I'm just saying the same thing as Walt... Why the sarcasm for me and not for him?
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We do have a choice: Sony DSLT or canikontax DSLR
- Thread starter mike_2008
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Cause here, now, you posted it, not him. Why the rhetorical question Mike?
It seems that you are so sure of your point of view that you automatically reject anyone saying that you might not be right and that Sony may pick other path than just pure EVF-only cameras ever since now on. A little bit of humility please, and understand that huge part, if not the majority (as SAR pools show) of users wouldn't welcome EVF-only A700 successor with open arms as you would. Hybrid viewfinder ( enforced ) or the dual-release would be by far more interesting to those people.
Cause as it was pointed out - EVF is amazing stuff for young generation of people playing tamagochi and running with Sony Bloggie around the city. But people earning for their life from photography and spending hours in front of screens during post-processing won't be glad from pure EVF ever. Especially if they used to use old pentaprism cameras (new pentaprism DSLRs in most cases are just toys comparing to what there used to be). If the advantages brought by such camera will be good enough they gonna buy it anyway, at least: I would for one, but I won't be as happy as I'd be from the OVF version, and given a choice I'd always go for OVF (as it's now with A55vsA580 to compare).
So as you said:
Nope, not gonna happen. There's no reason to make such choice. I'll sit here and wait how the situation goes. You go ahead and enjoy yourself discussing not-existing stuff in belief Sony just have told you everything about their future.
Because you've taken an aggressive and confrontational tone in this thread, and I genuinely wonder why, when I'm not saying anything that other's haven't said before, albeit perhaps with a little more clarity.
I have not expressed my personal opinion on whether the SLT-strategy that Sony has adopted will be successful or not. I certainly can see many problems with it and am not evangelical about SLT. The A55 is pretty good, but not perfect. The interesting thing in the recent messages from sony is that they have finally been very explicit about the fact that simply copying a traditional DSLR canikon-like approach was not working for them, and therefore they'll be taking an SLT strategy as it offers hope of changing the market place. This is valuable, actionable information that radically alters what may people here may think about their photographic future with Sony. I agree, many people hate the idea of the SLT, which is why the comments from sony are so important, and why we need to have a discussion about the implications of these comments.
We have discussed before in this thread about hybrid viewfinders. I remain convinced that it is an unworkable and fundamentally undesirable solution. Much better to get EVF's optimised with lag short anough that it does not affect shooting. If that technological challenge cannot be met sony are screwed imo.
The point is that sony are not going to be offering a choice. Good or bad they are aligning on a pure DSLT future. This is terribly high risk, because if they don't solve the technological issues with EVF lag then they will never be more than a niche player. If I was forced to guess I would say there is no way they would take such a risk without being pretty darn sure that the EVF issues could be sorted. They seem very confident in the recent communications that the A77 would be a real step forward, so one can only imagine that they have resolved the EVF issues. We will see. The point is though that they are aligning on a DSLT-only future. Like it or not.
I'm listening to them and thinking, and discussing. It is abundantly clear that they want to change the DSLR landscape and think that DSLT is the ticket to do just that. Time will tell if they are successful. I really do think it's important for people here to understand the profound implications of what sony are telling us... This is a really huge change in strategy for a large camera company.
Mike Fewster
Forum Pro
I wrote something like this about 18months ago and was roundly attacked. Time to revisit it. The real issue is the inherent design problem of the APS-C format. APS-C format was a design compromise at the time when digital was just coming in and sensors were very expensive. To woo film camera owners with expensive lens collections over to digital, the APS-C format was born. It was always a compromise that meant cameras had to be designed with much bigger mounts than they needed to accomodate FF lenses, even though they threw away a large part of the image information they collected. More efficient Dx lenses were developed that only gave images on the smaller sensor. However these lenses still had to be made bigger than necessary for the APSC mount standard. As digital grew, the time would eventually come where the inefficiency of the APS-C mount size would become obvious and it would be challenged by smaller cameras. Note, I am talking about the size of the lens mount, not the size of the APS-C sensor. As cameras like the nEX have made obvious, a very small body is reall all that is needed for an APS-C size sensor.
The time has come. APS-C will become the domain of smaller bodied cameras and the pentaprism is also likely to go in the interests of size. I think it is size that is driving the evf development, not manufacturers desire for lower costs (I can see no reason why evfs should be significantly lower to manufacture than OVF. oVF is after all, pretty simple technology and has reached a stage of development when it is hard to see any R&D costs involved) I think OVF will continue to prosper but is more logical on the larger bodies that FF sensor/lenses require.
I think this is similar to the thinking that appears to be behind the recent Sony statement.
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Mike Fewster
Adelaide Australia
The time has come. APS-C will become the domain of smaller bodied cameras and the pentaprism is also likely to go in the interests of size. I think it is size that is driving the evf development, not manufacturers desire for lower costs (I can see no reason why evfs should be significantly lower to manufacture than OVF. oVF is after all, pretty simple technology and has reached a stage of development when it is hard to see any R&D costs involved) I think OVF will continue to prosper but is more logical on the larger bodies that FF sensor/lenses require.
I think this is similar to the thinking that appears to be behind the recent Sony statement.
--
Mike Fewster
Adelaide Australia
Mike Fewster
Forum Pro
I wrote something like this about 18months ago and was roundly attacked. Time to revisit it. The real issue is the inherent design problem of the APS-C format. APS-C format was a design compromise at the time when digital was just coming in and sensors were very expensive. To woo film camera owners with expensive lens collections over to digital, the APS-C format was born. It was always a compromise that meant cameras had to be designed with much bigger mounts than they needed to accomodate FF lenses, even though they threw away a large part of the image information they collected. More efficient Dx lenses were developed that only gave images on the smaller sensor. However these lenses still had to be made bigger than necessary for the APSC mount standard. As digital grew, the time would eventually come where the inefficiency of the APS-C mount size would become obvious and it would be challenged by smaller cameras. Note, I am talking about the size of the lens mount, not the size of the APS-C sensor. As cameras like the nEX have made obvious, a very small body is reall all that is needed for an APS-C size sensor.
The time has come. APS-C will become the domain of smaller bodied cameras and the pentaprism is also likely to go in the interests of size. I think it is size that is driving the evf development, not manufacturers desire for lower costs (I can see no reason why evfs should be significantly lower to manufacture than OVF. oVF is after all, pretty simple technology and has reached a stage of development when it is hard to see any R&D costs involved) I think OVF will continue to prosper but is more logical on the larger bodies that FF sensor/lenses require.
I think this is similar to the thinking that appears to be behind the recent Sony statement.
--
Mike Fewster
Adelaide Australia
The time has come. APS-C will become the domain of smaller bodied cameras and the pentaprism is also likely to go in the interests of size. I think it is size that is driving the evf development, not manufacturers desire for lower costs (I can see no reason why evfs should be significantly lower to manufacture than OVF. oVF is after all, pretty simple technology and has reached a stage of development when it is hard to see any R&D costs involved) I think OVF will continue to prosper but is more logical on the larger bodies that FF sensor/lenses require.
I think this is similar to the thinking that appears to be behind the recent Sony statement.
--
Mike Fewster
Adelaide Australia
digitalshooter
Forum Pro
--
Thanks,
Digitalshooter
Thanks,
Digitalshooter
I think back to the early seventies when Sony was going to change the way everyone recorded and watched movies with pushing betamax. Nothing would make me happier than to stay with OVF cameras until I am planted. At work, being surrounded by those much younger than myself gives me a chance to see what drives this young and fresh ball of energy. I have co-workers that are a NEX camera user and a A55 user to exchange thoughts on our equipment and photographic technique. Perhaps I am like an old dog but I am willing to try the DSLT concept, I just keep thinking "betamax"........
--
'The early bird catches the worm'
--
'The early bird catches the worm'
john175bramley
Forum Enthusiast
Maybe you should be thinking blue-ray.
Gavin 11
Senior Member
Thats rich Mike, but then maybe I'm on the ignore list ;-)
--
“I prefer my Sony A-7xx, to be made out of wood and be available this centaury” ;-)
Corkcampbell
Forum Pro
camera; we could see it coming for some time, especially when the first dSLRs (and P&Ss years ago) began to add video and with the interest of the younger people in video, combined with the journalists' need for one unit that could do video as well as high-quality stills. The Pany GH2 is part of the same evolution. I don't know why many people are so upset, nervous, and scared of it. Read the threads and pay attention to how many people think that an EVF is the end of the world, who have never actually used one.
It can only mean increased possibilities for all of us. I teach media students and they all want this sort of thing; not just some crappy video capability tacked onto a low-end dSLR. I suspect that the next phase (A77) will make a lot of people happy, including Sony stockholders who may have questioned why bring out an A700 replacement when the original didn't gain any market share or break any new ground.
The Betamax was an entirely new product (okay - stolen from...) which wasn't marketed properly, not an evolutionary advance.
By the way, I have an A700 and an A33, but the little guy says more about where we're heading whereas the my beloved A700 shows us where we've been...
It can only mean increased possibilities for all of us. I teach media students and they all want this sort of thing; not just some crappy video capability tacked onto a low-end dSLR. I suspect that the next phase (A77) will make a lot of people happy, including Sony stockholders who may have questioned why bring out an A700 replacement when the original didn't gain any market share or break any new ground.
The Betamax was an entirely new product (okay - stolen from...) which wasn't marketed properly, not an evolutionary advance.
By the way, I have an A700 and an A33, but the little guy says more about where we're heading whereas the my beloved A700 shows us where we've been...
Mike Fewster
Forum Pro
Ron Cione wrote:
I think back to the early seventies when Sony was going to change the way everyone recorded and watched movies with pushing betamax. Nothing would make me happier than to stay with OVF cameras until I am planted. At work, being surrounded by those much younger than myself gives me a chance to see what drives this young and fresh ball of energy. I have co-workers that are a NEX camera user and a A55 user to exchange thoughts on our equipment and photographic technique. Perhaps I am like an old dog but I am willing to try the DSLT concept, I just keep thinking "betamax"........
Jonh wrote:
Maybe you should be thinking blue-ray.
Ron wrote:
John, good point about blueray. There is something about looking through OVF that I feel gives me the edge over looking through EVF. Coming from the old school of wedding and social engagement type of photography, my thought is to have simplicity in the equipment end. I don’t like to have to rely on a total electric camera. Perhaps if there was an option to make the camera usable if there was a glitch with the EVF so we could use OVF, I would feel much better. Thanks for trying to bring me into the fold.
Ron
Corcambell wrote:
camera; we could see it coming for some time, especially when the first dSLRs (and P&Ss years ago) began to add video and with the interest of the younger people in video, combined with the journalists' need for one unit that could do video as well as high-quality stills. The Pany GH2 is part of the same evolution. I don't know why many people are so upset, nervous, and scared of it. Read the threads and pay attention to how many people think that an EVF is the end of the world, who have never actually used one.
It can only mean increased possibilities for all of us. I teach media students and they all want this sort of thing; not just some crappy video capability tacked onto a low-end dSLR. I suspect that the next phase (A77) will make a lot of people happy, including Sony stockholders who may have questioned why bring out an A700 replacement when the original didn't gain any market share or break any new ground.
The Betamax was an entirely new product (okay - stolen from...) which wasn't marketed properly, not an evolutionary advance.
By the way, I have an A700 and an A33, but the little guy says more about where we're heading whereas the my beloved A700 shows us where we've been...
Ron wrote:
Corcambell,
I am not sure if betamax is the wrong anology since VHS was out and was running a better PR blitz at the time. None the less, I would not say the EVF is the end of the world but change is a ***** for us old guys. I'm willing to try the EVF cameras and let the results and operational use be the judge.
I still have my Rolleicord, Bronica SQA, SRT101,102, XD11, A300 and two 700 cameras. They all give me the results I want.
Ron
--
'The early bird catches the worm'
I think back to the early seventies when Sony was going to change the way everyone recorded and watched movies with pushing betamax. Nothing would make me happier than to stay with OVF cameras until I am planted. At work, being surrounded by those much younger than myself gives me a chance to see what drives this young and fresh ball of energy. I have co-workers that are a NEX camera user and a A55 user to exchange thoughts on our equipment and photographic technique. Perhaps I am like an old dog but I am willing to try the DSLT concept, I just keep thinking "betamax"........
Jonh wrote:
Maybe you should be thinking blue-ray.
Ron wrote:
John, good point about blueray. There is something about looking through OVF that I feel gives me the edge over looking through EVF. Coming from the old school of wedding and social engagement type of photography, my thought is to have simplicity in the equipment end. I don’t like to have to rely on a total electric camera. Perhaps if there was an option to make the camera usable if there was a glitch with the EVF so we could use OVF, I would feel much better. Thanks for trying to bring me into the fold.
Ron
Corcambell wrote:
camera; we could see it coming for some time, especially when the first dSLRs (and P&Ss years ago) began to add video and with the interest of the younger people in video, combined with the journalists' need for one unit that could do video as well as high-quality stills. The Pany GH2 is part of the same evolution. I don't know why many people are so upset, nervous, and scared of it. Read the threads and pay attention to how many people think that an EVF is the end of the world, who have never actually used one.
It can only mean increased possibilities for all of us. I teach media students and they all want this sort of thing; not just some crappy video capability tacked onto a low-end dSLR. I suspect that the next phase (A77) will make a lot of people happy, including Sony stockholders who may have questioned why bring out an A700 replacement when the original didn't gain any market share or break any new ground.
The Betamax was an entirely new product (okay - stolen from...) which wasn't marketed properly, not an evolutionary advance.
By the way, I have an A700 and an A33, but the little guy says more about where we're heading whereas the my beloved A700 shows us where we've been...
Ron wrote:
Corcambell,
I am not sure if betamax is the wrong anology since VHS was out and was running a better PR blitz at the time. None the less, I would not say the EVF is the end of the world but change is a ***** for us old guys. I'm willing to try the EVF cameras and let the results and operational use be the judge.
I still have my Rolleicord, Bronica SQA, SRT101,102, XD11, A300 and two 700 cameras. They all give me the results I want.
Ron
--
'The early bird catches the worm'
Troll
The_Wicker_Man
Senior Member
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it's taken you more than 31 hours to come up with that sparkling piece of wit?
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i know what i know, which is a fraction of what i don't
3sgilbert
Senior Member
He is a troll, and this whole thread was his way of a passive aggressive attack on Walt.
However that doesnt mean the core content isnt relevant or correct. What I took from the recent interviews is basically the same ( but not with the absolute tone Mike used ). The positives are that they fully understand that the a77 crowd will be much more demanding of their camera and its EVF. That encourages me to think that they will work to reduce or eliminate ( perceptively ) all shutter lag and speed up the slide show effect ( I would be happy if 6fps worked like 3fps on the a55) while providing more dynamic range. If they accomplish this and put it in a larger body with thumbwheel and more control, "I" think it will be a powerful camera. However I am still a novice and as such I do not begrudge more seasoned photographers for sticking to their tried n true methods of producing images nor do I harbor any resentment because from their standpoint Sony is taking the A-mount down the toilet. A little tolerance here would be a good thing.
--
Canon 7D w Sig 150-500 OS
Sony a700 with HVL56AM
Sony a55 ( Wife )
Sigma 10-20mm
Minolta 50mm F1.4
Minolta 28-75 F2.8 Japan
Sony 18-55 ( Kit )
Tamron 70-200 F2.8 Di
Tamron 28-105 F2.8
Tamron 28-200 3.5-5.6
Tamron 200-500 5-6.3 Di
However that doesnt mean the core content isnt relevant or correct. What I took from the recent interviews is basically the same ( but not with the absolute tone Mike used ). The positives are that they fully understand that the a77 crowd will be much more demanding of their camera and its EVF. That encourages me to think that they will work to reduce or eliminate ( perceptively ) all shutter lag and speed up the slide show effect ( I would be happy if 6fps worked like 3fps on the a55) while providing more dynamic range. If they accomplish this and put it in a larger body with thumbwheel and more control, "I" think it will be a powerful camera. However I am still a novice and as such I do not begrudge more seasoned photographers for sticking to their tried n true methods of producing images nor do I harbor any resentment because from their standpoint Sony is taking the A-mount down the toilet. A little tolerance here would be a good thing.
--
Canon 7D w Sig 150-500 OS
Sony a700 with HVL56AM
Sony a55 ( Wife )
Sigma 10-20mm
Minolta 50mm F1.4
Minolta 28-75 F2.8 Japan
Sony 18-55 ( Kit )
Tamron 70-200 F2.8 Di
Tamron 28-105 F2.8
Tamron 28-200 3.5-5.6
Tamron 200-500 5-6.3 Di
Feeling little paranoid ?
Gavin 11
Senior Member
No ;-)
--
“I prefer my Sony A-7xx, to be made out of wood and be available this centaury” ;-)
You should be thinking this:
Legacy Minolta Alpha mount = Betamax
Sony 'E-mount = Blu-ray
Think about it.
--
Best regards,
Jon
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