · Nov 13, 2002

Do a comparison between the SD9, D60 and D100 on that shot of the red brick building with the green dumpster - and looking at the white numbers spray painted on the side...

Or whatever you like...

I am not too comfortable playing with PS yet - and don't want to post a comparison yet...

=)

PLUS! Star Trek is coming on!!!

=)
Sam

Todd said:
they look very nice

http://www.steves-digicams.com/2002_reviews/sd9_samples.html

--
Sam Pyrtle
F707 Owner & Lover
Sigma SD9 Owner & Lover
[email protected]

http://www3.photosig.com/viewuser.php?id=11179 (Sony Shots)
http://www.pbase.com/keysh2oboy/root (Sigma SD9 Shots)

Peter G · Nov 13, 2002

Come on. Ed is much better than star trek.

Samuel Pyrtle said:
Or whatever you like...

I am not too comfortable playing with PS yet - and don't want to
post a comparison yet...

=)

PLUS! Star Trek is coming on!!!

=)
Sam

Todd said:

they look very nice

http://www.steves-digicams.com/2002_reviews/sd9_samples.html

Click to expand...

--
Sam Pyrtle
F707 Owner & Lover
Sigma SD9 Owner & Lover
[email protected]

http://www3.photosig.com/viewuser.php?id=11179 (Sony Shots)
http://www.pbase.com/keysh2oboy/root (Sigma SD9 Shots)

Graham Sp · Nov 13, 2002

Steve's school image (red brick building) is my measure of a camera. It has grass, leaves, sign posts and roof tiles that no sub $3000 camera can record well yet.

Based on this image you can see that the SD9 has plenty of issues and bayer camera have nothing to fear for a year or two yet.

--
Graham

http://www.graham.uk.net

Ladehaug · Nov 13, 2002

Samuel Pyrtle said:
Do a comparison between the SD9, D60 and D100 on that shot of the
red brick building with the green dumpster - and looking at the
white numbers spray painted on the side...

Or whatever you like...

I am not too comfortable playing with PS yet - and don't want to
post a comparison yet...

=)

PLUS! Star Trek is coming on!!!

Hi Sam!

I will make more comparison crop samples. The "textil comparison" was only the first chapter.. ;-)

But you'll have to wait. It's late now, tomorrow is another day at work, and I need to sleep. I suspect I'll have some freaked out dreams of textures, different textils etc. this night, but oh well, that's life!

Geir Rune

Samuel Pyrtle · Nov 13, 2002

Geir R said:
Samuel Pyrtle said:

Do a comparison between the SD9, D60 and D100 on that shot of the
red brick building with the green dumpster - and looking at the
white numbers spray painted on the side...

Or whatever you like...

I am not too comfortable playing with PS yet - and don't want to
post a comparison yet...

=)

PLUS! Star Trek is coming on!!!

Click to expand...

Hi Sam!

I will make more comparison crop samples. The "textil comparison"
was only the first chapter.. ;-)

But you'll have to wait. It's late now, tomorrow is another day at
work, and I need to sleep. I suspect I'll have some freaked out
dreams of textures, different textils etc. this night, but oh well,
that's life!

Geir Rune

--
Sam Pyrtle
F707 Owner & Lover
Sigma SD9 Owner & Lover
[email protected]

http://www3.photosig.com/viewuser.php?id=11179 (Sony Shots)
http://www.pbase.com/keysh2oboy/root (Sigma SD9 Shots)

jdavis37 · Nov 13, 2002

And no am NOT talking about banding, etc! When Phil posted his sample pictures the SD9 images DID catch my eye even though I truly did not want to like the camera body enough to buy it. But Phil's shots just had a great look to them. Then several japanese pictures came out, some nice, some really horrible with blow outs, noise, etc Other sample images appeared and the SD9 lost much of its luster for me. Now I am seeing Steve's sample images and again am saying WOW Incredible color and depth.

So the pattern seems ot be with those using the camera and software. Some seem to get the SD9 to turn heads and others seem to get it to gag people. Maybe there IS something to learning to use the software properly and to also use the camera in a certain way. I dunno but these shots on Steve's do look good! Compare the reds of the M&M to the reds of the S2 and D100 reviews. There IS a difference

Dana Jacobsen · Nov 14, 2002

graham said:
Steve's school image (red brick building) is my measure of a
camera. It has grass, leaves, sign posts and roof tiles that no
sub $3000 camera can record well yet.

I agree that Steve's school image is a wonderful test image. It is one of the best I've found. Dave's "far field" shot of his house is pretty good too, but I love all the different details in the school shot. The Yamada airport scene is pretty good, but that is partly because we get those images a month ahead of everything else.

Graham Sp said:
Based on this image you can see that the SD9 has plenty of issues
and bayer camera have nothing to fear for a year or two yet.

Now that I've looked at the SD9 school image, I'd say it follows the same thing I see on ther other pictures -- the D60 is ahead by a hair in my opinion. Once again the 1Ds is just unbelievable -- only the Kodak 645 pro back matches it. Looking at scaled up versions of the D60 or SD9 compared to it... Wow -- I can't believe that merely adding 75% more pixels (32% linearly) makes that much difference.

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