Ambient (Sky) underexposure with flash

Hi everyone.

I'm trying to figure out something. I have a two part question...

I'm wondering the following. If I am using a studio battery strobe outdoors and want to underexpose the ambient by two stops and correctly light a model...

Using manual let's say I am getting the following metering for the scene 1/250 sec, f11.

If I used a 2 stop ND filter so I could get a larger aperture for the same scene, my ambient would now be 1/250 sec at f5.6.

I would change my aperture to f11 to underexpose the ambient. Would I now set my studio strobe to output f11 for this same scene with 2 stop ND?

Would highly appreciate some advice.
Hi guys, Thanks again for all the info.

The reason I want to use the ND filter is not that my flash is not powerful enough, it's that I don't want to shoot at f22, I would rather set the camera to f11 and set my flash to output f22 with the 2 stop ND filter. Adding the ND filter was confusing me as to what settings to set my flash output with it on.
If the desired result is obtained at 1/250s at f22 with your background underexposed by 2 stops and your subject correctly exposed then your flash meter will indicate f22 as your correct exposure.

If you add a 2 stop ND you will now be shooting at 1/250s at f11 with the same result.

Your flash meter will still read f22.. (not the f11 you indicated above).

--
Ian.

Samples of work: http://www.AccoladePhotography.co.uk
Weddings: http://www.AccoladeWeddings.com
Events: http://www.OfficialPhotographer.com

Theres only one sun. Why do I need more than one light to get a natural result?
 
If you have 'power' to turn up you have no need for anything else. You just do that, just turn up the power. Least of all use an ND filter, this provides no advantage to darkening a background
Turning up the flash power requires a smaller aperture - we do not want to change aperture as it will affect the look of the image. There are better choices to darkening the background. Shutter speed, ISO, and then finally ND. The last two will require raising the flash power level or bringing it closer to the subject.
If you can't get your background dark enough when you're using your flash at full power, adding ND won't help in any way... your flash is just incapable.
In the first place, the suggestion of using ND when trying to darken a backround is unfounded as ND doesn't assist in this in any way. The only useful purpose it serves is to allow a more suitable / wider aperture. An ND filter will not add any more power to your flash or reduce background brightness when your lighting is at full output. Adjusting output is the first option, if it's available, if it's not - no amount of ND will help.

Most lenses shift down to around f32 which is adequate to underexpose a background by 3.5 stops at 100 ISO even on the brightest of days in the Sahara..
That is true but would be a poor choice for the purpose the OP had in mind. Remember, unless you’re doing documentary work, photography is about the art . Techniques are used to achieve the artistic objective. If your vision of the image calls for a blurry but properly exposed background, you’re not going to want to use f/32! You’re going to want to use a different tool from your bag of tricks.

As I understood the OP’s question, they are shooting a foreground subject in the shade with a portable strobe (implies manual flash and operation at normal sync speed, in other words, no high speed TTL flash). They also have a bright background in the distance (sunlit hills for example) that they would like to keep at the normal exposure appearance (not washed out).

Using the Sunny 16 rule, at ISO 200, one would need 1/200s at f/16 for the sunlit background. To achieve shallow DOF using f/5.6, one would need to change to a shutter speed of 1/1600. That’s fine for the background, but there is still the strobe to deal with. The high shutter speed is not a problem with an electronic shutter camera like a Canon G10 but impossible with a modern DSLR since the sync speed is closer to 1/200.

The next tool they could use would be to lower the ISO. Let’s say the camera can only go down to ISO100. This means that we could reset the shutter to 1/800s which helps but is still two stops faster than sync speed. And that is as far as we can go without lightening the background which is not per our artistic vision.

One could next go for the aperture adjustment, but we’ve already noted that it would alter the character of the image. A small aperture would also increase diffraction effects, making in focus objects lose contrast and resolution. We already used up the range for the ISO, so the next tool we have to bring the shutter speed down is to put the 2 stop ND filter on the lens.

Now finally the shutter can be lowered to 1/200 so that the camera can fully sync with the flash. But as UK photographers has emphasized over and over, the flash power has also be reduced by 2 stops from the ND filter and 1 stop from ISO reduction. The OP has stated that they have a battery powered strobe which implies something more powerful than a speedlight. My 400ws strobe usually ends up set around 1/10 power when I try to use it for fill light purposes from 8 feet away so I have no reason to doubt they have reserve capacity available by simply raising the power setting. By raising the power setting three stops, the effect of the flash through the ND filter and ISO reduction is restored while the distant background is unaffected. Solution implemented. Take the pictures. Move on.

Even if they used a speedlight, and were in fact at full power, they would still have one or two more techniques they could use. They could add a more flash units as someone suggested. Chimera sells multi hot shoe mounts. And they could also halve the distance of the strobe to the subject to gain back two stops they lost from the ND effect. This is exactly the method I used successfully on a recent shoot.
 
Which is why I picked up a dual flash head to use with ND. Works fine so far.
The only time you would get an advantage to making a background darker with that is if you used a LESS THAN 1 stop ND filter.

Maximum benefit with two flash units is obtained when used WITHOUT an ND filter and both units at full power.

--
Ian.

Samples of work: http://www.AccoladePhotography.co.uk
Weddings: http://www.AccoladeWeddings.com
Events: http://www.OfficialPhotographer.com

Theres only one sun. Why do I need more than one light to get a natural result?
Interesting point, but that must depend on many factors: the GN of the flashes, the power output used for the shot, the distance of the flash from the subject. I mean, it's working for me. I don't keep my pictures here on my laptop or I'd post some examples, but one of my favorites was under a bridge during a bright sunny day. I shot the model under the shade of the bridge with the daylight at her back. Brought the flash in close (dual heads), shot at full power, ND4 filter. The daylight looked like evening, and she looked perfect. So much so that I didn't need to do anything in post. It was exactly as I intended.
 
UKphotographers wrote:
Most lenses shift down to around f32 which is adequate to underexpose a background by 3.5 stops at 100 ISO even on the brightest of days in the Sahara..
That is true but would be a poor choice for the purpose the OP had in mind.
Mike (the OP ) never mentioned a purpose. He just wanted to know what to meter for. 'Purposes' were introduced as guesses by other people.
As I understood the OP’s question, they are shooting a foreground subject in the shade with a portable strobe (implies manual flash and operation at normal sync speed, in other words, no high speed TTL flash). They also have a bright background in the distance (sunlit hills for example) that they would like to keep at the normal exposure appearance (not washed out).
No. He (they) just wants the sky 2 stops darker and the subject correctly exposed.
Now finally the shutter can be lowered to 1/200 so that the camera can fully sync with the flash. But as UK photographers has emphasized over and over, the flash power has also be reduced by 2 stops from the ND filter and 1 stop from ISO reduction.
Yeah, thats me. Although I never mentioned adjusting ISO as it was never an issue.
Even if they used a speedlight, and were in fact at full power, they would still have one or two more techniques they could use. They could add a more flash units as someone suggested. Chimera sells multi hot shoe mounts. And they could also halve the distance of the strobe to the subject to gain back two stops they lost from the ND effect. This is exactly the method I used successfully on a recent shoot.
I think it's obvious then that adding ND has no effect on darkening a background as the only way this is done is by adding more output to your flash, however you want to do it - which has been my point all along.

Adding ND affects BOTH ambient and flash equivalently and thus is only of benefit to openning your aperture wider.

Your point..
Those are useful rules except that they don't address what to do with a ND filter. That is, once you've reached the sync speed barrier of about 1/250th sec and have lowered the ISO as far as it can go, a modern DSLR will still not be able to darken a sunny sky background while using a strobe fill unless ND filtration is added.
.. is wrong. It's plainly obvious that you can add more flash output and reduce background brightness by up to 3.5 stops and using an ND filter has nothing to do with that.

--

Ian.

Samples of work: http://www.AccoladePhotography.co.uk
Weddings: http://www.AccoladeWeddings.com
Events: http://www.OfficialPhotographer.com

Theres only one sun. Why do I need more than one light to get a natural result?
 
I think it's obvious then that adding ND has no effect on darkening a background as the only way this is done is by adding more output to your flash
Really? The only way? So increasing shutter speed won't darken a background. Well so much for all the images proving otherwise. And then just "adding more output to the flash" will darken a background somehow all on its own? What, the extra photons from the flash will turn into dark matter and obscure the light from the background? No, the ND filter and/or ISO sets the stage for the flash to be brought in at a higher power setting thus changing the ratio of flash to ambient.
Your point..
Those are useful rules except that they don't address what to do with a ND filter. That is, once you've reached the sync speed barrier of about 1/250th sec and have lowered the ISO as far as it can go, a modern DSLR will still not be able to darken a sunny sky background while using a strobe fill unless ND filtration is added.
.. is wrong. It's plainly obvious that you can add more flash output and reduce background brightness by up to 3.5 stops and using an ND filter has nothing to do with that.
It's not wrong. It's just incomplete - kind of like your "adding flash will darken a background" statement. I believe my last post fills in the remaining info just fine
 
Brought the flash in close (dual heads), shot at full power, ND4 filter. The daylight looked like evening, and she looked perfect. So much so that I didn't need to do anything in post. It was exactly as I intended.
Good.

All your ND filter did was enable you to open your aperture more. It was the lighting ratio that was to your liking and this ratio takes no influence from your filter.

--
Ian.

Samples of work: http://www.AccoladePhotography.co.uk
Weddings: http://www.AccoladeWeddings.com
Events: http://www.OfficialPhotographer.com

Theres only one sun. Why do I need more than one light to get a natural result?
 
Those are useful rules except that they don't address what to do with a ND filter. That is, once you've reached the sync speed barrier of about 1/250th sec and have lowered the ISO as far as it can go, a modern DSLR will still not be able to darken a sunny sky background while using a strobe fill unless ND filtration is added.
.. is wrong. It's plainly obvious that you can add more flash output and reduce background brightness by up to 3.5 stops and using an ND filter has nothing to do with that.
It's not wrong. It's just incomplete - kind of like your "adding flash will darken a background" statement. I believe my last post fills in the remaining info just fine
It's just wrong. Your last point makes no such correction.

Modern DSLRs manage quite easily to darken sunny skies even in their common configurations. If you introduce lower than 100 ISO sensitivity and X-sync beyond 1/200s and matched duration hypersync with long duration flash they become even more capable without ever a suggestion of an ND filter anywhere. The restrictive factor is the flash output, not the camera.

ND filters are as misunderstood as the expectation that HSS gives you some sort of hidden fire power to be used against bright light.. both offer no such advantage.

--
Ian.

Samples of work: http://www.AccoladePhotography.co.uk
Weddings: http://www.AccoladeWeddings.com
Events: http://www.OfficialPhotographer.com

Theres only one sun. Why do I need more than one light to get a natural result?
 
Using the Sunny 16 rule, at ISO 200, one would need 1/200s at f/16 for the sunlit background. To achieve shallow DOF using f/5.6, one would need to change to a shutter speed of 1/1600. That’s fine for the background, but there is still the strobe to deal with. The high shutter speed is not a problem with an electronic shutter camera like a Canon G10 but impossible with a modern DSLR since the sync speed is closer to 1/200.
Not impossible at all. Once the ratio is correct there's no problem for whatever aperture you require.

--
Ian.

Samples of work: http://www.AccoladePhotography.co.uk
Weddings: http://www.AccoladeWeddings.com
Events: http://www.OfficialPhotographer.com

Theres only one sun. Why do I need more than one light to get a natural result?
 
Using the Sunny 16 rule, at ISO 200, one would need 1/200s at f/16 for the sunlit background. To achieve shallow DOF using f/5.6, one would need to change to a shutter speed of 1/1600. That’s fine for the background, but there is still the strobe to deal with. The high shutter speed is not a problem with an electronic shutter camera like a Canon G10 but impossible with a modern DSLR since the sync speed is closer to 1/200.
Not impossible at all. Once the ratio is correct there's no problem for whatever aperture you require.
Can you elaborate. What do you mean by the correct ratio and how would I get a darker background at say f2.8, f5.6, and f11 under the conditions of midday sun and the model has a big wide hat shading her face?
 
I would do the following procedure:

1. regular measuring with exposure reader yields 1/250 + f11 @ ISO 200 (as the starting example)
2. put the 2 stop ND Filter
3. adjust ISO to 800 in the exposure reader yields: 1/250 + f5.6

4. set the camera to 1/250 + f11 since I want the ambient to underexpose by 2 stops

5. increase/decrease and measure the flash output until exposure reading yields f11 (@ISO 800), which is equivalent to f22 @ISO200.

right?
--
Juerg
 
sorry, obviously wrong:

ISO 50 instead of ISO 800....confused

here it goes better:

1. regular measuring with exposure reader yields 1/250 + f11 @ ISO 200 (as the starting example)
2. put the 2 stop ND Filter
3. adjust ISO to 50 in the exposure reader yields: 1/250 + f5.6

4. set the camera to 1/250 + f11 since I want the ambient to underexpose by 2 stops

5. increase/decrease and measure the flash output until exposure reading yields f11 (@ISO 50), which is equivalent to f22 @ISO200.

puuuh...sweat....
 
Using the Sunny 16 rule, at ISO 200, one would need 1/200s at f/16 for the sunlit background. To achieve shallow DOF using f/5.6, one would need to change to a shutter speed of 1/1600. That’s fine for the background, but there is still the strobe to deal with. The high shutter speed is not a problem with an electronic shutter camera like a Canon G10 but impossible with a modern DSLR since the sync speed is closer to 1/200.
Not impossible at all. Once the ratio is correct there's no problem for whatever aperture you require.
Can you elaborate. What do you mean by the correct ratio and how would I get a darker background at say f2.8, f5.6, and f11 under the conditions of midday sun and the model has a big wide hat shading her face?
You need to use a flash that has a sustained long flash duration, ideally around 1/125 or shorter to approaching 1/200s.

You then trick your camera to shoot in HSS mode which advances the sync timing to the beginning of the shutter opening.

You then set your ratio of lighting you want for your subject / background balance using your fastest x-sync.

Then adjust your aperture/shutter combination to your preferred aperture.. The light on subject stays pretty much the same throughout - whatever aperture you chose.

Here's an illustration using Quantum and Lumedyne.. at faster shutterspeeds my flash becomes more powerful - nice - :) just adjust to fine tune :



--
Ian.

Samples of work: http://www.AccoladePhotography.co.uk
Weddings: http://www.AccoladeWeddings.com
Events: http://www.OfficialPhotographer.com

Theres only one sun. Why do I need more than one light to get a natural result?
 
Is the model in the same ambient light as the background? If so, you're still going to get a contribution from the -2 stop ambient on the subject and you would need to account for that by underexposing the flash by 0.2.
I’d like to reiterate the point that ‘the Sage Knows’ made in his first post. He made a valid point that may not have been fully realized since many are still saying f/22. Although, I’m not quite sure how the -0.2 comes about. I believe it’s more like -0.5. Here’s why:

Assuming a model has f/11 ambient light on her and you wish to underexposed the background 2 stops, then (f/11 + f/11= f/16) so (f/11+f/11+f/11+f/11= f/22). One unit of f/11 light is already on the model, or 1/4 of the total amount needed to get to f/22. Your flash needs to provide the remaining (3) additional units of f/11 light. That is, we only need to make up the difference between the ambient and what is required to get to f/22, another 75%. So, what are (3) f/11’s?

Set your flash to output f/16.5 light at the subject, the model will now be properly exposed for 1/250 sec at f/22 and the ambient will be underexposed 2 stops.

--

I once had a perfectly exposed image of a white cow in a snow storm eating marshmallows.
 
Sage said a modern DSLR once it reaches 1/250 needs a ND filter to darken sky. That is wrong. SUNNY 16 rule = ISO = shutter speed @ f/16. Just changing the shutter speed to 1/250th and leaving the aperture at f/16 would underexpose the sky by 1 and 1/3 f/stops.

If you have a flash with a guide number of 160 or greater, you can handle the flash exposure at 10 feet with the GN160 unit, or 14 feet with a GN 220 unit

No ND filters involved.....
 
Sage said a modern DSLR once it reaches 1/250 needs a ND filter to darken sky. That is wrong. SUNNY 16 rule = ISO = shutter speed @ f/16. Just changing the shutter speed to 1/250th and leaving the aperture at f/16 would underexpose the sky by 1 and 1/3 f/stops.
...and if you can manage to reduce that by two stops to f32 by adding more flash power you get nearly 3.5 stops underexposed bgd as I previously noted :)

--
Ian.

Samples of work: http://www.AccoladePhotography.co.uk
Weddings: http://www.AccoladeWeddings.com
Events: http://www.OfficialPhotographer.com

Theres only one sun. Why do I need more than one light to get a natural result?
 
SUNNY 16 rule = ISO = shutter speed @ f/16. Just changing the shutter speed to 1/250th and leaving the aperture at f/16 would underexpose the sky by 1 and 1/3 f/stops.
Yes but that will not allow for a shallow Depth of Field.

Maybe you missed the preamble. Here is it again:

My objective, not necessarily the OP's: Shoot a foreground subject in the shade with portable strobes and with a bright background in the distance (sunlit hills for example) at the normal exposure appearance (not washed out). And I wanted a somewhat shallow DOF.

Using the Sunny 16 rule, at ISO 200, one would need 1/200s at f/16 for the sunlit background. But f/16 IS NOT what I what. To achieve shallow DOF using f/5.6, one would need to go to a shutter speed of 1/1600. That’s fine for the background, but there is still the strobe to deal with. The high shutter speed syncing is not a problem with an electronic shutter camera like a Canon G10 but impossible with a modern DSLR since the sync speed is closer to 1/200.

The next tool to use would be to lower the ISO. Let’s say the camera can only go down to ISO100. This means that we could reset the shutter to 1/800s which helps but is still two stops faster than sync speed. And that is as far as we can go without lightening the background or affecting the DOF which is not per our artistic vision.

One could next go for the aperture adjustment, but we’ve already noted that it would alter the character of the image. A small aperture would also increase diffraction effects, making in focus objects lose contrast and resolution. Once again we do not want to change the aperture! That will make the background sharper which is against my intent. We already used up the range for the ISO, so the next tool we have to bring the shutter speed down is to put the 2 stop ND filter on the lens.

Now finally the shutter can be lowered to 1/200 so that the camera can fully sync with the flash. But the flash power was also reduced by 2 stops from the ND filter and 1 stop from ISO reduction, I know. I also know that my 400ws strobe usually ends up set around 1/10 power from 8 feet away so there is reserve capacity available by simply raising the power setting three stops. The effect of the flash through the ND filter and ISO reduction is restored while the distant background is unaffected by the flash.

Obviously the method requires reserve capacity in the flash. At least three stops worth and more if you wish to darken the sky further. If you don’t have it, then it won’t work. But one should not just make a blanket statement that you can’t or shouldn't do this with a ND filter. Sure there are other methods, as you proposed, but the other thing I said is that unless you’re doing documentary work, photography is about the art . Techniques are used to achieve the artistic objective. If your vision of the image calls for a blurry but properly exposed background, you’re not going to want to use f/32! You’re going to want to use a different method. Others such as UK Photographers use different methods like HSS. That’s fine when their equipment allows it.

The method I outlined above works for me. In the example below, the subject was facing away from the sun standing with the sun coming over her right shoulder. A diffused 400ws Elinchrom was the main light aimed at her left shoulder (coming from the right of the picture). A Nikon SB900 speedlight was the fill source through a mini softbox near the camera about 8 feet away. The lights were triggered by a hot shoe mounted Pocket Wizard. A 1 stop ND filter + about a 1.5 stop polarizer were over the lens. The EXIF data says the exposure was 1/160s, f3.5, ISO 100 at about 2PM on a sunny day. Foreground and background were both exposed the way I planned in terms of brightness and appearance.



 
Is the model in the same ambient light as the background? If so, you're still going to get a contribution from the -2 stop ambient on the subject and you would need to account for that by underexposing the flash by 0.2.
I’d like to reiterate the point that ‘the Sage Knows’ made in his first post. He made a valid point that may not have been fully realized since many are still saying f/22. Although, I’m not quite sure how the -0.2 comes about. I believe it’s more like -0.5.
You’re absolutely right about that. What happened was I had my thumb on the ”.” and poked the 2 instead of the 5 with my index finger on the numeric keypad.
Thanks - Good catch.
 
Is the model in the same ambient light as the background? If so, you're still going to get a contribution from the -2 stop ambient on the subject and you would need to account for that by underexposing the flash by 0.2.
I’d like to reiterate the point that ‘the Sage Knows’ made in his first post. He made a valid point that may not have been fully realized since many are still saying f/22. Although, I’m not quite sure how the -0.2 comes about. I believe it’s more like -0.5.
You’re absolutely right about that. What happened was I had my thumb on the ”.” and poked the 2 instead of the 5 with my index finger on the numeric keypad.
Thanks - Good catch.
No problem, I just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something :)

--

I once had a perfectly exposed image of a white cow in a snow storm eating marshmallows.
 

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