D90 + Nissin di866 help !

Hi,

I have just bought the Nissin Di866 flashgun. I notice my in built flash fires no matter how I set it in commander mode. I followed some online video to set-up the camera and flashgun to use it wireless, but I don't want my built in flash to affect the exposure.

my setting in the D90 commander mode
built in flash -- --
Group A TTL 0.0
Group B -- --
Channel 1

setting on flash
-set it to remote (same channel and group - 1 & A)

When I zoom my lens, the flashgun does automatically adjust the zoom range. However, the built in flash fires whenever i press the shutter and of course the flashgun fires as well.

From what I read from internet, the built in flash won't be active if i set it to "--". It doesn't happen to me, it fires every time...

is it normal ? is there a way to deactivate the built in flash and only the wireless flashgun fires?

Cheers

built-in flash will fire in wireless mode. even with nikon's speedlites.

Yes, I hear this is due to CLS sync. The problem may be worked around by using an accessory filter plate for the commander blocking most of the visible light, or by using the dedicated Nikon commander flash unit (expensive), or by using a flash extension cable.

The on-camera flash will ALWAYS fire as this is the wireless trigger that gets your off-camera flash to fire. When you set the on-camera flash to '--', it should not contribute any significant light to the shot (however, it can still be visible on reflective surfaces in the photo).

As others have mentioned, the way to get around this is to get a cable to trigger the flash or you can get a shield which hangs in front of the on-camera flash.

will a Nikon SB-900 flash be triggered by the D90's built-in flash without the built-in flash firing if everything is correctly set up?

ovizii said:

will a Nikon SB-900 flash be triggered by the D90's built-in flash without the built-in flash firing if everything is correctly set up?

Click to expand...

no, built in flash HAS to fire to trigger the remote unit. If you want it to be less visible, you could find some IR filter, which would block the visible "white" light - SB needs only IR part of it.

This is an old post so I am not sure whether there is any real point responding to it but ...

Yes, of course the popup flash has to fire - how else can it communicate with the remote flash? You are quite right though it is only the infrared component of the light that carries the signals.

It's very easy to make a home-made IR filter for the popup flash. The disk material inside a 3.5 inch PC 'floppy' disk makes ideal IR filter material. Just open up the disk and cut a piece about 2cm long by 1cm high then stick this over the popup flash tube with Sellotape.

It works a treat (just tried it) and costs next to nothing. It's got me wondering if I made a piece for a big flashgun whether, if I shot in the dark I might get IR flash photos!!

David

ZorSy said:

ovizii said:

will a Nikon SB-900 flash be triggered by the D90's built-in flash without the built-in flash firing if everything is correctly set up?

Click to expand...

no, built in flash HAS to fire to trigger the remote unit. If you want it to be less visible, you could find some IR filter, which would block the visible "white" light - SB needs only IR part of it.

Click to expand...

ZorSy said:

ovizii said:

will a Nikon SB-900 flash be triggered by the D90's built-in flash without the built-in flash firing if everything is correctly set up?

Click to expand...

no, built in flash HAS to fire to trigger the remote unit. If you want it to be less visible, you could find some IR filter, which would block the visible "white" light - SB needs only IR part of it.

Click to expand...

Please excuse my ignorance but I only started reading up on this subject a few days ago and judging by the hype about CLS I understood its a wireless communication.

REacting to the built-in flash is a "simple" strobe setup so where is hte wireless part of it?

That is what was confusing me...

ovizii said:

ZorSy said:

ovizii said:

will a Nikon SB-900 flash be triggered by the D90's built-in flash without the built-in flash firing if everything is correctly set up?

Click to expand...

no, built in flash HAS to fire to trigger the remote unit. If you want it to be less visible, you could find some IR filter, which would block the visible "white" light - SB needs only IR part of it.

Click to expand...

Please excuse my ignorance but I only started reading up on this subject a few days ago and judging by the hype about CLS I understood its a wireless communication.

REacting to the built-in flash is a "simple" strobe setup so where is hte wireless part of it?

That is what was confusing me...

Click to expand...

OK, here is the quote:

"This is the part of the CLS that actually makes it "creative" as it allows using multiple flash units to unveil your imagination and create all conceivable combinations of lighting (within reason, of course) wirelessly and without hassle. This feature is absolutely brilliant and actually works flawlessly in real life. Where you had to deal with lots of wires and/or calculations before, you can now simply position flash units as you wish and let the system automatically determine appropriate exposure and flash output for all units; if necessary, you can then adjust flash output of all or some of the units—all wirelessly and from the commander speedlight. I believe that this feature shall redefine how photographers perceive and use speedlights—Nikon CLS offers sophisticated flash lighting for the masses.

Advanced wireless lighting can be employed with as little as a Nikon D70/D70s with only one SB–600 unit or as much as a Nikon D2X with multiple SB–800 and/or SB–600 units in up to four groups (Master, A, B and C; note, though, that only SB–800 can serve as master/commander speedlight). If you opt for the latter, the number of flash units in each group is only limited by what is practical. Each group of speedlights can be fully and wirelessly controlled from the Master flash unit—a group can be enabled/disabled and set to a preferred flash mode (i–TTL, Auto Aperture or manual); its flash output can be directly adjusted from the commander strobe, too. Furthermore, the master flash can be set to not fire during the actual exposure and serve as a controller only.

The great news for the D70/D70s owners is that the cameras' inbuilt flash can be used as the commander speedlight to trigger remote flash unit(s)—albeit in a somewhat partial manner. First, the inbuilt flash is used as a commander speedlight only and its light output is insufficient to contribute to the exposure. Second, all remote flash units must be in one group and exposure compensation applies equally to all of them. Although this is quite limiting, being able to use even only one (group of) remote flash unit(s) still allows for a lot of flexibility and creating interesting lighting patterns."

more read here
http://www.olegnovikov.com/technical/nikoncls/cls.shtml

to get the idea, I hope it helps. Since we have had D80/200/90/7000 and SB700/900 but it remains the same...or even better

ZorSy said:

The great news for the D70/D70s owners is that the cameras' inbuilt flash can be used as the commander speedlight to trigger remote flash unit(s)—albeit in a somewhat partial manner. First, the inbuilt flash is used as a commander speedlight only and its light output is insufficient to contribute to the exposure. Second, all remote flash units must be in one group and exposure compensation applies equally to all of them. Although this is quite limiting, being able to use even only one (group of) remote flash unit(s) still allows for a lot of flexibility and creating interesting lighting patterns."

Click to expand...

Great, thanks. The above part is the important part:

if I understand that right the built-in flash acts as commander and is automatically dimmed as not to interfere with its light output, right? So although I see the flash it should not contribute enough light to the composition?
Or does the same not apply to the D90?

Besides why would the D90 allow me to set the built-in flash to "--" which means no flash and then flash? Kinda confusing.

Anyway the most important part of my question is whether this works the same even if I fork out enough cash to buy the Nikon SB-900?

On the site you linked to I find this:

quote:

ZorSy said:

To use your D70/D70s' inbuilt flash as a commander and SB–800/SB–600 unit(s) > as remote strobe(s) you simply need to do the following:

Click to expand...

So the built-in flash can only be used in strobe mode? Not in "real-wireless" mode?

P.S. if I had two Nissin Di866 one remote one used as commander on my D90 would the master one still control the other one via flashes?

N.B. thanks for the links and the quotes it really helped me understand the system a bit better.

ovizii said:

ZorSy said:

The great news for the D70/D70s owners is that the cameras' inbuilt flash can be used as the commander speedlight to trigger remote flash unit(s)—albeit in a somewhat partial manner. First, the inbuilt flash is used as a commander speedlight only and its light output is insufficient to contribute to the exposure. Second, all remote flash units must be in one group and exposure compensation applies equally to all of them. Although this is quite limiting, being able to use even only one (group of) remote flash unit(s) still allows for a lot of flexibility and creating interesting lighting patterns."

Click to expand...

Great, thanks. The above part is the important part:

if I understand that right the built-in flash acts as commander and is automatically dimmed as not to interfere with its light output, right? So although I see the flash it should not contribute enough light to the composition?
Or does the same not apply to the D90?

Besides why would the D90 allow me to set the built-in flash to "--" which means no flash and then flash? Kinda confusing.

Click to expand...

"--" means only command flash (pre-flash), no "real" output when the shutter opens.More like flash and then no-flash sequence. D70 replace with D90, the same. If you want some direct light (acting as if you had one direct and one background/side), either set to power level or full auto instead "--".

ovizii said:

Anyway the most important part of my question is whether this works the same even if I fork out enough cash to buy the Nikon SB-900?

Click to expand...

No, buying only one SB900 would not be enough for CLS. You need more SB's which would be controlled by SB900 inbuilt commander module.

ovizii said:

On the site you linked to I find this:

quote:

ovizii said:

To use your D70/D70s' inbuilt flash as a commander and SB–800/SB–600 unit(s) > as remote strobe(s) you simply need to do the following:

Click to expand...

So the built-in flash can only be used in strobe mode? Not in "real-wireless" mode?

Click to expand...

Note two different terms - "advanced lighting system" and "Creative Lighting System". The first one is somewhat limited and requires more fiddling (like moving the remote flash away to reduce its contribution to total lighting scheme), while with "real" CLS you can reduce flash output from the commander unit (800/900/SU)

ovizii said:

P.S. if I had two Nissin Di866 one remote one used as commander on my D90 would the master one still control the other one via flashes?

Click to expand...

Not familiar with Nissin abilities to act as a true commander unit, but if they claim its a copy of Nikon SU, then it should be able to control the output of each group.

ovizii said:

N.B. thanks for the links and the quotes it really helped me understand the system a bit better.

Click to expand...

ZorSy you're input is invaluable. Makes everything a lot more transparent.

One last question and I'm off :-9

ZorSy said:

Anyway the most important part of my question is whether this works the same > even if I fork out enough cash to buy the Nikon SB-900?

ZorSy said:

No, buying only one SB900 would not be enough for CLS. You need more SB's > > which would be controlled by SB900 inbuilt commander module.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

What I meant is this:

If I use a SB-900 as remote flash and my built-in D90 flash as commander will the setup work the same as right now where I have the Nissin Di866?

The exact purpose of this question is that I'd like to know if the built-in flash will also "control" the SB-900 (remote flash) via preflash? Asking because I might have understood the wireless solution a bit too literally expecting it to work wireless withou any flashing on the commander side

ovizii said:

Besides why would the D90 allow me to set the built-in flash to "--" which means no flash and then flash? Kinda confusing.

So the built-in flash can only be used in strobe mode? Not in "real-wireless" mode?

P.S. if I had two Nissin Di866 one remote one used as commander on my D90 would the master one still control the other one via flashes?

Click to expand...

CLS is really wireless. But it is wireless via light (possibly IR light) pulse communication, not radio. There is the SU-800 commander unit that may trigger remote CLS flashes via IR light only, but it is much more expensive than the floppy-disk over the pop-up flash. There is also one official Nikon accessory for this purpose, SG-31R.

"--" really looks like no flash, but in fact there is a sync pulse during the actual exposure, relatively weak but visible on reflective surfaces.
There are third-party radio-wireless triggers too.

Thanks guys, your feedback was most appreciated. Will do some more tests with my Nissin Di866 now before deciding to keep it or not.

The more I use CLS, the more I am leaning towards radio triggers and receivers. I have purchased an inexpensive set to play with. My reason for this is that the one major weakness is that the remote flash sensors must see the light from the trigger unit, whether it is the D90 onboard flash, the SU-800, or one of the more advanced flashes. Sometimes this is really difficult. I was taking pictures of an orchestra pit. I had my two SB-600s one on each side of the pit. I was in the middle with an old flash with an optical trigger. When I was taking pictures of the kids in the left side of the pit, the optical triggered flash and one of the SB-600s would fire. The flash on the other side of the pit did not receive the optical trigger. When I turned to shoot the kids on the other side, then the one that was flashing quit and the one that wasn't flashing started.

The problem with radio triggers, is that you need to know more about what you are doing. But once you learn it, you can be quite effective.

Or maybe, I just don't understand CLS enough.
--
As far as possible, without surrender,
be on good terms with all persons.
-- Max Ehrmann

Yes, that is the problem with IR communication, it has to be within the reach. For large areas or open space, RF is the way to do it properly but I do not have a need for such. I just use flash for around the house family stuff. Actually, I think I use flash outdoors more than indoors. When it comer to wireless I use it for something like this:





and it works for me. It doesn't however work on the full sun...

This an old post now but I would like to add the following. I have D70, D90 1 x SB800 and 2 x SB600 and have spent quite a bit of time experimenting with the CLS system. My workflow now consists of an inexpensive radio transmitter and 3 radio receivers. The CLS system using TTL is very inconsistant, you are leaving too much to the auto exposure calculations made in camera. When shooting portrait, fashion style pics or small groups of people the camera rarely takes 2 pics on auto with the same exposure settings. The camera is trying to illuminate the subjects for its matrix calculated best exposure and doesn't take into account the artistic nature of the scene. Its possible to add and subtract exposure compensation amounts via the commander system but each shot will still produce variations. Nothing wrong with the CLS, works fine but aims to produce full brightly lit subjects and backgrounds every time.

As commented by others the CLS preflashes from camera should not interfere with or add to the overall lighting but the remote units must be in view of the camera to work correctly. Using soft boxes and brollies sometimes makes this difficult.

I prefer now to set up my lighting and reflectors, take sample shots and set the camera shutter speed for my required ambient lighting, choose my aperture, ISO and set each of the flash units on manual as required. I use the histogram and my eye to select the scene and exposure then shoot away knowing each shot will have the same consistant amount of light.

Downside is that changes have to be made on the speed lights and if elevated in brollies this can slow things down, if using the CLS on manual without radio tx using my SB800 on camera in Commander mode I can make manual adjustments to the remote speedlights from camera. This works well if there are no obstructions to the remotes and I also use this frequently but prefer the radios as I can move about the subjects confident the flashes will always fire.

A long post and most who use the CLS will arrive at something similar with time! The pic below is a sample of everything on 'manual'





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