Interesting "side effect" of manual focus

Hi,

Recently bought a Samyang 85 1.4 with manual focus only. Shooting at or close to wide open requires a lot of attention to get the focus point right - so not for fast action shots. However, what I noticed was that because I have to spend more time getting the focus right I start to pay a lot more attention to the background and the composition of the image. With my autofocus lenses I had a tendency to snap away.So although I am limited from some shots with this lens I do find that it is improving my overall photography skills.

So if you are on a learning curve like I am it could be worth to keep in mind if considering a manual focus lense.

PS. Of course you can switch most AF lenses to MF, but you would face a lot of temptation to switch back just to capture a particular scene. The lack of AF option inforces the discipline

Best regards,

Christoffer

Interesting observation. Thanks for sharing it. I have never worked with manual focus lenses except for when I manually made enlargements in the dark room. After reading your post I am seriously thinking about getting a manual focus lens. I guess it wouldnt work if I just turned off the focusing on my AF lens. (There is a psychological aspect to what you are saying and its interesting because I just finished watching the docudrama freakonomics)

i think the same thing happens when using a prime lens. if you are forced to use a certain focal length you can't just lean against the crutch of being able to zoom. it forces you to think more about composition. so if you have a 35mm prime, you are forced to move with your feet and position your camera in such a way that frames your subject the way you want. if you have an 18-200mm zoom, you just turn the zoom lens until the subject looks "about right" and then take a picture.

SNGX1327 said:

i think the same thing happens when using a prime lens. if you are forced to use a certain focal length you can't just lean against the crutch of being able to zoom. it forces you to think more about composition. so if you have a 35mm prime, you are forced to move with your feet and position your camera in such a way that frames your subject the way you want. if you have an 18-200mm zoom, you just turn the zoom lens until the subject looks "about right" and then take a picture.

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Also very true. People who never shoot with prime lenses are missing on developing the key skill of MOVING. (My hero Scott Kelby says this too)

That "side effect" is always given as a great reason for using large format cameras -- you need to slow down and think about what you're doing.

I'm thinking about getting one of those Samyang 85 f/1.4 also. I wish they made a 105. I think I'll get a replacement focusing screen with a split image first. I already have a manual-only 50 f/1.4, and my 80-200 doesn't AF on my body.

Christoffer said:

Hi,

Recently bought a Samyang 85 1.4 with manual focus only. Shooting at or close to wide open requires a lot of attention to get the focus point right - so not for fast action shots. However, what I noticed was that because I have to spend more time getting the focus right I start to pay a lot more attention to the background and the composition of the image. With my autofocus lenses I had a tendency to snap away.So although I am limited from some shots with this lens I do find that it is improving my overall photography skills.

So if you are on a learning curve like I am it could be worth to keep in mind if considering a manual focus lense.

PS. Of course you can switch most AF lenses to MF, but you would face a lot of temptation to switch back just to capture a particular scene. The lack of AF option inforces the discipline

Best regards,

Christoffer

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I've observed this EXACT same phenomenon when I moved from a slow AF lens to... yes, the Samyang 85 1.4 (and later Nikon 50/1.8 and 35/1.4... all AI-S).

You spend time getting the subject exactly in focus instead of blasting away. I know friends who get a fast AF lens and just "expect" it to perfectly focus on what they want (they don't pay attention to the posistion of the AF point)... and then they complain about how their photos aren't focused correctly. I'm sorry but where that point is CRUCIAL... and with manual focus lenses it only accentuates this!

People go way too fast when it comes to taking pictures. I'm sorry, but you can't get them all. And when you work at it to get something perfectly captured, not only are the results better but you feel good about yourself for the work you have done.

Colin Stuart said:

Christoffer said:

Hi,

Recently bought a Samyang 85 1.4 with manual focus only. Shooting at or close to wide open requires a lot of attention to get the focus point right - so not for fast action shots. However, what I noticed was that because I have to spend more time getting the focus right I start to pay a lot more attention to the background and the composition of the image. With my autofocus lenses I had a tendency to snap away.So although I am limited from some shots with this lens I do find that it is improving my overall photography skills.

So if you are on a learning curve like I am it could be worth to keep in mind if considering a manual focus lense.

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The learning curve is infinite, you did'nt buy a beginners lens, its yours forever to learn on.

colinstu said:

colinstu said:

PS. Of course you can switch most AF lenses to MF, but you would face a lot of temptation to switch back just to capture a particular scene. The lack of AF option inforces the discipline

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Its a skill most amateur AF users ignore. Even with an AF lens there are times it would be faster to MF but they don't even think of it and yet the Pros know what its for.

colinstu said:

I've observed this EXACT same phenomenon when I moved from a slow AF lens to... yes, the Samyang 85 1.4 (and later Nikon 50/1.8 and 35/1.4... all AI-S).

You spend time getting the subject exactly in focus instead of blasting away. I know friends who get a fast AF lens and just "expect" it to perfectly focus on what they want (they don't pay attention to the posistion of the AF point)... and then they complain about how their photos aren't focused correctly. I'm sorry but where that point is CRUCIAL... and with manual focus lenses it only accentuates this!

People go way too fast when it comes to taking pictures. I'm sorry, but you can't get them all. And when you work at it to get something perfectly captured, not only are the results better but you feel good about yourself for the work you have done.

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and for all that effort and pleasure you want a nice lens and even better if you enjoy MF so much then you really take pleasure in a lens that was designed for it and is a joy to use ...
You can't have your argument and eat it too Colin.

back on topic ....

I love MF, Im nutz (and nutz) about street and while I don't know the Samyang I know the fun you are having.
Rather than Manual Focus I prefer the term Selective Focus

And the other bit you are all missing ...MF is sharp, I've seen too many good AF lenses leave me thinking ...Gee its a bit soft isnt it?

So Colin, why wouldn't you pay for the best experience of MF lenses ...and while we are at it, not just the best but take a look at the Nikon 20,28,35 & 50 and see that there is a reason people pay money to get away from these awful lenses.

Christoffer said:

Recently bought a Samyang 85 1.4 with manual focus only. Shooting at or close to wide open requires a lot of attention to get the focus point right - so not for fast action shots. However, what I noticed was that because I have to spend more time getting the focus right I start to pay a lot more attention to the background and the composition of the image. With my autofocus lenses I had a tendency to snap away. So although I am limited from some shots with this lens I do find that it is improving my overall photography skills.

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Yes, you have bought a lens with limitations. It is only manual focus which removes a common flexibility with AF lenses. There is nothing wrong with that since it probably cost less than an AF version.

Christoffer said:

So if you are on a learning curve like I am it could be worth to keep in mind if considering a manual focus lenses.

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No, that is a wrong conclusion. What is logic is that considering a MF lens can save some money but sacrificing flexibility and speed. I do believe that being aware of the need to compose the image and control the background is the important thing. You don’t need a MF lens to do these things.

Christoffer said:

PS. Of course you can switch most AF lenses to MF, but you would face a lot of temptation to switch back just to capture a particular scene. The lack of AF option enforces the discipline

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Do you know of any AF lens that cannot be switched to MF? I don't. In fact for those who want to practise MF they are completely free to do so at any time, but still have the flexibility to go back to AF. Many people pay for that flexibility. The lack of AF is a serious drawback and slows you down. In addition I do believe that the number of keepers will go down with a MF 85/1.4 compared to a similar AF version at wide apertures.

Edit:

I flamed back, but then I realized you've been trolling everyone.

I have recently been using manual focus almost all the time.

I find that autofocus tends to influence my framing and composition, and tends to distract me just that extra little bit from the business of seeing. I feel much more free when I focus manually, and I can rely just on when something 'looks right'. Of course I miss focus more often. But in another more important sense, I hit it more often photographically.

I've been challenging myself to fast follow action subjects with manual focus on a 105/2.5, and the more I do it, the better I'm getting at it.

Christoffer said:

Hi,

Recently bought a Samyang 85 1.4 with manual focus only. Shooting at or close to wide open requires a lot of attention to get the focus point right - so not for fast action shots. However, what I noticed was that because I have to spend more time getting the focus right I start to pay a lot more attention to the background and the composition of the image. With my autofocus lenses I had a tendency to snap away.So although I am limited from some shots with this lens I do find that it is improving my overall photography skills.

So if you are on a learning curve like I am it could be worth to keep in mind if considering a manual focus lense.

PS. Of course you can switch most AF lenses to MF, but you would face a lot of temptation to switch back just to capture a particular scene. The lack of AF option inforces the discipline

Best regards,

Christoffer

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I definitely agree, manual focusing (especially with fast primes) is very fun and rewarding. It helps you slow down a bit, and think about things. (Sure you can do the same thing with a AF zoom, but for those like me who have poor self control, it helps to be forced into it).

I strongly recommend a split prism focusing screen. It gives you a lot more accuracy than you can get without one (even if you use the electronic rangefinder, IMHO), and even with AF lenses a properly calibrated focus screen can help you confirm that you are properly focused.

I just bought an 85/1.8D, and although I expect that I will use it a lot for fast moving situations, I still anticipate using my other MF lenses when I have some time to sit back and enjoy photography.

Cheers
--
--Wyatt
http://photos.digitalcave.ca
All images (c) unless otherwise specified, please ask me before editing.

I use both manual focus lens and AF lens. If I am going to be trying to shoot action shots, it is hard to beat a AF lens. But like others have pointed out, AF is not perfect. I find that the more I practice and shoot with old AIS lens, the quicker I get at focusing and really getting the shot I want, instead of dealing with the AF searching for the focus. But I agree with what has been said about manual focus being a 'limiting' factor in some situations. My older lens have to be shot with complete manual, so focus is only one aspect of what needs to be done for the shot. It can be hard to get the settings right and get a shot on a moving subject. But something stationary, I prefer manual everything. I love my 100mm 2.8 ais. Pretty fun to manually control the aperature and focus and get wonderful results.

I just ordered the 85mm 1.4 samyang(rokinon). For $254 dollars, I will be perfectly happy with manual, compared to $1,200 for the Nikon 85 1.4. If I money was no concern, I would buy the nikon 85mm1.4 in a second but that is a lot of money for me. I have read some amazing reviews about the samyang1.4, so I have to give it a try. With the nikon 4 times more expensive, it seems like a good idea for my budget. The worst I could do is not really like it and be out $250 but at least I will be able to pay my bills this month

Shoot manual. It is good practice and keeps your eye sharp and keeps you from depending on the AF for your sharpness. But slap a AF lens on when you need that quick focus(or turn off the AF and have manual Either or, it is all good as long as you are having fun and learning more about photography.

Hi,

Interesting you are using MF only for street photography. I assume that is with a 35mm or equiv lense? It must take some practice capturing street moments with MF?

Best regards,

Christoffer

Hey,

Just to clarify the background, my purchase decision path was not based on MF. I was recommended the Nikon 85 1.8 and just before pulling the trigger on that I noticed a big discussion on 1.4 vs 1.8, bokeh, etc. and I noticed the Samyang 85 1.4 had received very good feedback. The 85 1.4 Nikon is too expensive for me so I was willing to take a bet trading off AF in the Nikon 1.8 for MF and considerably better image quality in the Samyang 1.4 - at a very attractive price.

As stated in my original post, I see it as an added benefit from the MF process that I start thinking much more about fore- and background and composition. I have not had that benefit from my previous AF/MF lenses mostly relying on AF.

To me, the Samyang 85 1.4 is not only a lense with very good image quality but also a tool "provoking" me to think more about the basic virtues of image composition, etc.

Best regards,

Christoffer

Christoffer said:

Hi,

Interesting you are using MF only for street photography. I assume that is with a 35mm or equiv lense? It must take some practice capturing street moments with MF?

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Not so odd when you consider all the film users that prefer MF, the Leica and RF users. There is a lot of MF in street. Focus is not as critical as in some pursuits but I can only count maybe 7-12 misses in my 1.5years and they were nothing to begin with.

no, it just happened, just took to it like water (or beer)

zeiss 21,28,35,50/2 &100 and 50/1.2ais. My eyes are pretty poor too, wear glasses and hate the magnifiers, A katzeye is nice, so too is a rubber eyecup, eyecup should be purchased by all, a great accessory and gives you a better image in the viewfinder.

lots more here
http://www.flickr.com/photos/oneant/sets/72157624934192197/

The olds that poo MF here are the oddest, they cannot believe MF could have any use and are determined to tell you. Im glad its not a walking forum we would be inundated with talk of electric scooters and how walking is over rated

Bob GB said:

No, that is a wrong conclusion. What is logic is that considering a MF lens can save some money but sacrificing flexibility and speed.

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Yes, very illogical. So I wonder why I bought a Zeiss 50mm f2 makro rather than a Nikon 50mm f1.4 for half the price?
Actually, I don't wonder at all!

--
http://www.andrewsandersphotography.co.uk

If you're committing to a manual focus lens, and concerned with good rendering, why not get the Nikkor 85 f/1.4 AIs?

Christoffer said:

Hey,

Just to clarify the background, my purchase decision path was not based on MF. I was recommended the Nikon 85 1.8 and just before pulling the trigger on that I noticed a big discussion on 1.4 vs 1.8, bokeh, etc. and I noticed the Samyang 85 1.4 had received very good feedback. The 85 1.4 Nikon is too expensive for me so I was willing to take a bet trading off AF in the Nikon 1.8 for MF and considerably better image quality in the Samyang 1.4 - at a very attractive price.

As stated in my original post, I see it as an added benefit from the MF process that I start thinking much more about fore- and background and composition. I have not had that benefit from my previous AF/MF lenses mostly relying on AF.

To me, the Samyang 85 1.4 is not only a lense with very good image quality but also a tool "provoking" me to think more about the basic virtues of image composition, etc.

Best regards,

Christoffer

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slimandy said:

Yes, very illogical. So I wonder why I bought a Zeiss 50mm f2 makro rather than a Nikon 50mm f1.4 for half the price?
Actually, I don't wonder at all!

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I am sure your 50/2.0 is very good optically. But in the case of the OP his 85/1.4 was bought because of price in the first place. But buying a MF lens in order to learn photography is illogical, IMHO.

I agree on the OP's observation. It is a lot like auto-exposure, auto Iso, auto WB and all other automated things; it does tend to be easy, fast en more or less reliable, which is often very conveniant. But it also tends to keep you from thinking about what you are actualy doing. In some fields, auto-everything is needed or at least very helpfull (try shooting a tennis match, and you will love auto AF). In many other fields, it pays to switch off the automat and start to think for yourself.

Making your own decisions helps you to get pictures you want, and sets you off against the herd. And a lens (or camera) without automation forces you to take that step, which makes it a little easier (most of us need some encouragement to do things in a less easy way). Just make sure you are not shooting a tennis match ;-)

The biggest drawback of manual focussing is that most modern camera's are no longer optimized for MF; as The Big One already wrote, a replacement screen might be worth while. Not only will the split- or micro prism help getting focus right, but the rest of the screen will also show blur/bokeh better then most modern screens.

I went with the 85 1.4 despite the MF and not because of the MF - prioritizing image quality above AF. The learnings I am getting are "interesting side effects" as noted.

And yes, maybe I should have gone for the AIS lense instead - was not aware of that option.

Point is, that MF should not scare you away - there are lots of benefits as also mentioned in other posts.

Best regards,

Christoffer