Costco

Amazing to me that anyone would care. That's like your client finding out what camera you used. What if you have a 5Dmk2 and they have a 1DSmk3? Or a Hasselblad digital camera? Not that far fetched in my prosperous market. One of the CEO's I shot in December took some time during our session at his offices to show me his new Leica M9. Am I supposed to cower in fear and shame that I only used a Canon 7D for his PR portrait? So silly. It's not the gear or the lab. It's what you put on the paper at the lab that counts. Dear God, what if they find out that we sometimes use a $49 Holga because we like the effect?

What if book buyers found out that some of the photos I included in my book on Photographic Lighting Equipment were done with a Canon G10?

Checked in with the old pro lab today. Guess what? They're using the same Fuji Super Crystal Archive printing paper as my local Costco........

--
Austin based portrait photographer and author of the book series, Minimalist
Lighting, and the book Commercial Photographers Handbook. http://www.kirktuck.com

We are all guilty of determining value based on brand perceptions. We are photographers, so we understand/know the difference, but I bet you make decisions all the time based on brand perception when it comes to consumer goods and products (unless you are impervious to marketing).

...and what's Costco's brand image? What does Costco stand for? If you ask 100 people, I bet the words that come to mind are things like:

Discount
Bulk
Value
Crowded
Busy
Free samples!

So, regardless of the actual quality, when you tell a customer Costco is your lab, Costco's brand personality is now associated with your printed images.

...and what words come to mind when you think about a specialized custom lab available only to pros? Maybe thinks like:

Premium
Exclusive
Specialized

That's what I want associated with my work. In fact, I make it a point to tell customers of my fine art images that I have them printed at A&I, MpixPro, or BayPhoto - labs only "pros" have access to, and labs that specialize in producing beautiful images...and not selling batteries, rotisserie chicken, and wine.

Kirk Tuck said:

Amazing to me that anyone would care. That's like your client finding out what camera you used. What if you have a 5Dmk2 and they have a 1DSmk3? Or a Hasselblad digital camera? Not that far fetched in my prosperous market. One of the CEO's I shot in December took some time during our session at his offices to show me his new Leica M9. Am I supposed to cower in fear and shame that I only used a Canon 7D for his PR portrait? So silly. It's not the gear or the lab. It's what you put on the paper at the lab that counts. Dear God, what if they find out that we sometimes use a $49 Holga because we like the effect?

What if book buyers found out that some of the photos I included in my book on Photographic Lighting Equipment were done with a Canon G10?

Checked in with the old pro lab today. Guess what? They're using the same Fuji Super Crystal Archive printing paper as my local Costco........

--
Austin based portrait photographer and author of the book series, Minimalist
Lighting, and the book Commercial Photographers Handbook. http://www.kirktuck.com

Click to expand...

--
http://www.jeffseltzerphotography.com

John Deerfield wrote:

I have no idea how my answering the questions infers that someone isn't a pro? And I am happy for you that you recognize Kirk Tuck and consider him the only pro you recognize in the thread.

I guess I misunderstood what you meant by this statement:

"I was merely answering why a PRO wouldn't use them." (Capitalization yours.)

Ditto Jeff!

I have only sampled two Sam's club labs so far with the Frontier 400 series dry lab printers....but so far they are almost indistinguishable between labs....and between days ....their new machines with calibration with every order printed....allows for very tight reproduction matching of prints done at different locations, and at different times at the same labs. I plan more tests to determine just how closely the labs match one another throughout the chain.

One "pro" lab I used long ago ....sent me back prints that were 1/3 one image and 2/3 the next one....I took them back to the lab...and they assured me that some mistake have taken place....agreed to reprint and send them to me.....three days later I got the same 1/3--2/3s prints back in the mail for the second time....they advertised in either Rangefinder or Petersons...been awhile...hope they are not still there.... Another pro lab I used went bankrupt...luckily not with my film at their place of business....not sure how many photographers had their film there for the full year until the original owner took back the lab....at least with digital we don't have that worry today....

The other arguments you made are good ones....so what lab are you using...because the "pro" labs I have tried have been more trouble and longer turn around that using one of my local Sam's clubs.

I would pay a bit more for copyright and file number backprinting IF I thought the convenience was still there...and yes it would save me that 15 mile drive...and that would be worth a bit....
--
Richard Katris aka Chanan

I have clients who shoot with Hassy, D3, D700, ...and have since the cameras were released....Was shooting with 20D when first client sat opposite me with a D3 in his lap....he knew what I had....was still using my services....it isn't the gear...it is the photographer....

Was at a color management seminar years ago...put on by Fuji....they had sample cameras...and lenses....and at sometime during the presentation, the presenter mentioned that you didn't have to buy Nikon optics for top quality results....murmuring all around me was "Tamron!"....with emphasis....I had been using the Tammy 28-75 for months a few months at that point, so I echoed the sentiment.

Upon going up to play with the sample cameras later....the Tammy 18-55 and 28-75 f 2.8s were the mounted optics on the demo bodies.... The bulk of the shooters present worked for major sports or school photography businesses that probably employed 10--20 shooters each...

Not saying I would want "Sam's Club" printed on the back of my proofs...but it isn't....but I really don't hide that fact from my clients if they ask either....
--
Richard Katris aka Chanan

whcc and hhcolorlab are the two I use most often
--
If I knew how to take a good picture I'd do it every time.

You do know there is more than one fuji crystal archive paper, right?

It comes in different weights and different back printing - and who knows what other differences there may be.

So is it the same? Well, unless it says 'professional paper - copyright applies do not copy' then there is at lease on thing that's different.

If cameras and lenses and the way you and I process images are not the same why suddenly do you assume the paper is the same?

Kirk Tuck said:

Checked in with the old pro lab today. Guess what? They're using the same Fuji Super Crystal Archive printing paper as my local Costco........

Click to expand...

It's your business so you decide what you want it to be - the best, close to the best, cheapest, just good enough to not get complaints - whatever works for you.

I know photogs around here that do essentially the same thing as me - some get 1/4th as much money for it. Why the difference? Choice . I choose to aim for the upper end of things and they don't.

If you're aiming for the upper end then everything you do should be in line with that goal - and a consumer lab isn't.

What I don't get and nobody has explained to me yet - why do you use costco instead of a pro lab? What makes it the best choice for you?
--
If I knew how to take a good picture I'd do it every time.

Bill -
I too am a fan of the Costo / Sam's printing capabilities.

Do you turn off the Auto Correction when printing to support a color managed workflow?

I have been experiencing an issue - when Auto=Off - there is a descrepancy to the monitor image. When Auto=On they are much closer and acceptable 95% of the time. But, I don't care for the saturation, lightening it does.

I am currently stuck with my local brand new Costco and their Fuji printer. It almost appear as if they did they calibration with Auto=On since the Auto=off is quite discrepant.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

-Guy

John -

Can you share some of the models of the dry printers you claim are providing the consistent colors and darks etc? I believe my local machine is the Fuji 370.

Thanks.
Guy

John said:

Two words: accuracy and consistency.

Click to expand...

Richard Katris said:

Lets consider accuracy. I have a color managed workflow. I edit my images based on what I see on my calibrated monitor. I now take this image to my local mini-lab (Costco, Wal-Mart, etc); their machines will automatically color correct the image. I don't know of to many mini-labs that don't. Actually, I don't know of any. It is simply an automated process built into the machine. Additionally, some technicians might make their own adjustments to an image in order to deliver "superior" customer service. So no matter how you slice it, once a machine auto-corrects an image or even a well intentioned technician, my carefully managed color workflow goes out the window.

Click to expand...

Richard Katris said:

Taking it one step further, lets say I have two technicians looking at my images prior to be printed. Technician A makes one adjustment to an image on one day, but technician B makes a different adjustment to the same image on a different day. We all see things a bit differently. Problem now is that I don't get consistency from print to print.

Click to expand...

Richard Katris said:

There are certainly more reasons than what have outlined but it all boils down to accuracy and consistency. Pros look for labs to deliver that. Consumer labs are all based on cost/price. Granted, some will do better than others but given the Costco example I daresay you could take an image to a Costco at one location and the same image to a different Costco and come away with two different prints.

Click to expand...

I make my 12" x 18" proofs that my wife carrys around in a portfolio to show customers.

LightJets and Durst Lambda printers are considered the defacto standard for photographic prints. The Noritsu printers that Costco use have the exact same process including the chemical bath to "develop" the prints that Costco printer go to great legnths to keep the baths in check for consistant results.

They use Fuji Crystal Archive paper which is the SAME reccomended paper the LightJet and Durst Lambda printers usually use. The paper and print process create archival quality prints comparable with any pro shops out there.

Costo also posts their profiles so you can soft proof on a calibrated system and get spot on results like any other pro shop.

For all my glossy print needs up to 12" x 18", Costco is who I trust.

My gallery quality prints though are handled locally, even at the 12" x 18" size. Most of my gallery quality work has to be on matte paper to keep reflection down and the paper I use is a wide gamut paper that responds to colors much better. I often print up to 40" x 60" and Costco is not the answer for that.

But if I were a wedding shooter, or an event photographer where glossies were my end product, Costco would be my secret weapon.

Roman

--

“There is only you and your camera. The limitations in your photography are in yourself, for what we see is what we are.”
~ Ernst Haas

We are officially live!!!!
http://www.commercialfineart.com/
Old Web Site
http://www.pbase.com/romansphotos/

all the pro labs near me have gone out of business, or offer substandard work anyway...I have tried them. I have to do all the adjustments myself no matter which lab I have tried....and dealing with mailorder labs....takes longer than I want it to take.

If the available local lab does proper maintenance, and has consistency in printing...and I can go print and get them back in an hour or so...I find it more convenient than waiting three or four days for the prints to arrive in the mail...and so far the prints that have arrived in the mail have required as much/many redos as the ones from the local Sam's lab....and take me longer to get them redone when needed. Lastly..Sams does it for less...
--
Richard Katris aka Chanan

guy schlacter said:

Bill -
I too am a fan of the Costo / Sam's printing capabilities.

Do you turn off the Auto Correction when printing to support a color managed workflow?

I have been experiencing an issue - when Auto=Off - there is a descrepancy to the monitor image. When Auto=On they are much closer and acceptable 95% of the time. But, I don't care for the saturation, lightening it does.

I am currently stuck with my local brand new Costco and their Fuji printer. It almost appear as if they did they calibration with Auto=On since the Auto=off is quite discrepant.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

-Guy

Click to expand...

When you say monitor image I don't know if you're referring to yours or theirs, but my prints were a bit darker than I expected so I found a site somwhere out there in cyberspace that had a good set of charts by which to calibrate my monitor with regard to black level, gamma, and the sort. It really made a difference and now what I see on my monitor is VERY close to what I get. I'm not pleased with the color rendition on my laptop monitor though as the prints are very lisghtly off the colors I see on it, and find that my older PC monitor gets it right. But that again is a calibration issue not serious enough to warrant buying the spider and all that just yet.

my local Sam's clubs have gone over to getting rid of the Fuji 370/390 Frontier wet lab printers.....

Issues I have seen with the new printers....they are higher contrast...so I have had to change my profiles to match. If not maintained....you get muddy smears on the backs of the prints...and occasionally from cutting .... balls of I think ink on the face of some prints....that have to be removed prior to shipping...can be done with pencil eraser sometimes...sometimes they smear and have to be reprinted.....probably another maintenance issue in cleaning the cutter blades. I think it scrapes off some ink which eventually falls on subsequent prints passing the cutting station on the printer.

I have seen some banding on prints done at places that historically have bad maintenance as well.. I don't use those labs....other than occasionally testing them to see if they have changed...so far they haven't. I imagine that is a result of print head cleaning....

I think the DL430 is a dye ink jet rather than a pigment one...so I am somewhat unsure of the stability of the prints long term, and their resistance to water damage....you could always wash an RA4 print to bring it back to new if something was spilled on it...I doubt that would work with the new inkjet prints..

While I might have liked to keep with chemical prints for various reasons...they are on the way out just due to the ecological and gross polluter rules that have been placed on the industry as a whole....so adjusting to the change at this time it seems that the inkjet technology has progressed enough that it is probably good to get used to it before it is the only technology available as I expect it will soon be.....
--
Richard Katris aka Chanan

Jeff Seltzer said:

We are all guilty of determining value based on brand perceptions. We are photographers, so we understand/know the difference, but I bet you make decisions all the time based on brand perception when it comes to consumer goods and products (unless you are impervious to marketing).

...and what's Costco's brand image? What does Costco stand for? If you ask 100 people, I bet the words that come to mind are things like:

Discount
Bulk
Value
Crowded
Busy
Free samples!

So, regardless of the actual quality, when you tell a customer Costco is your lab, Costco's brand personality is now associated with your printed images.

...and what words come to mind when you think about a specialized custom lab available only to pros? Maybe thinks like:

Premium
Exclusive
Specialized

That's what I want associated with my work. In fact, I make it a point to tell customers of my fine art images that I have them printed at A&I, MpixPro, or BayPhoto - labs only "pros" have access to, and labs that specialize in producing beautiful images...and not selling batteries, rotisserie chicken, and wine.
--
http://www.jeffseltzerphotography.com

Click to expand...

So at no point in that statement did I read anything that stated that Costco didn't do as good a job as the pro lab, and all I did see was that you tell your customers what pro labs you DO use because you want them to perceive that what you use is exclusive.

Why do you tell them what lab you use anyway? It's none of their business?

a laptop monitor...but in general I have yet to see any laptop that can come close to any monitor I have ever used...from the cheapest to the best... Angle of view is the first issue with most laptops....and you don't ever know what is proper...second...according to Lenovo...when they brought out a laptop for design professionals a couple years back...they quantified how bad laptops were when they bragged about the fact that their new laptop showed 70% of the Adobe RGB gamut...unlike the average on laptops of 40%...... my LaCie shows 100%...and I can really tell the difference in matching prints.....having said that the cheap "Soyo" no name brand monitor I use as a second screen...is almost identical to the LaCie...but I would still not use it for any color correction work.
--
Richard Katris aka Chanan

guy schlacter said:

Bill -
I too am a fan of the Costo / Sam's printing capabilities.

Do you turn off the Auto Correction when printing to support a color managed workflow?

I have been experiencing an issue - when Auto=Off - there is a descrepancy to the monitor image. When Auto=On they are much closer and acceptable 95% of the time. But, I don't care for the saturation, lightening it does.

-Guy

Click to expand...

I get excellent results from Sam's. My nearest Costco is 50 miles, so I haven't tried there. As for the Auto Correction, I always turn that off. At least at my Sam's that seems to oversaturate and darken prints. I get a good color match from my monitor to their prints, but I do have to compensate for brightness (because I simply like my monitor brighter than perfect calibration would dictate). So before I send an order in I slightly tick up brightness.

My only complaints are the wallets are sometimes slightly crooked and when they are swamped, staff from other departments come to do check outs and don't always handle large prints with the same care. But when they crease one, they reprint it immediately at no charge.

--
Greg
http://www.NorrellPhotography.com

DennisButler said:

guy schlacter said:

Bill -
I too am a fan of the Costo / Sam's printing capabilities.

Do you turn off the Auto Correction when printing to support a color managed workflow?

I have been experiencing an issue - when Auto=Off - there is a descrepancy to the monitor image. When Auto=On they are much closer and acceptable 95% of the time. But, I don't care for the saturation, lightening it does.

I am currently stuck with my local brand new Costco and their Fuji printer. It almost appear as if they did they calibration with Auto=On since the Auto=off is quite discrepant.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

-Guy

Click to expand...

When you say monitor image I don't know if you're referring to yours or theirs, but my prints were a bit darker than I expected so I found a site somwhere out there in cyberspace that had a good set of charts by which to calibrate my monitor with regard to black level, gamma, and the sort. It really made a difference and now what I see on my monitor is VERY close to what I get. I'm not pleased with the color rendition on my laptop monitor though as the prints are very lisghtly off the colors I see on it, and find that my older PC monitor gets it right. But that again is a calibration issue not serious enough to warrant buying the spider and all that just yet.

Click to expand...

Dennis-

What you describe is exactly what I was use too with Seams With this new Costco I truly believe they only calibrated for auto = on, both my own and their monitorso show the discrepancy to the print in similar fashion. The Fuji tech was getting a call this wk and I hope to here back. Ill let you know.
Guy

use the printer profile(s) from Dry Creek Photo that Costco recommends? If not than it is no wonder you are seeing issues with your prints. Is your monitor profiled?

If the answer is yes to both, than I believe you do indeed have an issue with your Costco printer people.

I have been using them for quite some time and a more cooperative bunch of lab people would be hard to find.

Hope you get things squared away, and oh, don't use auto correction... Fix your files first.
Regards, Jim

guy schlacter said:

Bill -
I too am a fan of the Costo / Sam's printing capabilities.

Do you turn off the Auto Correction when printing to support a color managed workflow?

I have been experiencing an issue - when Auto=Off - there is a descrepancy to the monitor image. When Auto=On they are much closer and acceptable 95% of the time. But, I don't care for the saturation, lightening it does.

I am currently stuck with my local brand new Costco and their Fuji printer. It almost appear as if they did they calibration with Auto=On since the Auto=off is quite discrepant.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

-Guy

Click to expand...

--



Odds N' Ends album here:
http://www.pbase.com/jimh/inbox&page=all
Z album here: http://www.pbase.com/jimh/marilyn_the_car&page=all