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Advanced discussion on photographing in low light with flash
- Thread starter Chromobotia Macracanthus
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Chromobotia Macracanthus
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I use a D700 and 3 fast primes with an SB900
Chromobotia Macracanthus
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Basically I am talking about a situation where it is pretty much dark, not even low light.
Obviously if it was just low light but your own eyes can generally still see everyone, you would up your ISO a good bit and use a slower shutter like 1/60 and around so that ambient light registers in the same way your own eyes see the scene.
My main point is I don't want to photograph people dancing in near darkness, by filling the room with light. I'd rather people looking at their photos remember it was dark, and I lit just them? I hope i'm making sense hard to explain maybe. Thanks and I welcome more people contributing here.
Obviously if it was just low light but your own eyes can generally still see everyone, you would up your ISO a good bit and use a slower shutter like 1/60 and around so that ambient light registers in the same way your own eyes see the scene.
My main point is I don't want to photograph people dancing in near darkness, by filling the room with light. I'd rather people looking at their photos remember it was dark, and I lit just them? I hope i'm making sense hard to explain maybe. Thanks and I welcome more people contributing here.
There are several ways to attack this each with different results, you have to choose what works right for you.
Bouncing is going to light up a much larger area (and make it look less like a dark club)
Shooting direct at the subject is mostly only going to light the people right in front of the camera (light will fall off rapidly behind them and not really light much of the people 20 ft away if it's only giving enough light for those 4 ft in front of the camera)
Shooting direct causes harsher shadows. A diffuser such as the StoFen (and a million other knock offs) will slightly diffuse the light not making it as harsh. Using this, if you angle up at 45 degrees, it really isn't bouncing much because the strobe will cut off once the stubjects (which are much closer) are lit properly, long before you get enough bounce to light the background. But putting it at 45 degrees does a few things... 1) it gets the light source just a touch higher, which is good, 2) the light coming through the side of the defuser is even more diffuse, 3) it give just a touch of bounce to bring up the background just a touch without loosing the dark atmosphere.
Another option that some people have gone to, is using a ring flash so that the light is coming from around the lens. This reduces harsh shadows (as all the shadows would be behind the subject.) Though with this you may be limited to the lenses that would accept a ring flash.
With all of these I would use high ISO, low aperture, and slightly dragged shutter to let as much ambient light in as possible/desired. I would also attempt to gel the flash appropriate to the scene. I don't want to gel the strobe red to match the red lights in the background (because then when I white balance the background lights would also be white/neutral) but If I see that everything is tungsten lit, I might use a CTO gel to warm up the faces. Or if I see everything is LED lit, then I might even try to correct flash with a slightly blue gel, again not to eliminate the color cast but to make the balance most pleasing.
More advanced tactic
Have an assistant carry a flash wirelessly synced to your camera on a pole. Have them light the subject from an angle off camera. This way the light is really only lighting the subject, but the angle is much more flattering than from directly on camera. Obviously the assistant would need to have some basic background in lighting so as to know what angle to light from for a pleasing result.
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~K
Bouncing is going to light up a much larger area (and make it look less like a dark club)
Shooting direct at the subject is mostly only going to light the people right in front of the camera (light will fall off rapidly behind them and not really light much of the people 20 ft away if it's only giving enough light for those 4 ft in front of the camera)
Shooting direct causes harsher shadows. A diffuser such as the StoFen (and a million other knock offs) will slightly diffuse the light not making it as harsh. Using this, if you angle up at 45 degrees, it really isn't bouncing much because the strobe will cut off once the stubjects (which are much closer) are lit properly, long before you get enough bounce to light the background. But putting it at 45 degrees does a few things... 1) it gets the light source just a touch higher, which is good, 2) the light coming through the side of the defuser is even more diffuse, 3) it give just a touch of bounce to bring up the background just a touch without loosing the dark atmosphere.
Another option that some people have gone to, is using a ring flash so that the light is coming from around the lens. This reduces harsh shadows (as all the shadows would be behind the subject.) Though with this you may be limited to the lenses that would accept a ring flash.
With all of these I would use high ISO, low aperture, and slightly dragged shutter to let as much ambient light in as possible/desired. I would also attempt to gel the flash appropriate to the scene. I don't want to gel the strobe red to match the red lights in the background (because then when I white balance the background lights would also be white/neutral) but If I see that everything is tungsten lit, I might use a CTO gel to warm up the faces. Or if I see everything is LED lit, then I might even try to correct flash with a slightly blue gel, again not to eliminate the color cast but to make the balance most pleasing.
More advanced tactic
Have an assistant carry a flash wirelessly synced to your camera on a pole. Have them light the subject from an angle off camera. This way the light is really only lighting the subject, but the angle is much more flattering than from directly on camera. Obviously the assistant would need to have some basic background in lighting so as to know what angle to light from for a pleasing result.
--
~K
VividExposures
Leading Member
You should set your aperture to get the dof you want, set the shutter speed to control camera shake and subject motion blur, then play with the iso to get the correct ambient exposure. Be careful with exposure compensation on the camera body. Now start introducing the flash with w/e modifiers you have available, while playing with the fec to taste (on the sb900). Use ttl for this type of indoor shooting. Might as well decide on a wb as well. With fixed settings like this, you will end up with consistent results that will make pp more efficient. This is a general strategy I use and it works pretty well. The look you describe is exactly what I get when using a gary fong lightsphere with the chrome dome attachment. I never use it because I don't like that look.
Please re-read the first line of my post... "There are several ways to attack this each with different results, you have to choose what works right for you."
I, personally, would try to get some ambient lighting, if OP wishes the background to be pitch black, they can ignore that part of the recommendation. I intentionally broke it down into pieces so that they could pick-and-choose and mix-and-match.
There are several other aspects such as using a diffuser, having an assistant hold torch or using a ring flash that will still work for the OP whether or not they decide to go High ISO/drag shutter or not depending on how much, if any, ambient light they want.
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~K
I, personally, would try to get some ambient lighting, if OP wishes the background to be pitch black, they can ignore that part of the recommendation. I intentionally broke it down into pieces so that they could pick-and-choose and mix-and-match.
There are several other aspects such as using a diffuser, having an assistant hold torch or using a ring flash that will still work for the OP whether or not they decide to go High ISO/drag shutter or not depending on how much, if any, ambient light they want.
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~K
Well then why did you say "With all of these..." This implies that with all your above suggestions, use high ISO and drag the shutter.
Sorry, but I take things quite literally
kb2zuz wrote:
"With all of these I would use high ISO, low aperture, and slightly dragged shutter to let as much ambient light in as possible/desired."
-Daniel
Sorry, but I take things quite literally
kb2zuz wrote:
"With all of these I would use high ISO, low aperture, and slightly dragged shutter to let as much ambient light in as possible/desired."
--
-Daniel
Chromobotia Macracanthus
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Some good points, although people keep speaking about dragging the shutter etc and hi iso. I don't see the point. Image it's nearly so dark you can't see so well. There is no ambient light...your aims are just to light up a subject and show that it was dark in that club
Chromobotia Macracanthus
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It's almost pitch dark. There is little or no ambient light so capturing it makes no sense / you don't want to. The way I see it, no point in having an ISO that's very high since you have only two objectives
1) Light up a subject
2) Keep the room dark (as it was in real life)
Thoughts?
1) Light up a subject
2) Keep the room dark (as it was in real life)
Thoughts?
Chromobotia Macracanthus
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Thanks, I want to thank everyone so far, I appreciate all your thoughts. It's an easy subject to dabble in but a hard one to master. In time! I just love being out with the camera. It's a pleasure.
You left out the "I would" that immediately followed "With all of these..." which as far as I can infer means "in such a situation my choice is likely to be" I did not foresee someone interpreting that as meaning "you should" much less "you must" as you seem to be implying, particularly because those are not literal interpretations of what I said. The conditional "would" preceded by the first person "I" should have been sufficient to infer that one did not have to follow that, I further expounded on the topic by saying that it would increase the exposure of the ambient light, allowing anyone reading it to determine for themselves if that was the desired effect.
That said, going to your previous suggestion of shortening the shutter speed on a bounce flash... Well here's the problem with your recommendation... bouncing off the ceiling will spread the light all over the room, lighting up much more than the subject. Not only is it lighting up the room, it's over powering the ambient light and making it look like someone turned on a big bright light on the ceiling... this has nothing to do with what a dark club looks or feels like. A direct flash is going to fall off according to the inverse square. Bouncing is going to have a 10 ft wide area on the ceiling lighting the whole room, and now the difference distance from the ceiling to the subject and ceiling to background isn't nearly as dramatic as it was with a direct flash, meaning much less fall off, meaning a much brighter background. If you've worked at all in creating such scenes... making a scene look "dark" doesn't mean having minimal light, it means selecting where the light is coming from. Using my recommendation you could allow more ambient light in and have it "feel" like a dark club because the light is not every where, just in selected pockets. Bouncing will actually make the room loose it's feel much more than using direct or diffused flash mixed with drag shutter and high ISO. You did mention that there may be issues with bounce, but you only stated that a high ceiling could eat up battery power. I saw nothing in there literally or figuratively that suggested avoiding bounce because it would cause an image that was shot in a high school gym with the lights on.
~K
That said, going to your previous suggestion of shortening the shutter speed on a bounce flash... Well here's the problem with your recommendation... bouncing off the ceiling will spread the light all over the room, lighting up much more than the subject. Not only is it lighting up the room, it's over powering the ambient light and making it look like someone turned on a big bright light on the ceiling... this has nothing to do with what a dark club looks or feels like. A direct flash is going to fall off according to the inverse square. Bouncing is going to have a 10 ft wide area on the ceiling lighting the whole room, and now the difference distance from the ceiling to the subject and ceiling to background isn't nearly as dramatic as it was with a direct flash, meaning much less fall off, meaning a much brighter background. If you've worked at all in creating such scenes... making a scene look "dark" doesn't mean having minimal light, it means selecting where the light is coming from. Using my recommendation you could allow more ambient light in and have it "feel" like a dark club because the light is not every where, just in selected pockets. Bouncing will actually make the room loose it's feel much more than using direct or diffused flash mixed with drag shutter and high ISO. You did mention that there may be issues with bounce, but you only stated that a high ceiling could eat up battery power. I saw nothing in there literally or figuratively that suggested avoiding bounce because it would cause an image that was shot in a high school gym with the lights on.
--Well then why did you say "With all of these..." This implies that with all your above suggestions, use high ISO and drag the shutter.
Sorry, but I take things quite literally
kb2zuz wrote:
"With all of these I would use high ISO, low aperture, and slightly dragged shutter to let as much ambient light in as possible/desired."
--
-Daniel
~K
Chromobotia Macracanthus
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Thanks. Surely if its totally dark though, what I after is better than lighting the whole place up like its day time and making it look fake?
Holy smokes! Nice verbose reply, you should work at Wikipedia. I hope you feel better now The OP clearly stated he wanted less ambient light, but almost all your suggestions suggest otherwise. Your post seem to indicate you are trying to impose YOUR preference, which was that you prefer more ambient light. Well that is fine, but I and the others are trying to help him with HIS objective.
Actually, I suggested he should use a flash modifier like a Demb or make his own. Otherwise, sure the OP can spend more money on more gear.
Since you wrote A LOT of material, obviously the OP should just stick with your suggestions LOL!
-Daniel
The OP clearly stated he wanted less ambient light, but almost all your suggestions suggest otherwise. Your post seem to indicate you are trying to impose YOUR preference, which was that you prefer more ambient light. Well that is fine, but I and the others are trying to help him with HIS objective.Actually, I suggested he should use a flash modifier like a Demb or make his own. Otherwise, sure the OP can spend more money on more gear.
Since you wrote A LOT of material, obviously the OP should just stick with your suggestions LOL!
--You left out the "I would" that immediately followed "With all of these..." which as far as I can infer means "in such a situation my choice is likely to be" I did not foresee someone interpreting that as meaning "you should" much less "you must" as you seem to be implying, particularly because those are not literal interpretations of what I said. The conditional "would" preceded by the first person "I" should have been sufficient to infer that one did not have to follow that, I further expounded on the topic by saying that it would increase the exposure of the ambient light, allowing anyone reading it to determine for themselves if that was the desired effect.
That said, going to your previous suggestion of shortening the shutter speed on a bounce flash... Well here's the problem with your recommendation... bouncing off the ceiling will spread the light all over the room, lighting up much more than the subject. Not only is it lighting up the room, it's over powering the ambient light and making it look like someone turned on a big bright light on the ceiling... this has nothing to do with what a dark club looks or feels like. A direct flash is going to fall off according to the inverse square. Bouncing is going to have a 10 ft wide area on the ceiling lighting the whole room, and now the difference distance from the ceiling to the subject and ceiling to background isn't nearly as dramatic as it was with a direct flash, meaning much less fall off, meaning a much brighter background. If you've worked at all in creating such scenes... making a scene look "dark" doesn't mean having minimal light, it means selecting where the light is coming from. Using my recommendation you could allow more ambient light in and have it "feel" like a dark club because the light is not every where, just in selected pockets. Bouncing will actually make the room loose it's feel much more than using direct or diffused flash mixed with drag shutter and high ISO. You did mention that there may be issues with bounce, but you only stated that a high ceiling could eat up battery power. I saw nothing in there literally or figuratively that suggested avoiding bounce because it would cause an image that was shot in a high school gym with the lights on.
--Well then why did you say "With all of these..." This implies that with all your above suggestions, use high ISO and drag the shutter.
Sorry, but I take things quite literally
kb2zuz wrote:
"With all of these I would use high ISO, low aperture, and slightly dragged shutter to let as much ambient light in as possible/desired."
--
-Daniel
~K
-Daniel
F
f8BeThereToo
Guest
Sample images people! LOL
I'm a photographer; I need some visuals showing the various suggestions...
I'm a photographer; I need some visuals showing the various suggestions...
slowhands214238
Veteran Member
If you intend on shooting lots of frames, boosting the ISO will reduce the work the FLASH and batteries have to do to illuminate the subject(s)... allowing you to shoot more frames / shoot faster (quicker recycle)
Naturally YOU still get to control the overall image by YOUR selection of shutter speed to capture whatever ambient or lack thereof...
Now get creative... long shutter and manually trigger flash multiple times...freezing subject in various positions... or ZOOM the lens while triggering a couple flashes... or ...or...or....
Be creative... get beyond needing sets of How To...operating rules!
Luke Kaven
Veteran Member
Have a look at the work of the great Larry Fink, who uses an off camera flash with a snoot . Classic work. The harshness of the flash, reminiscent of Weegee, is made to work in an artistic context, revealing human activity by punching holes in the darkness.
Or buy a D3s and shoot at ISO12800, push to ISO 40k or so, and learn how to deal with noise artistically.
Or buy a D3s and shoot at ISO12800, push to ISO 40k or so, and learn how to deal with noise artistically.
Cookster670
Leading Member
No on has mentioned dragging the shutter yet ? (forgive me if I missed it)
I do a few of these type of events and use this technique.
I shoot manual at a very slow shutter speed. so typically start at 1/15 and adjust from there to get the right amount of ambient light. I have shot as low as 1/8 which will still freeze dance action when using flash in low light conditions.
You don't need fast glass either...shoot at f5.6-f8
Set to manual
shutter to match desired ambient light.
Flash set to TTL. I use the demb flip-it if there is no bounce surface or I bounce. (or use the demb to bounce AND direct some light toward the subject.
Here is one example i "think" you mean.
the subjects are sharp frozen by the flash, yet you can see the background people, which is exposed by the shutter speed is blurred
This isn't a great photo, but a good example of how at 1/20 I can still freeze action
This was shot at 1/3 to expose the city skyline better. It was handheld so there is some camera shake of the skyline, but the subjects are still sharp
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Nikon D7000. Nikon 50mm 1.8, Tamron 28-75 2.8, Sigma 70-200 2.8 SB900 SB600
'I am a better critic than photographer'
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Nikon D7000. Nikon 50mm 1.8, Tamron 28-75 2.8, Sigma 70-200 2.8 SB900 SB600
'I am a better critic than photographer'
I do a few of these type of events and use this technique.
I shoot manual at a very slow shutter speed. so typically start at 1/15 and adjust from there to get the right amount of ambient light. I have shot as low as 1/8 which will still freeze dance action when using flash in low light conditions.
You don't need fast glass either...shoot at f5.6-f8
Set to manual
shutter to match desired ambient light.
Flash set to TTL. I use the demb flip-it if there is no bounce surface or I bounce. (or use the demb to bounce AND direct some light toward the subject.
Here is one example i "think" you mean.
the subjects are sharp frozen by the flash, yet you can see the background people, which is exposed by the shutter speed is blurred
This isn't a great photo, but a good example of how at 1/20 I can still freeze action
This was shot at 1/3 to expose the city skyline better. It was handheld so there is some camera shake of the skyline, but the subjects are still sharp
--
****************
Nikon D7000. Nikon 50mm 1.8, Tamron 28-75 2.8, Sigma 70-200 2.8 SB900 SB600
'I am a better critic than photographer'
--
****************
Nikon D7000. Nikon 50mm 1.8, Tamron 28-75 2.8, Sigma 70-200 2.8 SB900 SB600
'I am a better critic than photographer'
and more there:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ltregan/sets/72157625451586007/
Select a reasonnable aperture based on DOF (f/4), go to your higest ISO (here 3200) then select shutter speed to expose the background correctly (here 1/25s).
Then bounce the flash up and with a reflector card (hand works...). Select power manually under it looks good.
Your main subject will be lit by the flash, so limited blur. The lights in the background will be static and look ok.
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