Fluidity and Warmth

Actually, this is perhaps the only thing you've said so far that really makes me want to argue with you because it's elitist nonsense. Photography is like any other artistic endeavour: it is a fusion of craft and vision.

I happen to believe that both these are amenable to growth and improvement with practice. Technique is perhaps the easiest to work on as it relies more on knowledge and discipline but vision, composition, appreciation of the vital role of lighting etc are also things that improve with practice and by looking at the work of others.
How can I can baptised ?
Shoot film for 30 years, figure out what works for you and then
make a personal comment or two on the nature of photography at DPR;
you'll soon see the light!

Actually its interesting you mention baptism. Here's my final
statement concerning photography on DPR, The all-techno / all the
time types are really gonna like this one. You're born with an eye
for photography or you're not. You'll never learn how to be a good
photographer by reading books, searching the net, buying a digital
camera or taking classes. These things will help you perfect a
technique perhaps but unless you're born with an eye that knows how
to conceive and compose a shot and when exactly to trip a shutter,
you'll never understand a thread like this one.

It ain't about mysticism and it ain't about magic; but it
definitely concerns more than quantifiable physics. Those that
know, know. Those who are scratching their heads will never know
and I can't help enlighten you evidentially. So it goes. It was
worth a stab though. I've had fun, hope you all did too.
--
Michael OHara / WetPlanet / Honolulu
http://www.DiveSlates.com
 
Erik,

I've a fairly sharp mind and usually think things through but your posts shows me again how I can say something without much deep thought and it results in another REALLY thinking about it..

If you have ever done a Meyers briggs profile I am an N to a very large degree... N is for intuitor and N's tend to be " big picture" driven rather than detail. So often I am discussing big picture ideas when i post.. I don't have the time to seriously analyze these things..

That said let me answer your questions...

On all versus some pipctures, the samples Phil published and the model pictures on the German website to my eyes had a lot of color depth to them. They were simply pleasing to my eyes even with any sensor imperfections. Most of the japanese sample sites have been much less dramatic so the images I liked may well have been the photographer involved and the software driven post processing. I've seen some really incredible D60 and S2 pictures as well. So no I don't see Foveon as the second coming but for a 3.4MP image it really does capture some fine detail that transcends what I have seen from other 3 MP sensors.

Your second question went into a very detailed analysis of the use of the Sigma software. If you will please re read what I originally said:
and at same time seemingly that
require LESS post processing to get there.
If the auto settings work wel to generate decent
jpgs then it MAY save time getting to a decent picture
The key word here is MAY. While I agree one can get decent jpgs from the other DSLRs the consensus always seems to be to shoot RAW if you want a great quality jpg. So my statement here was driven to those who shoot RAW and manually convert to JPG based upon the advise of many who own the oher DSLRs. Obviously if you shoot in JPG and it comes out of camera NOT needing ANY post processing then the time savings is in shooting jpg in the other camera. Auto levels/auto color, etc does NOT always work well in Photoshop. My experience has been auto levels and auto color work somewhat incosistly using my Pro70 files. So my point here was if the SD9 software does a decent job of converting RAW images via AUTO settings and does them in a batch mode, then it MAY ( again said MAY ) be a time savings to getting RAW converted jpgs that require little if any further post processing. But MANY variables here. If the Sigma software is slow, etc then obviously no savings. And the RAW file is still there for manual conversion should the user desire. Only works however if the Auto mode works more consistently than the Auto mode in Photoshop. If not then one is back to the slower RAW to JPG conversion process.

Is sort of a moot point though as none of this comes without some time price. And for now based upon what I have seen I'll NOT be buying an SD9 for several reasons. But I do see some potential perks to the camera especially if the price drops to $1499 USD later in the year. I really never meant for my remarks you commented on to be taken to such depth, and any time I say MAY in caps it means a very strong doubting Thomas MAY on my part. Hope I helped clarify things.. my orig post was meant to say simply if the auto settings does a good job of batch processing the RAW images without need for further refinement ( with exception of mission critical work ) it MAY be faster than similar processes done with current DSLR RAW to JPG conversion. Course the other cameras have the option I'd be using JPG fine modes :)
 
Yup.. engineers do seem to LOVE PROCESSES lol Sorry but I am now finally laughing at this incredible thread! Thanks Michael for getting me in the middle of it haha Now just hope my engineer friends at work dont start calling me the artist lol and to think al this got started simply because I stated something as simple as fluidity and warmth lol Oh my. I will be more careful in the future.. errr I think :)
And were it not for the artists we may have never had the idea of
producing a machine that could make pictures.

We wouldn't have had pictures as a starting point.

--
bob
http://www.pbase.com/bobtrips
New Gallery - Nat (Spirit) Festival in Myanmar
pictures from Thailand, Myanmar(Burma), and Nepal
--
John
 
Galileo had a little problem with religion but his faith never wavered ( lil thing called the Inquisition just didnt like his views on the universe copied directly from Copernicus ), and as far as I know Einstein did have faith. Not sure he used it to drive his theories , but froom what I have read about him nothing suggests he did not beleive in something beyond the physical world. I;ll be sure to ask him in the next life to see if he did or not lol

This is a direct quote from Einstein ....Albert Einstein write the following:

But science can only be created by those who are thoroughly imbued with the aspiration toward truth and understanding. This source of feeling, however, springs from the sphere of religion. To this there also belongs the faith in the possibility that the regulations valid for the world of existence are rational, that is, comprehensible to reason. I cannot conceive of a genuine scientist without that profound faith. The situation may be expressed by an image: science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.

Full text is here: http://www.sacred-texts.com/aor/einstein/einsci.htm

There's a ton of interesting stuff written about Einstein and his views on religion.. he was a most candid character on the subject nad at times deeper than we care to imagine. I think he had his own views but never does he say Faith doesn't exist :)

And PS I have my own faith but faith does not drive my scientificviewpoints! But I do love the famous Einstein quote above about the inter relationships between science and religion even though quite often the two are seemingly at opposite ends of the spectrum!
A scientist who believes in faith is someone building walls in
their mind to prevent themselves having to face some harsh truths...
The camera, I see now, even before Photoshop touches the image,
can be a tool for creating the image the photographer has in
formed in his imagination

Exactly Tim :) Well said... some of us love making the camera "see"
what our minds see which is not always the same as our eyes see!
Mind you I'm not espteric in what I shoot and very often just take
a scenic shot of what lies before me. But often truly great,
spectacular photographs are simply technically lacking and that's
ok. I think some of us here who have felt things in some of the SD9
samples are merely expressing that from a "feel" viewpoint and not
trying to attack it from a technical aspect. Is like trying to
explain love to another person.. until you feel it you can't
describe it. Not everything, even in the digital world, is about
0's and 1's. Just at times here it seems some go really far trying
to explain things as a matter of pure fact and as a scientist who
also believes in Faith, someitmes fact alone is simply not
enough! There is room here for all to enjoy, and when someone
doesn't bring us joy we can choose not to read their comments. I've
said all along thus far ( I am not a foveonatic ) that in it's
element the SD9 seems capable of making pictures with breathtaking
color and depth and realism. At it's worst it seems really bad thus
far but hey this is gen 1 rev 0.9 we are talking about! Just needs
time and patience! :)
Final thought: What is the name of this forum? DP Review. That
stands for Digital Photography Review unless I'm somehow
pathetically mistaken. Am I wrong to think that if the intention of
this forum was to foster ONLY technical discussion that it might
have been better named, Digital Camera Review??
Actually, BobTrips kind of managed to make me look at this issue
differently. I am ready to give up a little ground on this subject.

The camera, I see now, even before Photoshop touches the image,
can be a tool for creating the image the photographer has in
formed in his imagination.

Other times it is merely a tool try to capture the image as the human
eye would see it.

Both perspectives are valid in this forum, I guess. With the idea
that we are looking at the "tools" Sigma has to offer, for either
of these 2 things above.

Part of the problem may be that you just stepped into here at the
wrong time. There are all sorts of "you anti-Foveon troll !!"
accusations flying around, and, well ... everybody is kind of on
edge in here, a tiny, tiny bit.
 
As I understood it, Einstein's comments on God etc have been taken to refer to a rather abstract idea of nature as god rather than a personal faith. But I'm a little fuzzy on the details so I could have this all wrong...
This is a direct quote from Einstein ....Albert Einstein write the
following:

But science can only be created by those who are thoroughly imbued
with the aspiration toward truth and understanding. This source of
feeling, however, springs from the sphere of religion. To this
there also belongs the faith in the possibility that the
regulations valid for the world of existence are rational, that is,
comprehensible to reason. I cannot conceive of a genuine scientist
without that profound faith. The situation may be expressed by an
image: science without religion is lame, religion without science
is blind.

Full text is here: http://www.sacred-texts.com/aor/einstein/einsci.htm

There's a ton of interesting stuff written about Einstein and his
views on religion.. he was a most candid character on the subject
nad at times deeper than we care to imagine. I think he had his own
views but never does he say Faith doesn't exist :)

And PS I have my own faith but faith does not drive my
scientificviewpoints! But I do love the famous Einstein quote above
about the inter relationships between science and religion even
though quite often the two are seemingly at opposite ends of the
spectrum!
A scientist who believes in faith is someone building walls in
their mind to prevent themselves having to face some harsh truths...
The camera, I see now, even before Photoshop touches the image,
can be a tool for creating the image the photographer has in
formed in his imagination

Exactly Tim :) Well said... some of us love making the camera "see"
what our minds see which is not always the same as our eyes see!
Mind you I'm not espteric in what I shoot and very often just take
a scenic shot of what lies before me. But often truly great,
spectacular photographs are simply technically lacking and that's
ok. I think some of us here who have felt things in some of the SD9
samples are merely expressing that from a "feel" viewpoint and not
trying to attack it from a technical aspect. Is like trying to
explain love to another person.. until you feel it you can't
describe it. Not everything, even in the digital world, is about
0's and 1's. Just at times here it seems some go really far trying
to explain things as a matter of pure fact and as a scientist who
also believes in Faith, someitmes fact alone is simply not
enough! There is room here for all to enjoy, and when someone
doesn't bring us joy we can choose not to read their comments. I've
said all along thus far ( I am not a foveonatic ) that in it's
element the SD9 seems capable of making pictures with breathtaking
color and depth and realism. At it's worst it seems really bad thus
far but hey this is gen 1 rev 0.9 we are talking about! Just needs
time and patience! :)
Final thought: What is the name of this forum? DP Review. That
stands for Digital Photography Review unless I'm somehow
pathetically mistaken. Am I wrong to think that if the intention of
this forum was to foster ONLY technical discussion that it might
have been better named, Digital Camera Review??
Actually, BobTrips kind of managed to make me look at this issue
differently. I am ready to give up a little ground on this subject.

The camera, I see now, even before Photoshop touches the image,
can be a tool for creating the image the photographer has in
formed in his imagination.

Other times it is merely a tool try to capture the image as the human
eye would see it.

Both perspectives are valid in this forum, I guess. With the idea
that we are looking at the "tools" Sigma has to offer, for either
of these 2 things above.

Part of the problem may be that you just stepped into here at the
wrong time. There are all sorts of "you anti-Foveon troll !!"
accusations flying around, and, well ... everybody is kind of on
edge in here, a tiny, tiny bit.
 
On all versus some pipctures, the samples Phil published and the
model pictures on the German website to my eyes had a lot of color
depth to them. [...] I've
seen some really incredible D60 and S2 pictures as well.
This goes back to my old theme of "good enough" vs. better. Certainly, there is a large class of photographs where the SD-9 is good enough. However, there is still a dearth of comparable side-by-side shots to see in which classes it might be better. Not to mention how to account for the processing & effort (& price?) differences.
don't see Foveon as the second coming but for a 3.4MP image it
really does capture some fine detail that transcends what I have
seen from other 3 MP sensors.
But is it the world's best sub-4 MP camera or a slightly inferior 10 MP camera ;-)
The key word here is MAY.
Well, you also said "decent" and JPG and not "excellent" and TIFF, so that's why I mainly was addressing the more common cases.
Auto levels/auto color, etc does NOT always work well in Photoshop.
No it doesn't. But I'm not sure that "auto" works any better in the Sigma software. With only a few samples to play with, it's hard to tell. And it seems like the SD-9 images that have impressed you most may have had more done to them.
If the Sigma software is slow, etc then obviously no savings.
The reported times ( 5s on a P4 1800 w/gobs of memory, ~ 20s on a PIII 500 w/modest memory) are not slow. Of course, you can't have an obsolete OS like Win 95 or NT.
it MAY be faster than similar processes done with
current DSLR RAW to JPG conversion.
I've wondered if this competition will inspire the other camera makers to improve their RAW software. Or they may decide to punt and not compete with Adobe. It does seem like that a lot more attention is going to be paid to RAW workflows in the near future.

--
Erik
 
No it doesn't. But I'm not sure that "auto" works any better in the
Sigma software. With only a few samples to play with, it's hard to
tell. And it seems like the SD-9 images that have impressed you
most may have had more done to them.
The auto button makes some of the night shots I tried come out worse.
The reported times ( 5s on a P4 1800 w/gobs of memory, ~ 20s on a
PIII 500 w/modest memory) are not slow. Of course, you can't have
an obsolete OS like Win 95 or NT.
Hah! That software won't even INSTALL on Win95 :-).
  • kc
 
"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it." [From a letter Einstein wrote in English, dated 24 March 1954. It is included in Albert Einstein: The Human Side, edited by Helen Dukas and Banesh Hoffman, published by Princeton University Press.

Not many people in the public eye will speak openly about their Atheism. It is not too popular, especially in "One Nation Under God".

Peter
As I understood it, Einstein's comments on God etc have been taken
to refer to a rather abstract idea of nature as god rather than a
personal faith. But I'm a little fuzzy on the details so I could
have this all wrong...
 
"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious
convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not
believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have
expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called
religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of
the world so far as our science can reveal it." [From a letter
Einstein wrote in English, dated 24 March 1954. It is included in
Albert Einstein: The Human Side, edited by Helen Dukas and Banesh
Hoffman, published by Princeton University Press.

Not many people in the public eye will speak openly about their
Atheism. It is not too popular, especially in "One Nation Under
God".

Peter
After all, an atheist is a believer. An atheist is someone who believes that there is NOT a god.

It's fairly common to discover that the brightest among us (the most decorated scientists for example) are agnostic. They recognize that there is neither data in support a supreme being nor data against it. It's just one of those unanswerable questions (with the techniques we have at the moment).

(Bet this little discussion will drive jacques up the wall. Let's talk about truth and beauty next and really get his knickers in a knot.)

--
bob
http://www.pbase.com/bobtrips
New Gallery - Nat (Spirit) Festival in Myanmar
pictures from Thailand, Myanmar(Burma), and Nepal
 
Actually, this is perhaps the only thing you've said so far that
really makes me want to argue with you because it's elitist
nonsense. Photography is like any other artistic endeavour: it is a
fusion of craft and vision.
IMHO you are in actual agreement with what Michael said. I agree with you that photography takes both skill (craft) and artistic talent (vision), but I think Michael is trying to say the tecno-geeks (myself included in this one) can learn all the skills we want, but artistic talent is a much harder area to develop.

--
jc
Sony F707
http://www.reefkeepers.org/gallery/f707
http://www.reeftec.com/gallery
 
"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious
convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not
believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have
expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called
religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of
the world so far as our science can reveal it." [From a letter
Einstein wrote in English, dated 24 March 1954. It is included in
Albert Einstein: The Human Side, edited by Helen Dukas and Banesh
Hoffman, published by Princeton University Press.

Not many people in the public eye will speak openly about their
Atheism. It is not too popular, especially in "One Nation Under
God".

Peter
Nothing wrong with that Peter, my son is an athesist, I'm Roman Catholic
shouldn't make any difference should it?
As I understood it, Einstein's comments on God etc have been taken
to refer to a rather abstract idea of nature as god rather than a
personal faith. But I'm a little fuzzy on the details so I could
have this all wrong...
--
Regards,
Gavin
Canon Pro90IS, B-300 Canon Pro 70
 
There are a lot of works on Einsteins "religion" or lack thereof, and Albert as always was fairly hard to follow at times. Atheist groups have clung to thses words as proof he did not believe. Other groups has decided his use of "personal God" to being he did not believe in a single authoratitive maker or supreme being but that his " religion " was somewhat alternative. I would read it as he was closer to atheist as well but at same time does not mean he was a man without "faith". Faith does not have to be defined as the trraditional Jesus/God depiction!
Not many people in the public eye will speak openly about their
Atheism. It is not too popular, especially in "One Nation Under
God".

Peter
As I understood it, Einstein's comments on God etc have been taken
to refer to a rather abstract idea of nature as god rather than a
personal faith. But I'm a little fuzzy on the details so I could
have this all wrong...
 
Jimmy Chen wrote:

IMHO you are in actual agreement with what Michael said. I agree
with you that photography takes both skill (craft) and artistic
talent (vision), but I think Michael is trying to say the
tecno-geeks (myself included in this one) can learn all the skills
we want, but artistic talent is a much harder area to develop.
It's the same for tecno talent i think, it all depends on
the person involved.
Sometimes an artist has to be a "scientist" and a scientist
has to be an "artist" to accomplish something.
Now put the two of them together on something of
mutual interest and you can get some neat results.

Opposites attract?

Rgds
 
Yup.. engineers do seem to LOVE PROCESSES lol Sorry but I am now
finally laughing at this incredible thread! Thanks Michael for
getting me in the middle of it haha Now just hope my engineer
friends at work dont start calling me the artist lol and to think
al this got started simply because I stated something as simple as
fluidity and warmth lol Oh my. I will be more careful in the
future.. errr I think :)
Naaa, just go for it; there's room and a need for both types of discussion. You are the perfect Rennaisance Man as far as digital photography goes, the creative engineer!

--
Michael OHara / WetPlanet / Honolulu
http://www.DiveSlates.com
 

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