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Cell phone cameras don't have MFA but no complaints. Why?

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this dichotomy seems to be the crux of the matter (for me there
should be no such dichotomy - both goals are important, and I do
delight when a critical focus is attained and kept during a sequence;
but this is indeed a matter of personal preference, esp. with such
utterly difficult if not outright impossible subjects like swallows in flight);

this shot, which seems to be the best in details shown of all you've
posted there at a bigger size,:



doesn't allow to decide whether it was due to a speed of the bird vs. SS used,
or just due to a very slight distance from attaining a criticality,
or just a sheer [small] size of the subject in frame, which caused a
relative smearing of feather details?

Mind, I'm not trying to slight the shot, it was an almost impossible
feat, but rather just to give my perspective of seeing relative
importance of various factors - all on a purely technical
platform of consideration,

jpr2
Birdman50 said:
jpr2 said:
...I've two questions, though, esp. as swallows and swifts are so
notoriously tough to get in flight:
  • did you use a tripod for panning/tracking?
Click to expand...
No. All my BIF's are hand-held. That is why only the EF 400mm Canon works for my style.
Birdman50 said:
  • do you think that using 1/8000 sec. instead would already allow to stop any traces of a motion blur on them, or still too slow?
Click to expand...
I only use a Shutter Priority 1/2500 for my flight shots. The 60D will adjust the ISO (set to Auto and Maximum 1600) and Aperture (ranges from f/5.6 to f/8) and I concentrate on tracking the subject. :-)
Birdman50 said:
it seems that your swallows thread was an originator of that myth
that 60d can AF perfectly with just any lens ... no matter how
badly miscalibrated, pity about that - it is no doubt a great camera,
but... a miracle worker???
Click to expand...
There's the gist of the whole thing! My SIF's were shot to see if the 60D could lock on focus as well as my 5D2 (contrary to many other observations, the 5D2 is no slouch). It was never meant to be used versus the 7D till somebody utterly belittled the 60D's AF and people started pointing to my post and I had to defend it.
Birdman50 said:
Birdman50 said:
You want real SIF's?

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1019&message=37110545
Click to expand...
Birdman50 said:
Taken with the 60D and a Canon EF 400 f/5.6L that needed -12 MA on my 5D2, but NOT on the 60D!
Click to expand...
could it be that your copy of 5d2 was so very badly off??

jpr2
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
--
~
street candids (non-interactive):
http://www.flickriver.com/photos/qmusaget/sets/72157609618638319/
music and dance:
http://www.flickriver.com/photos/qmusaget/sets/72157600341265280/
B&W:
http://www.flickriver.com/photos/qmusaget/sets/72157623306407882/
wildlife & macro:
http://www.flickriver.com/photos/qmusaget/sets/72157600341377106/
interactive street:
http://www.flickriver.com/photos/qmusaget/sets/72157623181919323/

Comments and critique are always welcome!
~
 
Peter, I would love to indulge you in your challenge, but I don't have a "fast prime" 'coz I can't carry those things anymore!

My last fast lens was the 70-200 f/2.8L and I sold that when I developed "gout"with my left hand - so sorry, I'm not about to spend money on this challenge.

I do have the 150mm f/2.8 Macro Sigma, will that do? Slow AF, but if its critical focusing you want, what subject would you like me to shoot?

Waiting .. :-)

BobbyK

--
To God be all the Glory!
 
BobbyK

It really is too bad you "fell" for those trolls as it seems their intentions are to antagonize you like a bully poking someone with a stick. You seem to be a nice guy and don't deserve that. May I suggest that you pause from this total utter waste of time debating nothing important with them? There is nothing you can prove to carlk or Peter or anyone else who simply must argue and have the last word. You can never "win" this silly argument. They will always find some counter-argument to support that you're wrong. Most importantly, don't become like them.

The proof of how well the 60D functions is in ALL the happy users who take the time to report their satisfaction. You are one of them. Don't worry, be happy.

All of our speculation is not going to change the facts that the 60D doesn't have MFA but is proving very capable as a photographic tool. I would say it is a far superior camera to the 7D from the point that almost all 60D users are satisfied with their camera unlike the many who purchased the 7D and had to return them or send them in to Canon Service Repair. Have we read of any user sending their 60D into Canon Repair? It does seem magical that the 50D successor has few complaints and many accolades, unlike the 7D where at best it is a mixed response.

What is really nice, is that there are few on this forum reporting problems using the 60D camera. We don't have to insult them and yell at them such themes and excuses like RTFM, or user error, user error, or tell them they are stupid like some on this forum do to newbies and others, technically challenged. Let the product speak for itself with all the satisfied users.
 
Got it riknash. Thanks for the advice. :-)

Best regards,

BobbyK
riknash said:
BobbyK

It really is too bad you "fell" for those trolls as it seems their intentions are to antagonize you like a bully poking someone with a stick. You seem to be a nice guy and don't deserve that. May I suggest that you pause from this total utter waste of time debating nothing important with them? There is nothing you can prove to carlk or Peter or anyone else who simply must argue and have the last word. You can never "win" this silly argument. They will always find some counter-argument to support that you're wrong. Most importantly, don't become like them.

The proof of how well the 60D functions is in ALL the happy users who take the time to report their satisfaction. You are one of them. Don't worry, be happy.

All of our speculation is not going to change the facts that the 60D doesn't have MFA but is proving very capable as a photographic tool. I would say it is a far superior camera to the 7D from the point that almost all 60D users are satisfied with their camera unlike the many who purchased the 7D and had to return them or send them in to Canon Service Repair. Have we read of any user sending their 60D into Canon Repair? It does seem magical that the 50D successor has few complaints and many accolades, unlike the 7D where at best it is a mixed response.

What is really nice, is that there are few on this forum reporting problems using the 60D camera. We don't have to insult them and yell at them such themes and excuses like RTFM, or user error, user error, or tell them they are stupid like some on this forum do to newbies and others, technically challenged. Let the product speak for itself with all the satisfied users.
Click to expand...
--
To God be all the Glory!
 
Yes there are happy 60D users and there are happy cell phone camera users. These are all capable cameras for what they do but you two are trying to make yours more than what it is and constantly bashing a better camera to enhance your self grafitication. You are calling the others troll when they want to clarify the facts?
riknash said:
BobbyK

It really is too bad you "fell" for those trolls as it seems their intentions are to antagonize you like a bully poking someone with a stick. You seem to be a nice guy and don't deserve that. May I suggest that you pause from this total utter waste of time debating nothing important with them? There is nothing you can prove to carlk or Peter or anyone else who simply must argue and have the last word. You can never "win" this silly argument. They will always find some counter-argument to support that you're wrong. Most importantly, don't become like them.

The proof of how well the 60D functions is in ALL the happy users who take the time to report their satisfaction. You are one of them. Don't worry, be happy.

All of our speculation is not going to change the facts that the 60D doesn't have MFA but is proving very capable as a photographic tool. I would say it is a far superior camera to the 7D from the point that almost all 60D users are satisfied with their camera unlike the many who purchased the 7D and had to return them or send them in to Canon Service Repair. Have we read of any user sending their 60D into Canon Repair? It does seem magical that the 50D successor has few complaints and many accolades, unlike the 7D where at best it is a mixed response.

What is really nice, is that there are few on this forum reporting problems using the 60D camera. We don't have to insult them and yell at them such themes and excuses like RTFM, or user error, user error, or tell them they are stupid like some on this forum do to newbies and others, technically challenged. Let the product speak for itself with all the satisfied users.
Click to expand...
 
The profile does fit what I call less demanding users, one of reason we thought why there is not many complaints from cell phone or lower level cameras. When you don't shoot super thin DOF and don't care for critical sharpness then why talking about the need for MFA or not? For THOSE people yes it doesn't matter whether there is MFA or not.
Peter 13 said:
What is under attack is the stupid belief (I m talking about the 60D now :)) that the 60D has some kind of magical AF system. Did you see this shot below? There is more where it came from. Now, your shots are nice. I checked tne EXIF on one of them, f/6.3. The tracking abilities of the 60D are much more important than critical AF in this case. I could have taken some of those with the 350D. But believe me, the 350D was bad with really fast lenses.

Now, show me a well focused shot with a fast prime. I challenge you! :)

Click to expand...
 
riknash said:
What is really nice, is that there are few on this forum reporting problems using the 60D camera.
Click to expand...
That is funny, actually. I wondered what happened to the complaints "my camera cannot read my mind". I mean, people that use all AF points and hope that the camera will focus where they think it should. Or all other user errors. Or pics of angled charts with the question - do you think that my camera/lens focuses right? Is it possible that the 60D owners feel embarrassed to complain after all that has been said here about the lack of MA?
 
Oh-hum.. more troll bait. You're the OP who started this thread with a sarcastic op that several "fell for" as you intentionally left out details to draw them in. Isn't that troll bait?
carlk said:
Yes there are happy 60D users and there are happy cell phone camera users. These are all capable cameras for what they do but you two are trying to make yours more than what it is and constantly bashing a better camera to enhance your self grafitication. You are calling the others troll when they want to clarify the facts?
Click to expand...
Ok, ok, the 7D is a better camera....when it is properly aligned. Too many brand new cameras have had to go to Canon Service Repair. Others were simply returned to the retailer. I have personally observed 3 copies in a row not functioning correctly with the Canon rep in personal attendance. That is unacceptable. Some of the best on this forum have had to send or replace their 7D's because they were out-of-alignment. That is unacceptable. It was not a minor random chance occurrence. Are these observations called camera bashing? Yet the 60D is introduced, and simply just works...without MFA. Now that is what I call a success. A camera that is quite capable of photos just as good as what comes out of a 7D. Even quite capable with hard to shoot swallows and sports. Just as capable with portraits and landscapes. No, it's not magical but rather well designed and well produced to meet the expectations and delight the user. For some reason you want to bash 60D users as less demanding and implying that they are less capable than 7D owners. That's just silly fanaticism about a particular model. Camera bodies will come and go and like it or not, each will only shine for a short while, including both the 7D and the 60D. Nothing to get worked up in a lather about.... Now move along or get off the bridge.
 
Don't call me troll. I wouldn't start this tread if not for the maxed out thread about 60D has a super good AF and it's the reason it does not have/need MFA.

You’re asking others to stop while you continue to spill out the garbage about 7D AF “issues”? Don’t you just get tired? After all these time why someone like you still don’t want to believe 7D got a superb and reliable AF system for people who want it and know how to use it? Even Nikon trolls have stopped bashing it by now. Now only few of you 60D (haha 60D) guys still want to spread your fantasy by bashing a clearly better camera with all the lies and nonsense logics.

Why 60D does not have as many initial complaints? The reason is it has simple AF system just like 40D, or 50D less MFA. It’s the same reason you hear few 40D/50D users complain about AF on their cameras now. If you screen out from the 7D complaints people inappropriately used zone AF, AF point expansion and all 19 AF point turned on, modes that are not even available on 40D/50D/60D then there is actually not many cases left.

The other reason is of course because on average 60D users are less demanding (the cell phone analogy) than the pro/semi-pro level cameras. We actually have seen a perfect example here. I don’t know what kind of stuff you’re shooting but I’m pretty sure you don’t shoot challenging situations with super thin DOF. Birdman50 is probably one of the better 60D shooters but he just gave up producing his critical sharp images even after he put up the challenge. To be fair some of his small bird in flight images are not very easy to catch but he doesn’t have any real sharp pictures even for the still birds he showed. Some of them are actually unacceptable to my standard. I remember Bob (can’t remember his screen name) was one of the early 7D AF complainers but the samples he considered not well focused were actually no worse than some of the samples Birdman50 showed.

I’m just an average 7D shooter but I already know I can get better results from the better AF, and yes MFA. You can also check some of the best bird/nature photographers that use 7D: Arthur Morris, Juna, Romy, Peacefog… and see what they got from 7D and what they say about 7D and its AF. You’ll realize how stupid some of your comments are.

My offer still stands. I will leave you two alone to enjoy your camera and photography if you stop bashing 7D and its AF.
 
Olga Johnson said:
Olga Johnson said:
Even now there are 7D AF complaints that can be attributed entirely to user error.
Click to expand...
And we'll continue to see those. But those are seen for 60D and 550D.
Click to expand...
Yep; and when you exclude the issues where people use green box/full auto mode for shots they take without checking the VF or screen, or use AI Servo AF for still portraits, or one-shot AF for moving targets, there really aren't that many real issues. The 7D just added a bit of capability (and accompanying complexity) that was not previously existent in any model below the 5D.
Olga Johnson said:
--
Olga
Click to expand...
--
Caution: Do not stare into laser with remaining eye.
 
kimvette said:
Yep; and when you exclude the issues where people use green box/full auto mode for shots they take without checking the VF or screen, or use AI Servo AF for still portraits, or one-shot AF for moving targets, there really aren't that many real issues.
Click to expand...
Funny, we do no see even those (with the 60D). I guess that proves that the 60D is immune to such user errors as well.
 
Sorry riknash, just dropping by:
carlk said:
Don't call me troll. I wouldn't start this tread if not for the maxed out thread about 60D has a super good AF and it's the reason it does not have/need MFA.
Click to expand...
Yes, the 60D has HAS super-good AF right out of the box!
carlk said:
You’re asking others to stop while you continue to spill out the garbage about 7D AF “issues”? Don’t you just get tired? After all these time why someone like you still don’t want to believe 7D got a superb and reliable AF system for people who want it and know how to use it? Even Nikon trolls have stopped bashing it by now. Now only few of you 60D (haha 60D) guys still want to spread your fantasy by bashing a clearly better camera with all the lies and nonsense logics.
Click to expand...
Even if true - what's so bad about the 60D performing so well, without MA?
carlk said:
Why 60D does not have as many initial complaints? The reason is it has simple AF system just like 40D, or 50D less MFA. It’s the same reason you hear few 40D/50D users complain about AF on their cameras now. If you screen out from the 7D complaints people inappropriately used zone AF, AF point expansion and all 19 AF point turned on, modes that are not even available on 40D/50D/60D then there is actually not many cases left.
Click to expand...
There were no initial complaints because there was nothing to complain about! Simple!
carlk said:
The other reason is of course because on average 60D users are less demanding (the cell phone analogy) than the pro/semi-pro level cameras. We actually have seen a perfect example here. I don’t know what kind of stuff you’re shooting but I’m pretty sure you don’t shoot challenging situations with super thin DOF. Birdman50 is probably one of the better 60D shooters but he just gave up producing his critical sharp images even after he put up the challenge. To be fair some of his small bird in flight images are not very easy to catch but he doesn’t have any real sharp pictures even for the still birds he showed. Some of them are actually unacceptable to my standard. I remember Bob (can’t remember his screen name) was one of the early 7D AF complainers but the samples he considered not well focused were actually no worse than some of the samples Birdman50 showed.
Click to expand...
You're really a character, aren't you? That Godwit sample was unsharpened for an exhibit, which is now on-going! With minimal processing, not like your pathetic Egret that was probably taken at a ZOO! And it's not even CRITICALLY sharp! Yuor 100% crop is soooo 100% processed-looking, I did not want to shame you too much!

Here's the processed image that's sold 5 copies so far at 135 USD each at the exhibition:



Do I need a 100% Crop for it to sell???

And what do you mean I gave up posting "critically sharp" photos with super-thin DOF? Does any ONE of your photo have a thinner DOF than this or did you really think your bird photos are good?



I just did not want to hurt your photographer's side, that's all! You're so-called critically focused flying Egret might as well be a turtle in flight!

Let me see you take shot of even one of the plovers with your critically-focused ultra-advanced 7D! Let alone the Swallows! You're just so --- dumb?

I didn't even try to focus properly/configure/rtfm this one - and definitely no MA!:



And for the record - We don't bash the 7D - you try to belittle our choice of the 60D then cry mama when confronted with the truth - because we chose the right time to upgrade and that's all there is to it! Live with your problems, troll!

BobbyK

--
To God be all the Glory!
 
Peter, people using the 60D are not embarassed, it's people who envy people with the 60D or 7D that are envious.
Peter 13 said:
riknash said:
What is really nice, is that there are few on this forum reporting problems using the 60D camera.
Click to expand...
That is funny, actually. I wondered what happened to the complaints "my camera cannot read my mind". I mean, people that use all AF points and hope that the camera will focus where they think it should. Or all other user errors. Or pics of angled charts with the question - do you think that my camera/lens focuses right? Is it possible that the 60D owners feel embarrassed to complain after all that has been said here about the lack of MA?
Click to expand...
All that's said here about lack of MA only means that 60D owners are HAPPY. MA is for pixel-peepers who never grew up from the 20D days!

BobbyK

--
To God be all the Glory!
 
Yes, Peter, and the reality is a couple or so more may have problems. And the sad fact is that you can never own the 60D and experience the joy of using it. Why? 'cause you bashed it already - and your pride will not let you have one ever more. That's also the reality!

Sincerely,

BobbyK
Peter 13 said:
Birdman50 said:
All that's said here about lack of MA only means that 60D owners are HAPPY.
Click to expand...
Like this one here?

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1019&message=37615785

Or like the OP of the same thread?

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1019&message=37614416

Birdman50 , it is time to face reality (I am still talking about cameras).
Click to expand...
--
To God be all the Glory!
 
both are taken with 40d, and the bottom one has lots of very visible
artifacts - why such examples????

jpr2
Birdman50 said:


Click to expand...
--
~
street candids (non-interactive):
http://www.flickriver.com/photos/qmusaget/sets/72157609618638319/
music and dance:
http://www.flickriver.com/photos/qmusaget/sets/72157600341265280/
B&W:
http://www.flickriver.com/photos/qmusaget/sets/72157623306407882/
wildlife & macro:
http://www.flickriver.com/photos/qmusaget/sets/72157600341377106/
interactive street:
http://www.flickriver.com/photos/qmusaget/sets/72157623181919323/

Comments and critique are always welcome!
~
 
You still own the 50D, and that's a great camera, but lot's of people have upgraded to the 60D or 7D - why don't you buy the 7D now and get it over with? Hmmm, why did you NOT buy the 7D?

BobbyK
Peter 13 said:
Birdman50 said:
All that's said here about lack of MA only means that 60D owners are HAPPY.
Click to expand...
Like this one here?

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1019&message=37615785

Or like the OP of the same thread?

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1019&message=37614416

Birdman50 , it is time to face reality (I am still talking about cameras).
Click to expand...
--
To God be all the Glory!
 
Because those are the least possible things that can happen with a camera that does NOT have MA - and a very old model at that, that why :-) Shot in JPEG and not even PP'd well!

This thread is about "MFA" and not photo qualit, right?

BobbyK

--
To God be all the Glory!
 
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