Do Macs need anti virus or firewall sftware?

Great security guard, nothing phones home without permission, foils any spyware that one might inadvertently and foolishly install. It's also very lightweight so there's no hit to system resources. It's the only anti-malware app I've ever used or felt the potential need for. For those interested:

http://www.obdev.at/products/littlesnitch/index.html

MrMojo said:

I use Hands Off to monitor outgoing network connections; a similar program is LittleSnitch. These types of programs will alert you if you inadvertently install a Trojan Horse that attempts to "phone home."

I also use Witopia's personalVPN service to secure data transfers at wireless/wired hotspots and to hide my IP Address online.

Anti-virus software on a Mac? Fergit About It!

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Edvinas said:

Mike Osborn said:

I've NEVER used anti-virus or firewall software on any of my Macs, and have never even seen a virus attempt to infect any of my machines.

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O am curiuos about one thing: if you're not using any malware detection software, how do you know that your system is not infected?

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How do you know the malware detection software will detect everything ?

I have used LittleSnitch for years but I now prefer Hands Off: it has more features and costs $5 less than LS. (LittleSnitch users can "cross-grade" for $9.95.)

Hands Off and LittleSnitch Comparison Chart: http://www.metakine.com/products/handsoff/

Edvinas said:

O am curiuos about one thing: if you're not using any malware detection software, how do you know that your system is not infected?

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A fair question. But the great thing here is that it can be verified independently:

There are thousands of known Windows viruses in the wild.

Now name one, just one, known Mac virus in the wild.

If the security researchers haven't found one, let's face it: chances are overwhelmingly that your Mac is not infected. And this also brings up another Mac advantage: When your system is acting funny, at least you can eliminate the virus angle immediately (until authorities one day announce there is an actual virus to watch out for). You can spend your valuable time troubleshooting other reasons instead.

Mac users shouldn't be too complacent, though. When the system is secure, the user is automatically the weak point. Viruses may not be the biggest threat to your security. No antivirus software and no OS can stop you from accidentally falling for a phishing or social engineering scam that can open up your accounts and hijack your identity, using a password so easy and stupid that all the thief has to do is guess, or from intercepting your network traffic when you use wifi over a public network. Mac users still need to be careful and cover the other, non-virus security angles.

I thought this was a reasonable question so just a short time ago i downloaded the Sophos home edition mac anti virus program to my mac book pro. this is my most at risk mac because I use it everywhere and I let others use it. I ran a scan of my entire drive for both mac and windows viruses and other threats.

it found nothing

I have neve felt the need for any anti virus software, but for the time being I think I will leave the sophos installed - I have some friends who connect to my network with PC's so at least this way I can be fairly sure I wont let any windows threats onto the network that could get them

Edvinas said:

Mike Osborn said:

I've NEVER used anti-virus or firewall software on any of my Macs, and have never even seen a virus attempt to infect any of my machines.

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O am curiuos about one thing: if you're not using any malware detection software, how do you know that your system is not infected?

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--
My kit - D200, 10.5mm f/2.8D, 35mm f/1.8G, 50mm f/1.4G & 70-300VR
Wifes kit – D80, 18-105VR
SB800, SB600 and other misc lighting equipment

Lenses worth mentioning owned and sold– 12-24 f/4, 17-55 f/2.8, 35-70 f/2.8, 80-200 f/2.8, 20mm f/2.8, 35mm f/2, 50mm f/1.8, 50mm f/1.4D, 60mm f/2.8D, 85mm f/1.8, 105mm f/2D-DC, 180mm f/2.8, 300mm f/4D-ED

The only viruses I have found are those in e-mail attachments that I received from Windows users...

edwardaneal said:

I have neve felt the need for any anti virus software, but for the time being I think I will leave the sophos installed - I have some friends who connect to my network with PC's so at least this way I can be fairly sure I wont let any windows threats onto the network that could get them

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MrMojo said:

The only viruses I have found are those in e-mail attachments that I received from Windows users...

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That's actually the main reason some Mac users do run antivirus software. Not to protect their own Mac, but to avoid being a carrier of Windows viruses that won't hurt them but may come through and be forwarded or redistributed. Some companies require all employees/students to run AV just so that any potential legal liability can be disclaimed (i.e. so you won't be fingered as where a Windows virus was sent from).

Other Mac users say "F--- it, let the Windows users take responsibility for protecting their own systems."

Up to you which course you prefer to take...

most affluent users are retired folks using aging machines running XP. They only use their machines for their investments, don't keep up with anti-virus programs, Etc., and don't always upgrade their security patches.

Those people are the perfect targets, whereas Apple computers attract a lot of students who have no wealth or loaded bank accounts to access, but who maintain their security and tend to have the newer operating systems.

of my computer, and for the encryption. I work in China most of the year and have to take care of finances, including taxes, over the net; for the same reason, I also employ a VPN when traveling in the States, UK, Etc., for added protection when using hotel or university systems, or just using WiFi at Starbucks. Many companies require their employees to use VPNs when traveling, especially financial institutions. Every other person I work with uses a VPN, although we're not required to, for the above reasons.

I use a VPN on my iPad 3G, which is used in the US, UK, and in China. I also have it available on my iPhone, but don't use the phone to do anything sensitive so it's usually turned off.

Although not really about security, using a VPN in China allows me to access YouTube, FaceBook, Hulu, Etc., and even allows me to buy books (Kindle books from Amazon, for example) that aren't supposed to be sold in China. In fact, you need a VPN to access some Hulu content anywhere outside the US. One time I had my VPN turned off, and Microsoft wouldn't let me purchase and download a software upgrade because it knew my computer was in China. That was Microsoft 2010, I believe (I have Macs and PCs, but the Mac is my principal system; just bought a new Air and will upgrade my iMac when the new ones show up next spring). The same thing happened a couple of years ago when I tried to buy a security program for my Dell; I don't remember who, but probably McAfee. iTunes has also questioned my account validity a couple of times when my VPN was off, and sometimes I cannot download MSNBC, Face the Nation, Etc., podcasts without the VPN.

The VPN also allows me to choose which city and country my computer is perceived to be in, so if I want to buy something that can only be sold in the UK, for example, I can do it.

Corkcampbell said:

most affluent users are retired folks using aging machines running XP. They only use their machines for their investments, don't keep up with anti-virus programs, Etc., and don't always upgrade their security patches.

Those people are the perfect targets, whereas Apple computers attract a lot of students who have no wealth or loaded bank accounts to access, but who maintain their security and tend to have the newer operating systems.

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You have a source for those demographics or are you just making this up?

--
Jim
'There are no rules for good photographs, there are only good photographs.'

• • Ansel Adams

Interesting, thanks. I especially like the looks of the disk monitoring feature.

MrMojo said:

I have used LittleSnitch for years but I now prefer Hands Off: it has more features and costs $5 less than LS. (LittleSnitch users can "cross-grade" for $9.95.)

Hands Off and LittleSnitch Comparison Chart: http://www.metakine.com/products/handsoff/

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but that is not true. I work for a university and we cannot access some levels of the Moodle system without a VPN. This is based on servers outside of London and is where we input the grades and other sensitive data.

nothing new. There was an article recently, but I don't remember where - maybe Men's Journal. The WSJ also covers this from time to time because of its reader base. The hackers, Etc., go for the least protected, but lucrative, targets, and often they are the ones who know little of security, use older machines and operating systems, but also who offer the higher potential reward.

I used to work in IT for an insurance company and it was a continual hassle of educating our older workers in management that their aging Dells with Windows 98, XP, or whatever were not safe. Often these people, with hundreds of thousands of dollars in their 401s alone, would remark: "Why should I upgrade; I only use it for my finances?" These people often didn't even know how to type, because they didn't learn it in school and always had a secretary. Now, they are retired, but are still relatively clueless about protecting themselves, even though they may have been brilliant in using off-shore captives to fund insurance losses.

That job was a few years ago and now I am almost retired myself (work for a university), but I still try to keep up with security for my own reasons and that is why I like to read the stories about the models that are the most successful. It's actually very interesting. Related examples that I also like to keep up with would be how email, identity-theft, and other kinds of scams, are aimed at retirees in Florida, or the over sixty crowd in general.

The business model for such an attack is not going to focus on some undergraduate with a recently purchased, and therefore more secure, $1,000 MacBook, a credit card with a limit of $2,000, and a hard drive full of bittorrent movies.

Today's AppleInsider just posted an article that says that Apple took a 8.7% share in the 4th quarter (U.S.). Ah, I'm not making that up either, by the way. Well, that includes the back-to-school crowd (and my own Air upgrade, and my MacBook, with the required pink keyboard cover, gift to a girlfriend). It would be interesting to see how much of that was due to notebook sales to students. Again, this would not be a group that I would be targeting, unless they happened to have their grandparents' passwords on their drives...

Corkcampbell said:

most affluent users are retired folks using aging machines running XP. They only use their machines for their investments, don't keep up with anti-virus programs, Etc., and don't always upgrade their security patches.

Those people are the perfect targets, whereas Apple computers attract a lot of students who have no wealth or loaded bank accounts to access, but who maintain their security and tend to have the newer operating systems.

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I'm sure there's a lot of truth to the first paragraph, because I've met many of them, but the second paragraph is a gross oversimplification. I've met many seniors who have Macs because they're easier to maintain and run into less trouble generally, and a lot of seniors are attracted to a machine they perceive to be the simplest computer to run.

That's changing, now that the iPad is out seniors really like that one.

You can see a current list of Keyloggers, Trojan Horses, Scareware, Remote Administration, and Exploits at

http://macscan.securemac.com/spyware-list

http://www.iantivirus.com/threats/

It is possible for someone who has access to your machine to put these on your machine. I know of cases where employees have used them against other employees.

There have been trojan horses included in pirated versions of iwork and photoshop for OSX.

Also if anyone has ever went to watch a video on your computer, and it said to install a codec or download something, its possible that at that time one of these was installed instead.

A very good website on mac security is:
http://www.securemac.com/

Two free osx AntiVirus etc programs
http://www.clamxav.com/

You can what clamxav looks for here:
http://clamav-du.securesites.net/cgi-bin/clamgrok
For instance type "osx" in the search box.

http://www.iantivirus.com/

There is a free Boonana Trojan removal at:
http://www.securemac.com/boonana/

It is on social media networks at when you click a link that asks you to look at a video it installs.

Free iServices iWorkSevices (was in pirated Photoshop CS4 and iWork) removal tool:
http://macscan.securemac.com/free-iservices-trojan-removal-tool-11-released/

http://macscan.securemac.com/iworkservices-trojan-horse-removal-tool-free-psa-tool-for-mac-os-x

Free DNSChanger removal tools
http://www.dnschanger.com/

If you run Parallels or Virtual Box, or another virtual machine on your Mac, and you have shared folders, you could get a Windows infection and damage your Mac files.

--
Mario Alessi

Leon Wittwer said:

You statement is rather silly and uninformed. Name a single successful Mac OS attack. There have not been any unless the attacker had some access to the actual computer. Apple is also good at issuing security updates as potential threats arise.
--
Leon
http://web.me.com/leonwittwer/landscapes.htm

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There have been no wide spread attacks, but there have been vulnerabilities that where remote, and local ones allowing root access. Combining both an attacker could have remotely gained root access to any mac. Further, this has not been a single isolated incident, it has happened a few times.

Now I work as a programmer in a post production team where we fix such problems when they arise, and I understand this is unavoidable. however it's also important to understand all discovered vulnerabilities are not exploited right away, sometimes you can make more money buy selling the exploit to somebody who will use it on one off attacks.

My main point is that osx is definitely vulnerable to attacks, and the fact that such attacks have not happened is not a good indicator that they will not happen in the future.

Personally I have antivirus on my work mac. The main reason is that otherwise I could forward an Office or PDF document to a Windows user who would be infected. At home I don't run antivirus because I believe the likelihood of a current mac antivirus product detecting a mac virus immediately is pretty low, I would probably hear about it on the news before getting an update that would protect me.

However programs you have installed are a bigger risk then the operatingsystem. Flash does not update automatically on osx and it's one of the most vulnerable applications whatever the platform. Java (as mentioned) is also a big risk...

mario alessi said:

You can see a current list of Keyloggers, Trojan Horses, Scareware, Remote Administration, and Exploits at

http://macscan.securemac.com/spyware-list

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An admin password is required.

mario alessi said:

http://www.iantivirus.com/threats/

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A lot of what iAntivirus claims are threats are not valid. Most of the OS X ones they list have long been patched and they even list 20 year old viruses that ran on System 7 and haven't been an issue since then. Pure sleaze.

mario alessi said:

It is possible for someone who has access to your machine to put these on your machine. I know of cases where employees have used them against other employees.

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Only if someone else knows your admin password, and if they do, you have bigger problems.

mario alessi said:

There have been trojan horses included in pirated versions of iwork and photoshop for OSX.

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Don't pirate software and that problem is solved.

mario alessi said:

Also if anyone has ever went to watch a video on your computer, and it said to install a codec or download something, its possible that at that time one of these was installed instead.

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Typically from porn sites, and it requires an admin password to be installed. You can't get infected merely by going to the web site.

Bottom line: Don't just type in your admin password whenever asked. Think about why something might need it.

kamina said:

There have been no wide spread attacks, but there have been vulnerabilities that where remote, and local ones allowing root access. Combining both an attacker could have remotely gained root access to any mac. Further, this has not been a single isolated incident, it has happened a few times.

Now I work as a programmer in a post production team where we fix such problems when they arise, and I understand this is unavoidable. however it's also important to understand all discovered vulnerabilities are not exploited right away, sometimes you can make more money buy selling the exploit to somebody who will use it on one off attacks.

My main point is that osx is definitely vulnerable to attacks, and the fact that such attacks have not happened is not a good indicator that they will not happen in the future.

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I'm speaking in practical terms. There are folks out there that have contests to see it they can attack a Mac system. So far, none have succeeded without some access to the computer. Every once in a while, there is a claim but all, to my knowledge, have been debunked. Perhaps there will be some successful attacks in the future but I think you should try to explain why they have not occurred in a system that, as you say, is definitely vulnerable to attack.

kamina said:

Personally I have antivirus on my work mac. The main reason is that otherwise I could forward an Office or PDF document to a Windows user who would be infected. At home I don't run antivirus because I believe the likelihood of a current mac antivirus product detecting a mac virus immediately is pretty low, I would probably hear about it on the news before getting an update that would protect me.

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Yes, that is a good reason to have an antivirus. You can pass infected material on.

kamina said:

However programs you have installed are a bigger risk then the operatingsystem. Flash does not update automatically on osx and it's one of the most vulnerable applications whatever the platform. Java (as mentioned) is also a big risk...

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Agree with this.

--
Leon
http://web.me.com/leonwittwer/landscapes.htm

mario alessi said:

You can see a current list of Keyloggers, Trojan Horses, Scareware, Remote Administration, and Exploits at

http://macscan.securemac.com/spyware-list

http://www.iantivirus.com/threats/

Click to expand...

Perhaps, but these are not viruses and require you to do something to install them.

Steve

Johanfoto said:

Steve Ives said:

smalltimewine said:

In general, the Mac OS has good security, but it has more vulnerabilities than the competition.

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This is contradiction - you can't have both!

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Actually, you can. If you leave the front door of your house unlocked, you are more vulnerable to theft than someone who does lock the door. But if you live in a small and quiet community, that has never seen any theft, you are still more secure than anyone who lives in the big city and does lock up.

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I don't think that's a valid analogy. You're implying the the Mac has good security (doors and windows) but that the users disable these features (leave them unlocked) but it doesn't matter because the bad guys don't look at Macs. The scenario you describe may be correct for houses, but it doesn't explain the apparently contradictory statement of 'good security, but it has more vulnerabilities'. If an OS has 'far more vulnerabilities', then, relatively speaking (OS X Vs. Windows), it doesn't have good security.

Johanfoto said:

Johanfoto said:

Johanfoto said:

However, the Mac OS, due mostly to its lower market share, has fewer threats,

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Pure conjecture, and, I think, inaccurate. The kudos someone would gain from creating OS X's first true virus would outweigh the smaller impact due to market share.

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Ten years ago, I would have agreed fully. But virus writing has changed. It's true that the average 'script kiddy' would still be temped to try, just for the eternal fame. But virus writing is usually a commercial affair nowadays, and then market share does matter to get the impact you want.

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Perhaps for the bank scammers etc, but are you saying that no-one wants the kudos of being able to say "I created the first true OS X self-replicating no-user-intervention virus" because there's not enough money in it? I don't buy it nor do I believe that it's 'common wisdom' that there are no OS X viruses because there's no money in it.

Steve