A Few Thoughts On The F717

NRich · Nov 9, 2002

Perhaps were collectively not ready to think about visual issues. My thread on" Shot count* A Creative Choice" has gone though twice- with one response only.(thank you Shutter/Jim) So back to the foray of camera comparisons then, with a few further thoughts in an attempt to make balance.

1. Fine images are being displayed in galleries by both cameras, in the hands of experienced photographers. Both capable cameras. I don't see this as much an issue of which is better- more one of better suited, more personal, (than pretense of objectivity in current posters comparables), perhaps more like matching a personality to a camera.

2. Each of the 7x7 has its own personality, however we are still in the early stages of learning to work to the strengths of the newly released F717. The straight from the camera affecionados may prefer the F707. The F707 appears to have a little more contrast, or pop, from full size originals-(having owned and both cameras and the 505v) is little indication of "quality" than first appears. To me the neutral palette of the F717, with live histogram, no less, bears more relation to the way proDSLR images look straight from the camera.

Many experienced photographers, having expereinced both models applaude this area of advancement, and I think rightly so. Ironically a truer comparison of the two models can be made by a skilled photographer, making their own adjustment to default settings according to there own intent. Press both cameras to the wall, in what then they are capable of, and the edge, for me goes to the F717.

3. For example The above image i would prefer to have shot it with a F717 rather than the F707, hands down. Why? The reds and greens in this image predominate, are complex tonaly and intermindle. The F707 veers toward overripe in this area- with these colors, in ways that are more difficult, if not impossible to dissentangle in post processing.

4. I preset exposure compensation to -3 as my default, I preset iso to 100. and preselect in camera sharpening, without visible increase in artifacts, to +1, which incidentley slightly increases contrast. these choices narrow the difference in feel between the out of the camera images of the F707 & F717, and have the benefit of a prefered editing platform with the F717 remains.

5. Shots that may initialy appear overexposed may of may not be.And if so cna easily be notices and adjustewd through the historam.I use it every shot.Pondria has indicated to me he feels this is the very best exposure feedback systen available. Working with the live histogram one would make the jugement to recompose where the histogram is showing sky shots of excessive bright areas indicated by the weight balance spiked to the right side of the histogram.

A true comparison of the two cameras would involve making a skilled photographic judgement, based on what the histogram is telling us, rather than ignoring it, as is the case of most illusionary comparisons currently being posted.

6. The advancements in the F717 are unfortunately still being obscured by, initially a small, blown out of proportion fixable glitch, and along with others, no matter how well intentioned, who are displaying comparibles, not able or willing to incorporate default adjustments, and the historam into the intent of each and every shot.

--
NRich
new F717 gallery evolving at:
http://www.pbase.com/norman

johnd1 · Nov 9, 2002

Hi NRich,

I agree quite closely with what you have written a bit more eloquently than I have.

In particular I find your comments so valid, regarding the small blown out fixable glitch and how it has obscured the real benefits of the 717 such as the histogram that does in fact give us the best exposure feedback available.

I have posted on at least occasions about the value of the histogram and find such little enthusiasm to follow. I have just today read a post from a unsatisfied user who does not employ the histogram feature.I almost fell off my chair in disbelief!

Still ,I am sure this is all from sorting out the differences and recognizing the strengths and values of the additional features of the 717. I actually can see the tide of positive posts increasing and the negative ones waning.

Soon almost all posts will be like the not so long ago days when the 707 was alone in it's glory. It now has a newer brother. thats all.
John

NRich said:
Perhaps were collectively not ready to think about visual issues.
My thread on" Shot count* A Creative Choice" has gone though twice-
with one response only.(thank you Shutter/Jim) So back to the foray
of camera comparisons then, with a few further thoughts in an
attempt to make balance.

1. Fine images are being displayed in galleries by both cameras, in
the hands of experienced photographers. Both capable cameras. I
don't see this as much an issue of which is better- more one of
better suited, more personal, (than pretense of objectivity in
current posters comparables), perhaps more like matching a
personality to a camera.

2. Each of the 7x7 has its own personality, however we are still in
the early stages of learning to work to the strengths of the newly
released F717. The straight from the camera affecionados may
prefer the F707. The F707 appears to have a little more contrast,
or pop, from full size originals-(having owned and both cameras and
the 505v) is little indication of "quality" than first appears. To
me the neutral palette of the F717, with live histogram, no less,
bears more relation to the way proDSLR images look straight from
the camera.
Many experienced photographers, having expereinced both models
applaude this area of advancement, and I think rightly so.
Ironically a truer comparison of the two models can be made by a
skilled photographer, making their own adjustment to default
settings according to there own intent. Press both cameras to the
wall, in what then they are capable of, and the edge, for me goes
to the F717.

3. For example The above image i would prefer to have shot it with
a F717 rather than the F707, hands down. Why? The reds and greens
in this image predominate, are complex tonaly and intermindle. The
F707 veers toward overripe in this area- with these colors, in ways
that are more difficult, if not impossible to dissentangle in post
processing.

4. I preset exposure compensation to -3 as my default, I preset iso
to 100. and preselect in camera sharpening, without visible
increase in artifacts, to +1, which incidentley slightly increases
contrast. these choices narrow the difference in feel between the
out of the camera images of the F707 & F717, and have the benefit
of a prefered editing platform with the F717 remains.

5. Shots that may initialy appear overexposed may of may not be.And
if so cna easily be notices and adjustewd through the historam.I
use it every shot.Pondria has indicated to me he feels this is the
very best exposure feedback systen available. Working with the live
histogram one would make the jugement to recompose where the
histogram is showing sky shots of excessive bright areas indicated
by the weight balance spiked to the right side of the histogram.

A true comparison of the two cameras would involve making a skilled
photographic judgement, based on what the histogram is telling us,
rather than ignoring it, as is the case of most illusionary
comparisons currently being posted.

6. The advancements in the F717 are unfortunately still being
obscured by, initially a small, blown out of proportion fixable
glitch, and along with others, no matter how well intentioned, who
are displaying comparibles, not able or willing to incorporate
default adjustments, and the historam into the intent of each and
every shot.

--
NRich
new F717 gallery evolving at:
http://www.pbase.com/norman

dimi · Nov 9, 2002

NRich,

Thanks for sharing your thoughts...

However, do not expect lots of replies... This is a b$#&ing mostly time of the season

--dimi

johnd1 said:
NRich said:

Perhaps were collectively not ready to think about visual issues.
My thread on" Shot count* A Creative Choice" has gone though twice-
with one response only.(thank you Shutter/Jim) So back to the foray
of camera comparisons then, with a few further thoughts in an
attempt to make balance.

1. Fine images are being displayed in galleries by both cameras, in
the hands of experienced photographers. Both capable cameras. I
don't see this as much an issue of which is better- more one of
better suited, more personal, (than pretense of objectivity in
current posters comparables), perhaps more like matching a
personality to a camera.

2. Each of the 7x7 has its own personality, however we are still in
the early stages of learning to work to the strengths of the newly
released F717. The straight from the camera affecionados may
prefer the F707. The F707 appears to have a little more contrast,
or pop, from full size originals-(having owned and both cameras and
the 505v) is little indication of "quality" than first appears. To
me the neutral palette of the F717, with live histogram, no less,
bears more relation to the way proDSLR images look straight from
the camera.
Many experienced photographers, having expereinced both models
applaude this area of advancement, and I think rightly so.
Ironically a truer comparison of the two models can be made by a
skilled photographer, making their own adjustment to default
settings according to there own intent. Press both cameras to the
wall, in what then they are capable of, and the edge, for me goes
to the F717.

3. For example The above image i would prefer to have shot it with
a F717 rather than the F707, hands down. Why? The reds and greens
in this image predominate, are complex tonaly and intermindle. The
F707 veers toward overripe in this area- with these colors, in ways
that are more difficult, if not impossible to dissentangle in post
processing.

4. I preset exposure compensation to -3 as my default, I preset iso
to 100. and preselect in camera sharpening, without visible
increase in artifacts, to +1, which incidentley slightly increases
contrast. these choices narrow the difference in feel between the
out of the camera images of the F707 & F717, and have the benefit
of a prefered editing platform with the F717 remains.

5. Shots that may initialy appear overexposed may of may not be.And
if so cna easily be notices and adjustewd through the historam.I
use it every shot.Pondria has indicated to me he feels this is the
very best exposure feedback systen available. Working with the live
histogram one would make the jugement to recompose where the
histogram is showing sky shots of excessive bright areas indicated
by the weight balance spiked to the right side of the histogram.

A true comparison of the two cameras would involve making a skilled
photographic judgement, based on what the histogram is telling us,
rather than ignoring it, as is the case of most illusionary
comparisons currently being posted.

6. The advancements in the F717 are unfortunately still being
obscured by, initially a small, blown out of proportion fixable
glitch, and along with others, no matter how well intentioned, who
are displaying comparibles, not able or willing to incorporate
default adjustments, and the historam into the intent of each and
every shot.

--
NRich
new F717 gallery evolving at:
http://www.pbase.com/norman

Click to expand...

NRich · Nov 9, 2002

Hello John,

johnd1 said:
In particular I find your comments so valid, regarding the small
blown out fixable glitch and how it has obscured the real benefits
of the 717 such as the histogram that does in fact give us the best
exposure feedback available.

I agree- small glitch with a fix-compared to leading edge exposure technogy via live histogram incorporatated into the F717. Its seems clear the overall advancement is there and valuable.. How so? Use the histogram for 200 shots than imagine it being taken away--ouch. It hard for those to realize how it would be missed if they don't use it, harder still if they don't have it, as is the case with the F707, and 505v, and I'm fond of having worked with both these cameras-as one would see if you look at my 505v and F707 pbase galleries.

johnd1 said:
I have posted on at least occasions about the value of the
histogram and find such little enthusiasm to follow. I have just
today read a post from a unsatisfied user who does not employ the
histogram feature.I almost fell off my chair in disbelief!

.... Got to give the histogram and F717 time to work its magic- its a honey in my view.

johnd1 said:
Still ,I am sure this is all from sorting out the differences and
recognizing the strengths and values of the additional features of
the 717. I actually can see the tide of positive posts increasing
and the negative ones waning.

Yes, tides is a good anology. Did you read Shays recent thread regarding patterns of forum posts, camera and weather forecasts? Very insightful. Ulysses also has provided an overview and cautioned us regarding cycles of camera acceptance, and the winds of change. What were often not seeing is the big picture. My heart goes out to those trying to sift through whats reasonable, to chose the camera thats right for them.

My heart also goes out to those, having made their choice of camera, and are undermined by surges of posters dissatisfied, unable to squeeze out the possibilites with what they have- be it the F707 or the F717. As you say the tide will turn, and i suspect as some point the F717 wil be discovered anew, as exceptional images continue to roll in.

johnd1 said:
Soon almost all posts will be like the not so long ago days when
the 707 was alone in it's glory. It now has a newer brother. thats
all.
John

NRich said:

1. Fine images are being displayed in galleries by both cameras, in
the hands of experienced photographers. Both capable cameras. I
don't see this as much an issue of which is better- more one of
better suited, more personal, (than pretense of objectivity in
current posters comparables), perhaps more like matching a
personality to a camera.

Click to expand...

johnd1 said:
johnd1 said:

6. The advancements in the F717 are unfortunately still being
obscured by, initially a small, blown out of proportion fixable
glitch, and along with others, no matter how well intentioned, who
are displaying comparibles, not able or willing to incorporate
default adjustments, and the historam into the intent of each and
every shot.

Click to expand...

--
NRich
http://www.pbase.com/norman

kenmelmax · Nov 9, 2002

I just wanted to say that I really enjoyed looking at the pictures in your gallery. I hope one day to be able to capture the beauty in the same way you have in your subjects.

NRich said:
Perhaps were collectively not ready to think about visual issues.
My thread on" Shot count* A Creative Choice" has gone though twice-
with one response only.(thank you Shutter/Jim) So back to the foray
of camera comparisons then, with a few further thoughts in an
attempt to make balance.

1. Fine images are being displayed in galleries by both cameras, in
the hands of experienced photographers. Both capable cameras. I
don't see this as much an issue of which is better- more one of
better suited, more personal, (than pretense of objectivity in
current posters comparables), perhaps more like matching a
personality to a camera.

2. Each of the 7x7 has its own personality, however we are still in
the early stages of learning to work to the strengths of the newly
released F717. The straight from the camera affecionados may
prefer the F707. The F707 appears to have a little more contrast,
or pop, from full size originals-(having owned and both cameras and
the 505v) is little indication of "quality" than first appears. To
me the neutral palette of the F717, with live histogram, no less,
bears more relation to the way proDSLR images look straight from
the camera.
Many experienced photographers, having expereinced both models
applaude this area of advancement, and I think rightly so.
Ironically a truer comparison of the two models can be made by a
skilled photographer, making their own adjustment to default
settings according to there own intent. Press both cameras to the
wall, in what then they are capable of, and the edge, for me goes
to the F717.

3. For example The above image i would prefer to have shot it with
a F717 rather than the F707, hands down. Why? The reds and greens
in this image predominate, are complex tonaly and intermindle. The
F707 veers toward overripe in this area- with these colors, in ways
that are more difficult, if not impossible to dissentangle in post
processing.

4. I preset exposure compensation to -3 as my default, I preset iso
to 100. and preselect in camera sharpening, without visible
increase in artifacts, to +1, which incidentley slightly increases
contrast. these choices narrow the difference in feel between the
out of the camera images of the F707 & F717, and have the benefit
of a prefered editing platform with the F717 remains.

5. Shots that may initialy appear overexposed may of may not be.And
if so cna easily be notices and adjustewd through the historam.I
use it every shot.Pondria has indicated to me he feels this is the
very best exposure feedback systen available. Working with the live
histogram one would make the jugement to recompose where the
histogram is showing sky shots of excessive bright areas indicated
by the weight balance spiked to the right side of the histogram.

A true comparison of the two cameras would involve making a skilled
photographic judgement, based on what the histogram is telling us,
rather than ignoring it, as is the case of most illusionary
comparisons currently being posted.

6. The advancements in the F717 are unfortunately still being
obscured by, initially a small, blown out of proportion fixable
glitch, and along with others, no matter how well intentioned, who
are displaying comparibles, not able or willing to incorporate
default adjustments, and the historam into the intent of each and
every shot.

--
NRich
new F717 gallery evolving at:
http://www.pbase.com/norman

--
Ken
DSC-F717, PS 7.0, Epson 2200 and One Understanding Wife
http://www.pbase.com/kenmelmax

SmokinMan · Nov 9, 2002

See my other post with regard to the same subject

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1009&message=3740763

I happen to like 717 colors more. If there is anytrhing that can make me think twice to get 707 a year ago, that will be the colors. If I was active in the forum a year ago, I probably would voice a critical view of the 707 colors as well. Other than that no other camera could actually match the 707.

NRich said:
5. Shots that may initialy appear overexposed may of may not be.And
if so cna easily be notices and adjustewd through the historam.I
use it every shot.Pondria has indicated to me he feels this is the
very best exposure feedback systen available. Working with the live
histogram one would make the jugement to recompose where the
histogram is showing sky shots of excessive bright areas indicated
by the weight balance spiked to the right side of the histogram.

Now, this is the area I have not accustomed to. I miss it most of the time despite being fond of this feature on the first place. As an example, I went to a local Sea World here last week trying some aquarium shots. When facing the challenging low lighting and a moving fish, I concentrated so much on how to get the best exposure and to be able to capture the moving fish. In doing that I had to take the aquarium shots using the spot meter to get the best exposure of the fish and slighly underexpose to get a faster shutter speed. When moving to darker part of the display to take the pic of a lobster(pretty much stand still), I used the same setting and the result is that all the lobster pic is WAY UNDER EXPOSED. Should I pay attention to the histogram display and the fact that the lobster is practically stand still, I should be able to adjust the shutter speed or even the ISO to match the lighting condition and stand still lobsters.

The other mistake I made that day was on our way home I was in hurry to take picture of the Sea World building outside(very bright sunny day) using Aparture Priority mode. BUT I forgot to change the spot meter. Basically I happen to point the meter at a very bright part of the building and the result is again a way underexposed shot. The bright part of the sky was very close to the middle of the histogram .Should I notice the histogram display, I should be able figured out that I am still in spot meter mode.

My point is that this 717 is not just point and shoot and it is very easy to scew up shots when you miss one or some of the setting. Auto and P mode will not give you the best exposure for sure. The hsitogram on the other hand when used properly is the best tool to get the maximum result out of 717. I just have to pay more attention to it and make use of it.

--
SmokinMan

Sony DSC F717 (On Hand...Yipeeeee!)
Canon S-40(SOLD)
Olympus IS-1 35mm Film

Camera http://www.pbase.com/smokinman/

Bill Borne · Nov 9, 2002

Hey Norman

I have to agree with what you are saying here. I loved my 707, but one thing that always bugged me about it was the fact I had a lot of trouble taking photos of bright red flowers. I actually shyed away from them.

I got 717 and at first was frustrated with it. It seemed like it was "too soft" after using my 707. And had lost that color punch. The problem was that I thought it was a 707 with more features. Not so, IMO. It is a different camera. As I grew accustomed to the 707 images, now I have grown acustomed to the more natural color of the 717. Take a photo and then compare it to the subject you are looking at and it is pretty much on the money. I think we tend to remember a scene more vivid than it really is. I also think the 717 is geared more to post editing control and the 707 is more towards P&S, but not totally a P&S either. I do like the 717 better than the 707, but I could live with the 707 too..got lots of fine photos with it. As you said, I have switched to +1 sharpening also. +2 doesn't cut it when I've tried it. And yes the histogram is the key to exposure. I'm still trying to get a handle on it. I'm curious as to weather you use the evf or lcd most of the time? I use the evf almost exclusively..maybe from being used to using slr's for so long.

NRich said:
Perhaps were collectively not ready to think about visual issues.
My thread on" Shot count* A Creative Choice" has gone though twice-
with one response only.(thank you Shutter/Jim) So back to the foray
of camera comparisons then, with a few further thoughts in an
attempt to make balance.

1. Fine images are being displayed in galleries by both cameras, in
the hands of experienced photographers. Both capable cameras. I
don't see this as much an issue of which is better- more one of
better suited, more personal, (than pretense of objectivity in
current posters comparables), perhaps more like matching a
personality to a camera.

2. Each of the 7x7 has its own personality, however we are still in
the early stages of learning to work to the strengths of the newly
released F717. The straight from the camera affecionados may
prefer the F707. The F707 appears to have a little more contrast,
or pop, from full size originals-(having owned and both cameras and
the 505v) is little indication of "quality" than first appears. To
me the neutral palette of the F717, with live histogram, no less,
bears more relation to the way proDSLR images look straight from
the camera.
Many experienced photographers, having expereinced both models
applaude this area of advancement, and I think rightly so.
Ironically a truer comparison of the two models can be made by a
skilled photographer, making their own adjustment to default
settings according to there own intent. Press both cameras to the
wall, in what then they are capable of, and the edge, for me goes
to the F717.

3. For example The above image i would prefer to have shot it with
a F717 rather than the F707, hands down. Why? The reds and greens
in this image predominate, are complex tonaly and intermindle. The
F707 veers toward overripe in this area- with these colors, in ways
that are more difficult, if not impossible to dissentangle in post
processing.

4. I preset exposure compensation to -3 as my default, I preset iso
to 100. and preselect in camera sharpening, without visible
increase in artifacts, to +1, which incidentley slightly increases
contrast. these choices narrow the difference in feel between the
out of the camera images of the F707 & F717, and have the benefit
of a prefered editing platform with the F717 remains.

5. Shots that may initialy appear overexposed may of may not be.And
if so cna easily be notices and adjustewd through the historam.I
use it every shot.Pondria has indicated to me he feels this is the
very best exposure feedback systen available. Working with the live
histogram one would make the jugement to recompose where the
histogram is showing sky shots of excessive bright areas indicated
by the weight balance spiked to the right side of the histogram.

A true comparison of the two cameras would involve making a skilled
photographic judgement, based on what the histogram is telling us,
rather than ignoring it, as is the case of most illusionary
comparisons currently being posted.

6. The advancements in the F717 are unfortunately still being
obscured by, initially a small, blown out of proportion fixable
glitch, and along with others, no matter how well intentioned, who
are displaying comparibles, not able or willing to incorporate
default adjustments, and the historam into the intent of each and
every shot.

--
NRich
new F717 gallery evolving at:
http://www.pbase.com/norman

--
Bill B
http://www.pbase.com/bill_b

NRich · Nov 10, 2002

Bill Borne said:
Hey Norman

Hi Bill

I've got to say, I enjoy your posts. Our experience seems to be running parralel in a number of ways. We don't want to knock the F707. We took good images with the F707 and others still are. The F717 has grown in appeal. We intially referenced off the F707, and had related expectations.

We realize now the F717 is not F707 with new features, its been retooled in a number of ways, In your words 'its a different camera." We've are coming to appreciate" the more neautral colors, the more natural look," and the F717 as a whole.I believe as you do that as the F717 is geared more to be a neautral palette platform, it responds well in post processsing.

My sense is this is a step for prosummers who wish to push the limits of their cammera, a camera that is inching toward the pro market. If this presumption is correct, these qualities are been intentionally build into the design. The question is are customers willing to take the next step. Is there sufficent colective maturity- for photographers,for the buying public- to postphone a litle immediate snap/pop of F707 out of the camera originals, in exchange for a F717 original that is designed to reach it optimum in tune-up, as would be expected of a Pro DSLR?

This question that may go to the heart off the issue. Would you prefer a camera whose images have a little more apparent punch-straight from the camera, knowing for example that this puch has come at the cost of overipe reds and green, and you may not be able to recover the loss in photo-shop. Or are you willing to postpone a bit of instant out of the camera gratification, to gain a slightly softer more neutral-natural palette that takes is primed to optimize in post processing?

If this is correct, then our awareness of what has been gained in the F717, has a bearing of what Sony is willing and able to provide us to work with in the next generation, a camera Either geared toward point and shoot or a maturing generation of prosumers. And what we say here may matter. Just a theory.

Bill Borne said:
I got 717 and at first was frustrated with it. It seemed like it
was "too soft" after using my 707. And had lost that color punch.
The problem was that I thought it was a 707 with more features. Not
so, IMO. It is a different camera. As I grew accustomed to the 707
images, now I have grown acustomed to the more natural color of the
717. Take a photo and then compare it to the subject you are
looking at and it is pretty much on the money. I think we tend to
remember a scene more vivid than it really is. I also think the 717
is geared more to post editing control and the 707 is more towards
P&S, but not totally a P&S either. I do like the 717 better than
the 707, but I could live with the 707 too..got lots of fine photos
with it. As you said, I have switched to +1 sharpening also. +2
doesn't cut it when I've tried it. And yes the histogram is the key
to exposure. I'm still trying to get a handle on it. I'm curious as
to weather you use the evf or lcd most of the time? I use the evf
almost exclusively..maybe from being used to using slr's for so
long.

I differ here Bill,my focus goes onto the LCD and histogram, rather than thru the evf. I adjust the tripod to look down on the LCD. and shift my focus, back and forth between the scene and the LCD.Only a matter of personal preference, though. Were in accord on our outlook and experience of the F717 todate.

Bill Borne said:
NRich said:

1. Fine images are being displayed in galleries by both cameras, in
the hands of experienced photographers. Both capable cameras. I
don't see this as much an issue of which is better- more one of
better suited, more personal, (than pretense of objectivity in
current posters comparables), perhaps more like matching a
personality to a camera.

Click to expand...

Bill Borne said:
Bill Borne said:

2. Each of the 7x7 has its own personality, however we are still in
the early stages of learning to work to the strengths of the newly
released F717. The straight from the camera affecionados may
prefer the F707. The F707 appears to have a little more contrast,
or pop, from full size originals-(having owned and both cameras and
the 505v) is little indication of "quality" than first appears. To
me the neutral palette of the F717, with live histogram, no less,
bears more relation to the way proDSLR images look straight from
the camera.
Many experienced photographers, having expereinced both models
applaude this area of advancement, and I think rightly so.
Ironically a truer comparison of the two models can be made by a
skilled photographer, making their own adjustment to default
settings according to there own intent. Press both cameras to the
wall, in what then they are capable of, and the edge, for me goes
to the F717.

Click to expand...

Bill Borne said:
Bill Borne said:

4. I preset exposure compensation to -3 as my default, I preset iso
to 100. and preselect in camera sharpening, without visible
increase in artifacts, to +1, which incidentley slightly increases
contrast. these choices narrow the difference in feel between the
out of the camera images of the F707 & F717, and have the benefit
of a prefered editing platform with the F717 remains.

Click to expand...

Bill Borne said:
Bill Borne said:

6. The advancements in the F717 are unfortunately still being
obscured by, initially a small, blown out of proportion fixable
glitch, and along with others, no matter how well intentioned, who
are displaying comparibles, not able or willing to incorporate
default adjustments, and the historam into the intent of each and
every shot.

Click to expand...

Bill Borne said:
Bill Borne said:

--
NRich
new F717 gallery evolving at:
http://www.pbase.com/norman

Click to expand...

--
Bill B
http://www.pbase.com/bill_b

NRich · Nov 10, 2002

SmokinMan said:
See my other post with regard to the same subject

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1009&message=3740763

Yes, the pattern I am seeing, is those that have had the F707, are having to get use to how to use the new F717 advancements to advantage. Those new to the 7x7 series, appear to be more immeadiately pleased with the natural neutral palette of the F717.

SmokinMan said:
I happen to like 717 colors more. If there is anytrhing that can
make me think twice to get 707 a year ago, that will be the colors.
If I was active in the forum a year ago, I probably would voice a
critical view of the 707 colors as well. Other than that no other
camera could actually match the 707.

SmokinMan said:

5. Shots that may initialy appear overexposed may of may not be.And
if so cna easily be notices and adjustewd through the historam.I
use it every shot.Pondria has indicated to me he feels this is the
very best exposure feedback systen available. Working with the live
histogram one would make the jugement to recompose where the
histogram is showing sky shots of excessive bright areas indicated
by the weight balance spiked to the right side of the histogram.

Click to expand...

Now, this is the area I have not accustomed to. I miss it most of
the time despite being fond of this feature on the first place. As
an example, I went to a local Sea World here last week trying some
aquarium shots. When facing the challenging low lighting and a
moving fish, I concentrated so much on how to get the best exposure
and to be able to capture the moving fish. In doing that I had to
take the aquarium shots using the spot meter to get the best
exposure of the fish and slighly underexpose to get a faster
shutter speed. When moving to darker part of the display to take
the pic of a lobster(pretty much stand still), I used the same
setting and the result is that all the lobster pic is WAY UNDER
EXPOSED. Should I pay attention to the histogram display and the
fact that the lobster is practically stand still, I should be able
to adjust the shutter speed or even the ISO to match the lighting
condition and stand still lobsters.

Aquarium shots have many challenges, especially low light, as my intent is not to use a flash to express the natural look of creatures emerging out of the watery depths. You may want to have an aquarium membership, as I do so that I am comfortable in returning as often as I like to develop a series of images over time. I have an aquarium gallery at pbase called "salt water treasures." This shot is from the F717- shot at 1/8 sec. I make use of the histogram on each shot, even though the reading is heavily balanced to the left side.

Those interested in night shots would be wise to reserch Shays contibution, as to the progressive limitations of relying on the histogram beyond 2sec.

SmokinMan said:
The other mistake I made that day was on our way home I was in
hurry to take picture of the Sea World building outside(very bright
sunny day) using Aparture Priority mode. BUT I forgot to change
the spot meter. Basically I happen to point the meter at a very
bright part of the building and the result is again a way
underexposed shot. The bright part of the sky was very close to the
middle of the histogram .Should I notice the histogram display, I
should be able figured out that I am still in spot meter mode.

Its interesting, to imagine where we will be a year from now with our camera settings choices with the F717. Same camera, but our perception of it will have changed, with more experience along in our choice of settings to get the most out of it. I already appreciate the color and tonal platform of the F 717 for post processing editing purposes.

SmokinMan said:
My point is that this 717 is not just point and shoot and it is
very easy to scew up shots when you miss one or some of the
setting. Auto and P mode will not give you the best exposure for
sure.
The hsitogram on the other hand when used properly is the
best tool to get the maximum result out of 717. I just have to pay
more attention to it and make use of it.

Agreed- were all learning how to make best use of the live historam- a valued asset.

SmokinMan said:
--

NRich
http://www.pbase.com/norman

Terry Callies · Nov 10, 2002

Hello Norman, First I agree with most everything you say, second this image of yours with it's 3-D look speaks volumes for the capabilities of the 717 if no words were used.

In my case the Histogram and front focus ring were the selling points that attracted me and I have not been disappointed, every time I use the camera I learn more and feel more in love. The impression was not that way thought.

I kept my 707 and proceeded to do side by side test when I first got my 717 and was horrified at the washed colors but then I also was able to see that these were natural colors!!! I was expecting a improved 707 but this is a completely different camera, just looks similar. Anyway these cameras fit my style. I like to shoot from the hip and all kind of crazy angles, you could not give me a heavy old D-60 or D1x, Put $5000.00 on the table or a fitted out D-60 and I'd take the 5 big ones and buy 2 more 717's one for each Olympus lens!!! and be very happy. Terry

Marcel-Etienne56998 · Nov 10, 2002

Hi Norman,

In one of your posts here you started to compare the colours produced by the 717, not only with the 707 as most people currently do, but with the 505v as well. Having just received my new 717 after using a 505v for more than two years, I would be interested to know more about this topic (colour rendition of the 505v and the 707), and what I should expect from my new tool. Here in Belgium I can't really test it at the moment... weather conditions are appalling. :-(
Regards

--
Marcel-Etienne

NRich · Nov 10, 2002

Terry Callies said:
Hello Norman, First I agree with most everything you say, second
this image of yours with it's 3-D look speaks volumes for the
capabilities of the 717 if no words were used.

Terry

I enjoy your posts immensely. Your the first to include in your comments the photo. I think this image, as a reference is useful to those owning both the F707 and F717, and having trouble with evaluating comparisons. This shot as F707 owners know would have given the F707 fits. The F717 translates it in stride.This is significant to me.

Terry Callies said:
In my case the Histogram and front focus ring were the selling
points that attracted me and I have not been disappointed, every
time I use the camera I learn more and feel more in love. The
impression was not that way thought.

Yes, the histogram, the front focus ring, and the color improvements, are three big reasons that lead me to the expression-"significant improvements."

Terry Callies said:
I kept my 707 and proceeded to do side by side test when I first
got my 717 and was horrified at the washed colors but then I also
was able to see that these were natural colors!!! I was expecting a
improved 707 but this is a completely different camera, just looks
similar.

Are you also finding, as I have that you prefer the F717 images to fine tune in post processing? I would prefer that my camera allows me to add my own contrasts, rather them pumpimg them up, as in the F707. The way F717 originals appear from the camera, IMO have more of the base look of pro models rather than the overripe transalations of point and shoot models. While it may be a matter of personal preference in prosumer models, Pros generally prefer to make their own editing choices, rather than assume the camera has done it for them.

Terry Callies said:
Anyway these cameras fit my style. I like to shoot from
the hip and all kind of crazy angles, you could not give me a heavy
old D-60 or D1x, Put $5000.00 on the table or a fitted out D-60 and
I'd take the 5 big ones and buy 2 more 717's one for each Olympus
lens!!! and be very happy. Terry

If you've read my thread on Shot count- you know I'm a big proponent of bringing more physical movement to our shots. I shot with the camera lower than eye level and look down into the LCD, I too look for many camera angle opportunites, from an inch of the ground to over my head, and can cause quite a stir with the lenghts I go for a shot.

I also agree with you regarding 7x7 series value, the F717 goes a great ways toward DSLR pro cameras image capability at a fraction of the price, and in the case of live histogram is exceeding the bar set in DSLR's. To my mind Sony has achieved, with its F717, a camera that nips on the heels of pro camera models.IMO Its up to us to catch up in what we extract from its capabilities. You and I have both discovered, the extraodinary match of the 7x7 series with the pro Olympus MCON- TCON, and others in the series, closing the gap even further. I look forward to your posts.
--
NRich
http://www.pbase.com/norman

Rick Ashford · Nov 10, 2002

NRich said:
6. The advancements in the F717 are unfortunately still being
obscured by, initially a small, blown out of proportion fixable
glitch, and along with others, no matter how well intentioned, who
are displaying comparibles, not able or willing to incorporate
default adjustments, and the historam into the intent of each and
every shot.

Ouch! I guess I got slammed pretty good. Please understand.... I am not giving up on the 717, I am just "not there" yet. I dare say that no one on this forum has used a live histogram before getting the 717. There is a whole new learning curve here, and some of us learn more quickly than others. I like my 707.... it takes great pictures without the need, IMHO, for post-processing. To be honest, I never found the reds and greens to be annoying. I have never felt that the colors I obtained from my 707 were not realistic. Having said that, it is easy to understand why I have been disappointed with the results from my 717. Learning to appreciate these new, less vibrant, more "washed out" colors will take some time. But I am not giving up yet.

NRich said:
--
NRich
new F717 gallery evolving at:
http://www.pbase.com/norman

--
Rick A.
Johnson City, TN

Marcel-Etienne56998 · Nov 10, 2002

Norman,

From your posts I know that you like to use the Olympus MCON-35 add-on lens for close-up photography. I am looking for such a lens, but before I take a decision I would like to know precisely to what extent it changes the range of the 717.
Thanks

--
Marcel-Etienne

Isabel Cutler · Nov 10, 2002

Many remind me of the paintings of Monet...surely they are a combination of the camera and photographer at their best!
Thanks for sharing these memorable images with us.
Isabel
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Digipets/?yguid=11497599

Bill Borne · Nov 10, 2002

Norman...I enjoy reading all your posts to each person. You are very deliberate in you choice of words. I had some time this morning so went down to the pond. It was overcast and the lighting was terrible, but I managed to snap a couple of shots. Nothing much, but maybe you like to take a look. The woodpecker holes were a test of the b-300 I just got. One thing on the 717, I wish it would give a shallower DOF at lower F -stops. Have you noticed the difference of DOF between 717 and slr's you have used?
http://www.pbase.com/bill_b/wood
Bill B

Naveed Afridi · Nov 10, 2002

I am by no means a good photographer. I do however enjoy taking photographs. I am also guilty of enjoying the camera more than I should, they are "toys" for me, sometimes to the extent of it being a tool.

I was one of the ones lured away last year from the 707, because after the initial wow factor, the camera was more of how you have described it. That is not a bad thing, but an aspect of its character.

I think the 717 addresses much of what made many turn to the Nikons(cp5000) or Canons (G2) in those days.

Currently i am wondering if I should come back to Sony, the 717 seems to be what I had hoped the 707 would be. Again, I dont think the 707 is inferior, but different.

In some ways, its somewhat like (but not really the same as) the choice of film one may run through an SLR, fuji chrome velvia, kodachrome etc

BTW I remember being flamed for moving to Nikon ..... I never understand that sort of thing really.

NRich said:
Perhaps were collectively not ready to think about visual issues.
My thread on" Shot count* A Creative Choice" has gone though twice-
with one response only.(thank you Shutter/Jim) So back to the foray
of camera comparisons then, with a few further thoughts in an
attempt to make balance.

1. Fine images are being displayed in galleries by both cameras, in
the hands of experienced photographers. Both capable cameras. I
don't see this as much an issue of which is better- more one of
better suited, more personal, (than pretense of objectivity in
current posters comparables), perhaps more like matching a
personality to a camera.

2. Each of the 7x7 has its own personality, however we are still in
the early stages of learning to work to the strengths of the newly
released F717. The straight from the camera affecionados may
prefer the F707. The F707 appears to have a little more contrast,
or pop, from full size originals-(having owned and both cameras and
the 505v) is little indication of "quality" than first appears. To
me the neutral palette of the F717, with live histogram, no less,
bears more relation to the way proDSLR images look straight from
the camera.
Many experienced photographers, having expereinced both models
applaude this area of advancement, and I think rightly so.
Ironically a truer comparison of the two models can be made by a
skilled photographer, making their own adjustment to default
settings according to there own intent. Press both cameras to the
wall, in what then they are capable of, and the edge, for me goes
to the F717.

3. For example The above image i would prefer to have shot it with
a F717 rather than the F707, hands down. Why? The reds and greens
in this image predominate, are complex tonaly and intermindle. The
F707 veers toward overripe in this area- with these colors, in ways
that are more difficult, if not impossible to dissentangle in post
processing.

4. I preset exposure compensation to -3 as my default, I preset iso
to 100. and preselect in camera sharpening, without visible
increase in artifacts, to +1, which incidentley slightly increases
contrast. these choices narrow the difference in feel between the
out of the camera images of the F707 & F717, and have the benefit
of a prefered editing platform with the F717 remains.

5. Shots that may initialy appear overexposed may of may not be.And
if so cna easily be notices and adjustewd through the historam.I
use it every shot.Pondria has indicated to me he feels this is the
very best exposure feedback systen available. Working with the live
histogram one would make the jugement to recompose where the
histogram is showing sky shots of excessive bright areas indicated
by the weight balance spiked to the right side of the histogram.

A true comparison of the two cameras would involve making a skilled
photographic judgement, based on what the histogram is telling us,
rather than ignoring it, as is the case of most illusionary
comparisons currently being posted.

6. The advancements in the F717 are unfortunately still being
obscured by, initially a small, blown out of proportion fixable
glitch, and along with others, no matter how well intentioned, who
are displaying comparibles, not able or willing to incorporate
default adjustments, and the historam into the intent of each and
every shot.

--
NRich
new F717 gallery evolving at:
http://www.pbase.com/norman

rosie b · Nov 10, 2002

Isabel Cutler said:
Many remind me of the paintings of Monet...surely they are a
combination of the camera and photographer at their best!

That is exactly what I felt. As a painter I find myself really envying so many qulaities in your photos that I rarely see in photography. Among other things, you really know how to make colours sing! That is not the camera, it is you, but it is a great encouragement to the rest of us to know what the 717 is capable of in the right hands.

Rosie

rosie b · Nov 10, 2002

PS

If I thought I could take photos as beautifully composed, glowing and interesting as yours I would prbably give up painting and that is really saying something, for I am passionate about it!

It takes me forever to download full size photos with my slow old modem, but I shall certainly do so in the next few days as even just the thumbnails are glorious.

I have bookmarked your site and look forward, hopefully, to many more.

--
Rosie

halievski · Nov 10, 2002

Take it easy johnd1, everybody in this forum knows you as a respective and a very proud owner of 717, which is the "only one" and the best camera in this world, so don't fall off your chair, the floor could be too hard. There were times, more than 2.5 years ago, when Toshiba came out to the market with PDR-M70 model that has live histogram feature. I owned that model for about 2 years and used histogram feature probably in 2-3% of my shots only. Once you have some experience,that you probably missing presently, you won't use that feature really often, your eyes would know already what kind of setting your camera require for certain composition. IT IS NOT A GOOD STYLE TO PUT PEOPLE DOWN THE WAY YOU DO and IT"S NOT THE FIRST TIME ALREADY! So, take it easy, my grandma said to me long time ago: "never say you are the strongest, because there is always the one that even stronger than you are". We always welcome smart people (as you are) in this STF, and we always ask people to be patient to each other - everybody has a different level of knowledge and skills
chrs
halievski

johnd1 said:
Hi NRich,
I agree quite closely with what you have written a bit more
eloquently than I have.
In particular I find your comments so valid, regarding the small
blown out fixable glitch and how it has obscured the real benefits
of the 717 such as the histogram that does in fact give us the best
exposure feedback available.
I have posted on at least occasions about the value of the
histogram and find such little enthusiasm to follow. I have just
today read a post from a unsatisfied user who does not employ the
histogram feature.I almost fell off my chair in disbelief!
Still ,I am sure this is all from sorting out the differences and
recognizing the strengths and values of the additional features of
the 717. I actually can see the tide of positive posts increasing
and the negative ones waning.
Soon almost all posts will be like the not so long ago days when
the 707 was alone in it's glory. It now has a newer brother. thats
all.
John

A Few Thoughts On The F717

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