A couple of simple Objective experiments on an SD9

Karl Guttag

Veteran Member
Messages
3,691
Reaction score
2
Location
Plano United States, TX, US
Below I am proposing a couple of simple experiments for those with a SD9 to try. I think they would help get things onto a more objective basis.

There are a couple of problems that most everybody agrees on seeing in the SD9 images, one is “Dust” and the other is Vanishing saturated Reds/Oranges/Magentas.

EXPERIMENT 1: WHERE IS THE DUST?

There is a simple experiment to run to determine approximately where the dust is located. Basically all you have to do is go into Aperture Preferred mode and set the Exposure for +1 (since you will be shooting at the sky). Then point toward the sky and shoot a picture at F2.8, F5.6, F11, and F22. Then (optional), if the camera will support it, take off the lens and at a high shutter speed (this may take some trial and error to get the shutter speed high enough to no overexpose).

The “shadow” caste by dust is a function of the distance from the sensor and the F-number. The more you stop down (higher F-number) the sharper the dust will become. If the dust is more than a centimeter from the Sensor it will not cast a discernable shadow at F2.8, but if it is about a centimeter away it will cast one at say F11. Basically you can figure out how far the dust is away from the sensor by what F-number it appears at. The smaller the F-number for it to appear, the closer the dust is to the sensor.

BTW, dust in the lens or even on the "dust protector" is way to far away from the sensor to image sharply. The fact that dust is showing up on F8 shots, suggests that it is near or in the sensor.

IF without a lens at all the camera Dust is “sharp,” then this suggests that the dust in either on the surface of the sensor (permanently encapsulated with the device) OR the pixel is dead. Even at F2.8, if the dust is sharp it suggests a dead or permanently blocked pixel.

The “take a picture of the sky at F16” is something that everyone that is checking their camera for Dust does, because it is known that stopping down the lens makes the dust stand out. This is something any DSLR owner (of any brand) should do regularly to check for the accumulation of dust. It would also be interesting to see if the "Dust" gets worse or stays the same over time.

EXPERIMENT 2: Do Saturated Colors Blow Out Worse than other Cameras?

I think most everyone agrees that the SD9 has some strange problems with light sources, but there is also evidence (say the “horse track picture” with the blown out traffic cone) that it has problems with brightly lit saturated colors. What may some times thought to be “specular reflections” (white due to light refection) may in fact be color blow outs. This experiment is designed to see how sensitive the SD9 is to blowing out colors. A simple way to get a variety of intensities is to take a Curve or Spherical object (either bright red or bright orange, we know that traffic cones “work”) and illuminated it primarily from one side. This will cause a gradient type of shading. Take a close up picture of the object over a range of exposures (exposure bracketing. If possible, do the same with another brand of camera so that people can compare the results.

It would be nice to run the experiment with different colors. Red/Orange/Magenta seems to be a particular problem for the SD9, it would be interesting to see what other colors do.

I tried to “construct” tests that would be quick and easy to run and has a good chance of giving some objective results. The “Where is the Dust?” test is particularly easy to run and I am surprised nobody has done it yet.

Karl
 
Below I am proposing a couple of simple experiments for those with
a SD9 to try. I think they would help get things onto a more
objective basis.

There are a couple of problems that most everybody agrees on seeing
in the SD9 images, one is “Dust” and the other is Vanishing
saturated Reds/Oranges/Magentas.

EXPERIMENT 1: WHERE IS THE DUST?

There is a simple experiment to run to determine approximately
where the dust is located. Basically all you have to do is go into
Aperture Preferred mode and set the Exposure for +1 (since you will
be shooting at the sky). Then point toward the sky and shoot a
picture at F2.8, F5.6, F11, and F22. Then (optional), if the
camera will support it, take off the lens and at a high shutter
speed (this may take some trial and error to get the shutter speed
high enough to no overexpose).

The “shadow” caste by dust is a function of the distance from the
sensor and the F-number. The more you stop down (higher F-number)
the sharper the dust will become. If the dust is more than a
centimeter from the Sensor it will not cast a discernable shadow at
F2.8, but if it is about a centimeter away it will cast one at say
F11. Basically you can figure out how far the dust is away from
the sensor by what F-number it appears at. The smaller the
F-number for it to appear, the closer the dust is to the sensor.

BTW, dust in the lens or even on the "dust protector" is way to far
away from the sensor to image sharply. The fact that dust is
showing up on F8 shots, suggests that it is near or in the sensor.

IF without a lens at all the camera Dust is “sharp,” then this
suggests that the dust in either on the surface of the sensor
(permanently encapsulated with the device) OR the pixel is dead.
Even at F2.8, if the dust is sharp it suggests a dead or
permanently blocked pixel.

The “take a picture of the sky at F16” is something that everyone
that is checking their camera for Dust does, because it is known
that stopping down the lens makes the dust stand out. This is
something any DSLR owner (of any brand) should do regularly to
check for the accumulation of dust. It would also be interesting
to see if the "Dust" gets worse or stays the same over time.

EXPERIMENT 2: Do Saturated Colors Blow Out Worse than other Cameras?

I think most everyone agrees that the SD9 has some strange problems
with light sources, but there is also evidence (say the “horse
track picture” with the blown out traffic cone) that it has
problems with brightly lit saturated colors. What may some times
thought to be “specular reflections” (white due to light refection)
may in fact be color blow outs. This experiment is designed to
see how sensitive the SD9 is to blowing out colors. A simple way
to get a variety of intensities is to take a Curve or Spherical
object (either bright red or bright orange, we know that traffic
cones “work”) and illuminated it primarily from one side. This
will cause a gradient type of shading. Take a close up picture
of the object over a range of exposures (exposure bracketing. If
possible, do the same with another brand of camera so that people
can compare the results.

It would be nice to run the experiment with different colors.
Red/Orange/Magenta seems to be a particular problem for the SD9, it
would be interesting to see what other colors do.

I tried to “construct” tests that would be quick and easy to run
and has a good chance of giving some objective results. The
“Where is the Dust?” test is particularly easy to run and I am
surprised nobody has done it yet.

Karl
Excellent Karl,

This is indeed very useful information, thank you.

--
Regards,
Gavin
Canon Pro90IS, B-300 Canon Pro 70
 
I tried to “construct” tests that would be quick and easy to run
and has a good chance of giving some objective results. The
“Where is the Dust?” test is particularly easy to run and I am
surprised nobody has done it yet.
I did manage to get this pic - and it shows quite well the dust is clear (not blurry) at a higher f-number -

http://www.pbase.com/image/7412657

What do you make of this?

Also you can see lots more - smaller dust particles...

Please note what Sigma told me about this here - in this thread:

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1027&message=3785925

So - I am happy to see them address the issue (with me anyway) and offer to help me when I am ready to have it fixed....

Thanks for the suggestion - and at least I got to Experiment #1 (in a round-about way!)

=)
Sam

--
Sam Pyrtle
F707 Owner & Lover
Sigma SD9 Owner & Lover
[email protected]

http://www3.photosig.com/viewuser.php?id=11179 (Sony Shots)
http://www.pbase.com/keysh2oboy/root (Sigma SD9 Shots)
 
What do you make of this?
Also you can see lots more - smaller dust particles...
I am far from being a dust expert, but I must say that shot looks almost as bad as it was scanned for an uncleaned scanner. ;p

But what is also interesting is, aside from a few of the larger spots, there are a lot that seems to be in the size of 4x4 pixels with some even at 2x2 pixels. Thats 36 uM or 0.036mm.

Question I have here for Sam is, even tho Sigma indicates they have a dust protector, does the protector have any gasket sealing itself between the camera body? If there is none, while it may prevent hair fragments and such, it isnt going to prevent dust particles. Dust particles of that sizes can very easy make their way into the camera body and onto the sensor surface from the gap.

I do also have a question for Karl. We know dust can get on the sensor quite easy during the normal assembly line process. But is it ready easy for dust to get "in" the sensor? I mean, dont mfg'ers like NSC make the chips in a clean room? You know, one of those where they have everyone wearing those space suits. ;p

--
jc
Sony F707
http://www.reefkeepers.org/gallery/f707
http://www.reeftec.com/gallery
 
What do you make of this?
Also you can see lots more - smaller dust particles...
I am far from being a dust expert, but I must say that shot looks
almost as bad as it was scanned for an uncleaned scanner. ;p
I agree - that higher f-stop really showed the larger piece better - and also a myriad of smaller, usually unseen pieces.
But what is also interesting is, aside from a few of the larger
spots, there are a lot that seems to be in the size of 4x4 pixels
with some even at 2x2 pixels. Thats 36 uM or 0.036mm.

Question I have here for Sam is, even tho Sigma indicates they have
a dust protector, does the protector have any gasket sealing itself
between the camera body? If there is none, while it may prevent
hair fragments and such, it isn't going to prevent dust particles.
Dust particles of that sizes can very easy make their way into the
camera body and onto the sensor surface from the gap.
Having removed the dust protector and played with the camera to try to clean it - I am pretty confident that the dust protector will work -

It does not have a 'seal' around the edges - but it does have 'grooves' it fits into and then screws in place to create a good seal.
I do also have a question for Karl. We know dust can get on the
sensor quite easy during the normal assembly line process. But is
it ready easy for dust to get "in" the sensor? I mean, don't mfg'ers
like NSC make the chips in a clean room? You know, one of those
where they have everyone wearing those space suits. ;p
My thought is this:

The dust comes from the camera production - not he sensor production. In other words - they create the sensor, put a clear coating of some sort on top of the ACTUAL sensor - so nothing can get on it, in it, etc.

And then the sensor is placed in the camera and another, clear cover (made of glass, plastic, etc) is placed in front of the sensor - practically on top of the sensor - but with just enough space to allow very small dust particles left over from the camera production to get between the sensor and this glass/plastic cover.

And no amount of blowing it with air will remove them - the space between the sensor and this glass cover is SOOO small that once something gets in - it is impossible to 'blow' out, and the glass will then need to be removed and cleaned (by Sigma).

Now - if they would clean the camera good BEFORE installing the sensor this problem would be solved - again, in my opinion...

Because I would find it hard to imagine that dust, hairs, lint, etc would ever be able to get BEHIND the dust protector... AND.... then get BEHIND the glass covering the sensor.

I think the dust cover is a great idea - and will work well... But the Quality Control prior to assembling the dust cover MUST be heightened.

So - this is what I think - but I cannot say 100% this is what is going on. Just some conjecture after speaking to several people and Sigma USA.

I hope this is helpful - and I am sure it will all be worked out ASAP! Sigma knows this is a hot issue.

=)
Sam

--
Sam Pyrtle
F707 Owner & Lover
Sigma SD9 Owner & Lover
[email protected]

http://www3.photosig.com/viewuser.php?id=11179 (Sony Shots)
http://www.pbase.com/keysh2oboy/root (Sigma SD9 Shots)
 
I have suspected that one gets dust or small bits of material on the sensor without actually taking the lens off. I found that on my S1 Pro. I suspected that the mirror was kicking up dust that was inside the camera body everytime it went up and down like a fan. If the camera body is not perfectly clean inside, this will surely occur. Also, there might be a baffle material that the mirror hits that might degrade and send of very small particles. To me, this dust problem is a killer for the SD-9. Terrible. TJ
 
Having removed the dust protector and played with the camera to try
to clean it - I am pretty confident that the dust protector will
work -

It does not have a 'seal' around the edges - but it does have
'grooves' it fits into and then screws in place to create a good
seal.
So while it doesnt have a total seal, it doesnt have a semi seal. I was thinking that in the case if it doesnt, one can simply place a thin strip of foam string (like one of those bday party web things) and hence create seal. But it sounds like it may not be necessary.
And then the sensor is placed in the camera and another, clear
cover (made of glass, plastic, etc) is placed in front of the
sensor - practically on top of the sensor - but with just enough
space to allow very small dust particles left over from the camera
production to get between the sensor and this glass/plastic cover.

And no amount of blowing it with air will remove them - the space
between the sensor and this glass cover is SOOO small that once
something gets in - it is impossible to 'blow' out, and the glass
will then need to be removed and cleaned (by Sigma).
Ahh, this is interesting information to know. So the 3rd area makes it "in" the sensor, but not really in the sensor. It is "in" the sensor as its an area that we cannot clean with common method, but it is not in the sensor as it still can be removed by Sigma.
Now - if they would clean the camera good BEFORE installing the
sensor this problem would be solved - again, in my opinion...
Or have this process done under a much cleaner environment, ie: at the chip mfg'g plant.
I think the dust cover is a great idea - and will work well... But
the Quality Control prior to assembling the dust cover MUST be
heightened.
It seems so.
I hope this is helpful - and I am sure it will all be worked out
ASAP! Sigma knows this is a hot issue.
I read they have already offered to clean your camera. That is a good thing to know.

Out of this, it seems a high f-stop shot should be one of the first things we test for just to get an idea if the sensor packaging is clean.

--
jc
Sony F707
http://www.reefkeepers.org/gallery/f707
http://www.reeftec.com/gallery
 
Having removed the dust protector and played with the camera to try
to clean it - I am pretty confident that the dust protector will
work -

It does not have a 'seal' around the edges - but it does have
'grooves' it fits into and then screws in place to create a good
seal.
So while it doesnt have a total seal, it doesnt have a semi seal. I
was thinking that in the case if it doesnt, one can simply place a
thin strip of foam string (like one of those bday party web things)
and hence create seal. But it sounds like it may not be necessary.
And then the sensor is placed in the camera and another, clear
cover (made of glass, plastic, etc) is placed in front of the
sensor - practically on top of the sensor - but with just enough
space to allow very small dust particles left over from the camera
production to get between the sensor and this glass/plastic cover.

And no amount of blowing it with air will remove them - the space
between the sensor and this glass cover is SOOO small that once
something gets in - it is impossible to 'blow' out, and the glass
will then need to be removed and cleaned (by Sigma).
Ahh, this is interesting information to know. So the 3rd area makes
it "in" the sensor, but not really in the sensor. It is "in" the
sensor as its an area that we cannot clean with common method, but
it is not in the sensor as it still can be removed by Sigma.
Now - if they would clean the camera good BEFORE installing the
sensor this problem would be solved - again, in my opinion...
Or have this process done under a much cleaner environment, ie: at
the chip mfg'g plant.
I think the dust cover is a great idea - and will work well... But
the Quality Control prior to assembling the dust cover MUST be
heightened.
It seems so.
I hope this is helpful - and I am sure it will all be worked out
ASAP! Sigma knows this is a hot issue.
I read they have already offered to clean your camera. That is a
good thing to know.

Out of this, it seems a high f-stop shot should be one of the first
things we test for just to get an idea if the sensor packaging is
clean.

--
jc
Sony F707
http://www.reefkeepers.org/gallery/f707
http://www.reeftec.com/gallery
Hi jc,

I'm sure Sigma will come up with the resolution to this dust thing, probably it would be a good idea on there part to publish a paper on how to correctly clean the camera also.

--
Regards,
Gavin
Canon Pro90IS, B-300 Canon Pro 70
 
While some of the spots really look like dust... many of the spots have the same circular shape and a similar size. They look like water spots. I guess this has been mentioned before... but could these be the results of a manufacturing issue? Bubbles or something else in the silicon?
 
Below I am proposing a couple of simple experiments for those with
a SD9 to try. I think they would help get things onto a more
objective basis.

There are a couple of problems that most everybody agrees on seeing
in the SD9 images, one is “Dust” and the other is Vanishing
saturated Reds/Oranges/Magentas.

Karl
The problem with the oversatuated reds/oranges/magentas and the blown out highlights is easily corrected by using the Photo Pro software that comes with the camera. I think early images used "auto" settings on the raw conversion software.

Like the kodak software there appears to be a couple of stops "in the bank".
--
Roger
 
KARL, YOU STARTED THIS: HOW ABOUT ENDING IT?
Below I am proposing a couple of simple experiments for those with
a SD9 to try. I think they would help get things onto a more
objective basis.

There are a couple of problems that most everybody agrees on seeing
in the SD9 images, one is “Dust” and the other is Vanishing
saturated Reds/Oranges/Magentas.

EXPERIMENT 1: WHERE IS THE DUST?

There is a simple experiment to run to determine approximately
where the dust is located. Basically all you have to do is go into
Aperture Preferred mode and set the Exposure for +1 (since you will
be shooting at the sky). Then point toward the sky and shoot a
picture at F2.8, F5.6, F11, and F22. Then (optional), if the
camera will support it, take off the lens and at a high shutter
speed (this may take some trial and error to get the shutter speed
high enough to no overexpose).

The “shadow” caste by dust is a function of the distance from the
sensor and the F-number. The more you stop down (higher F-number)
the sharper the dust will become. If the dust is more than a
centimeter from the Sensor it will not cast a discernable shadow at
F2.8, but if it is about a centimeter away it will cast one at say
F11. Basically you can figure out how far the dust is away from
the sensor by what F-number it appears at. The smaller the
F-number for it to appear, the closer the dust is to the sensor.

BTW, dust in the lens or even on the "dust protector" is way to far
away from the sensor to image sharply. The fact that dust is
showing up on F8 shots, suggests that it is near or in the sensor.

IF without a lens at all the camera Dust is “sharp,” then this
suggests that the dust in either on the surface of the sensor
(permanently encapsulated with the device) OR the pixel is dead.
Even at F2.8, if the dust is sharp it suggests a dead or
permanently blocked pixel.

The “take a picture of the sky at F16” is something that everyone
that is checking their camera for Dust does, because it is known
that stopping down the lens makes the dust stand out. This is
something any DSLR owner (of any brand) should do regularly to
check for the accumulation of dust. It would also be interesting
to see if the "Dust" gets worse or stays the same over time.

EXPERIMENT 2: Do Saturated Colors Blow Out Worse than other Cameras?

I think most everyone agrees that the SD9 has some strange problems
with light sources, but there is also evidence (say the “horse
track picture” with the blown out traffic cone) that it has
problems with brightly lit saturated colors. What may some times
thought to be “specular reflections” (white due to light refection)
may in fact be color blow outs. This experiment is designed to
see how sensitive the SD9 is to blowing out colors. A simple way
to get a variety of intensities is to take a Curve or Spherical
object (either bright red or bright orange, we know that traffic
cones “work”) and illuminated it primarily from one side. This
will cause a gradient type of shading. Take a close up picture
of the object over a range of exposures (exposure bracketing. If
possible, do the same with another brand of camera so that people
can compare the results.

It would be nice to run the experiment with different colors.
Red/Orange/Magenta seems to be a particular problem for the SD9, it
would be interesting to see what other colors do.

I tried to “construct” tests that would be quick and easy to run
and has a good chance of giving some objective results. The
“Where is the Dust?” test is particularly easy to run and I am
surprised nobody has done it yet.

Karl
--
TJ
 
Below I am proposing a couple of simple experiments for those with
a SD9 to try. I think they would help get things onto a more
objective basis.

There are a couple of problems that most everybody agrees on seeing
in the SD9 images, one is “Dust” and the other is Vanishing
saturated Reds/Oranges/Magentas.

EXPERIMENT 1: WHERE IS THE DUST?

There is a simple experiment to run to determine approximately
where the dust is located. Basically all you have to do is go into
Aperture Preferred mode and set the Exposure for +1 (since you will
be shooting at the sky). Then point toward the sky and shoot a
picture at F2.8, F5.6, F11, and F22. Then (optional), if the
camera will support it, take off the lens and at a high shutter
speed (this may take some trial and error to get the shutter speed
high enough to no overexpose).

The “shadow” caste by dust is a function of the distance from the
sensor and the F-number. The more you stop down (higher F-number)
the sharper the dust will become. If the dust is more than a
centimeter from the Sensor it will not cast a discernable shadow at
F2.8, but if it is about a centimeter away it will cast one at say
F11. Basically you can figure out how far the dust is away from
the sensor by what F-number it appears at. The smaller the
F-number for it to appear, the closer the dust is to the sensor.

BTW, dust in the lens or even on the "dust protector" is way to far
away from the sensor to image sharply. The fact that dust is
showing up on F8 shots, suggests that it is near or in the sensor.

IF without a lens at all the camera Dust is “sharp,” then this
suggests that the dust in either on the surface of the sensor
(permanently encapsulated with the device) OR the pixel is dead.
Even at F2.8, if the dust is sharp it suggests a dead or
permanently blocked pixel.

The “take a picture of the sky at F16” is something that everyone
that is checking their camera for Dust does, because it is known
that stopping down the lens makes the dust stand out. This is
something any DSLR owner (of any brand) should do regularly to
check for the accumulation of dust. It would also be interesting
to see if the "Dust" gets worse or stays the same over time.

EXPERIMENT 2: Do Saturated Colors Blow Out Worse than other Cameras?

I think most everyone agrees that the SD9 has some strange problems
with light sources, but there is also evidence (say the “horse
track picture” with the blown out traffic cone) that it has
problems with brightly lit saturated colors. What may some times
thought to be “specular reflections” (white due to light refection)
may in fact be color blow outs. This experiment is designed to
see how sensitive the SD9 is to blowing out colors. A simple way
to get a variety of intensities is to take a Curve or Spherical
object (either bright red or bright orange, we know that traffic
cones “work”) and illuminated it primarily from one side. This
will cause a gradient type of shading. Take a close up picture
of the object over a range of exposures (exposure bracketing. If
possible, do the same with another brand of camera so that people
can compare the results.

It would be nice to run the experiment with different colors.
Red/Orange/Magenta seems to be a particular problem for the SD9, it
would be interesting to see what other colors do.

I tried to “construct” tests that would be quick and easy to run
and has a good chance of giving some objective results. The
“Where is the Dust?” test is particularly easy to run and I am
surprised nobody has done it yet.

Karl
--
TJ
 

Keyboard shortcuts

Back
Top