Low light level and focussing for K-5

As any lens might be VERY off with respect to IR focus, it would be VERY stupid of Pentax not to include an IR filter in the AF optics. So ... I really, really, really hope Pentax do not make so simple mistakes.

--
Roland

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Ray, Roland, et al, I have a hypothesis but no K-5 or K-7 so will rely on you to check this out:

Rather than the expense of a CA corrected AF light chain, which likely wouldn't be perfect anyway, it seems that these two cameras use the "+" part of Safox to measure the White Balance (WB) and do a Auto Focus (AF) correction based on that. This works well in bright light where an an accurate measurement of WB can be made, even for bright tungsten; however, it was forgotten that in dim light there isn't really anything of colour to measure: That's why our eye's response in dim light depends on black and white receptors (which are also more sensitive).

In the above case, Pentax could do one of two things, try to continue to use the WB adjustments even though there is a large margin of error but try to design that error to drive the front focus to be no worse than if "+" was not there, or if the errors are larger than what is trying to be corrected for, just give up and don't correct. In either case, even for daylight type of lighting, due to having to allow for the balances between the RGB sensors, it is likely that the green channel is the strongest followed by the red and blue. As the light level drops, especially for the "warrmer" indoor lighting, it is likely the blue level that will get fuzziest to the point of not being able to be discerned followed very slightly later by the red channel. At that point, there is no way of determining WB accurately and it likely occurs about a stop or two above the minimum metering/AF capability for the maximum aperture of the lens used since AF is wide open . For a f/1.4 lens, that would be about LV 0 to 2, for a f/2.8 lens about 2 to 4, and for a f/4 lens about 3 to 5. Just for reference, a f/2.8 lens at ISO 3200 is 1/16 second expsoure for LV = 2.

If I'm right, there isn't much that Pentax can do about accurate AF in low light, as anything they do would be a compromise. They could assume that low light might be tungsten and do a partial correction, but then it might be just low light fluorescent or halogen and the guess would be wrong. The most they could do in this case is use the WB preset as a hint as to how much correction to apply since it can't be measured. However, if the conjecture that low light daylight illumination is also wrong, then they could use a model to predict how AF distance varies with light level and apply that instead of or on top of the normal "+" WB correction.

BTW, my K200D also front focuses for very dim light as described above (f/4 lens at f/4 ISO 1600 1/8 second) which as at about 4000 degrees Kelvin and is fine in brighter light. This also makes sense as the phase detector picks up more and more reddish rather than bluish tones at dimmer light levels, even though it is monotone sensitive.

As a thought, has someone done a similar test for a "Gold AF Standard" D700 or D300(s)?

Regards, GordonBGood
It is light enough here to put the ND filters on the K20D and I do not see the same focus shift when the light through the lens is reduced as I do with the K5.

Since the K20D does not have the magic + in the SAFOX AF system, it also does not have the color sensor.

Unless the K20D AF system is far better corrected ithan the K5 for IR focus shift or CA, (doubtful), I think that something else is amiss.

Based upon my tests so far, I see no reason why an increasing correction could not be applied as the meter reads less light It might not be perfect in every case with every lens, but it would be a lot closer than what we have now.

Personally, I would be happy to simply test my lenses and add another offset for low light if the functionality were to be available to me. The bias is always FF, so the test and adjustment would be easy.

I am testing my lenses in this manner and will record the results for use in making manual adjustments for low light conditions, but in some cases I might not have enough adjustment left to correct for the worst case lighting. If so, that means I have to stop down a bit as well or use a different lens.

Ray
 
It is light enough here to put the ND filters on the K20D and I do not see the same focus shift when the light through the lens is reduced as I do with the K5.
Thats exactly as predicted. The K20D does not compensate - so it should really not be a problem. The K-5 on the other hand ...
Unless the K20D AF system is far better corrected ithan the K5 for IR focus shift or CA, (doubtful), I think that something else is amiss.
I guess the Pentax algorithms are wrong ... they trust the color info too much and over compensate or even compensate on fantasy figures.
Based upon my tests so far, I see no reason why an increasing correction could not be applied as the meter reads less light It might not be perfect in every case with every lens, but it would be a lot closer than what we have now.
Not if the color reading is totally wrong at low light.
Personally, I would be happy to simply test my lenses and add another offset for low light if the functionality were to be available to me. The bias is always FF, so the test and adjustment would be easy.
That would not work. At least not for those lenses having huge problems. The added CA correction is so large that trying to compensate with calibration is futile.
I am testing my lenses in this manner and will record the results for use in making manual adjustments for low light conditions, but in some cases I might not have enough adjustment left to correct for the worst case lighting. If so, that means I have to stop down a bit as well or use a different lens.
Hmmmm ... first focus totally wrong - and then stop down to make usable images. Does not sound sound.

Use LV for your K-5 instead. Or get yourself a focussing screen.

--
Roland

support http://www.openraw.org/
(Sleeping - so the need to support it is even higher)

X3F tools : http://www.proxel.se/x3f.html
 
Ray, Roland, et al, I have a hypothesis but no K-5 or K-7 so will rely on you to check this out:

Rather than the expense of a CA corrected AF light chain, which likely wouldn't be perfect anyway, it seems that these two cameras use the "+" part of Safox to measure the White Balance (WB) and do a Auto Focus (AF) correction based on that. This works well in bright light where an an accurate measurement of WB can be made, even for bright tungsten; however, it was forgotten that in dim light there isn't really anything of colour to measure: That's why our eye's response in dim light depends on black and white receptors (which are also more sensitive).

In the above case, Pentax could do one of two things, try to continue to use the WB adjustments even though there is a large margin of error but try to design that error to drive the front focus to be no worse than if "+" was not there, or if the errors are larger than what is trying to be corrected for, just give up and don't correct. In either case, even for daylight type of lighting, due to having to allow for the balances between the RGB sensors, it is likely that the green channel is the strongest followed by the red and blue. As the light level drops, especially for the "warrmer" indoor lighting, it is likely the blue level that will get fuzziest to the point of not being able to be discerned followed very slightly later by the red channel. At that point, there is no way of determining WB accurately and it likely occurs about a stop or two above the minimum metering/AF capability for the maximum aperture of the lens used since AF is wide open . For a f/1.4 lens, that would be about LV 0 to 2, for a f/2.8 lens about 2 to 4, and for a f/4 lens about 3 to 5. Just for reference, a f/2.8 lens at ISO 3200 is 1/16 second expsoure for LV = 2.

If I'm right, there isn't much that Pentax can do about accurate AF in low light, as anything they do would be a compromise. They could assume that low light might be tungsten and do a partial correction, but then it might be just low light fluorescent or halogen and the guess would be wrong. The most they could do in this case is use the WB preset as a hint as to how much correction to apply since it can't be measured. However, if the conjecture that low light daylight illumination is also wrong, then they could use a model to predict how AF distance varies with light level and apply that instead of or on top of the normal "+" WB correction.

BTW, my K200D also front focuses for very dim light as described above (f/4 lens at f/4 ISO 1600 1/8 second) which as at about 4000 degrees Kelvin and is fine in brighter light. This also makes sense as the phase detector picks up more and more reddish rather than bluish tones at dimmer light levels, even though it is monotone sensitive.

As a thought, has someone done a similar test for a "Gold AF Standard" D700 or D300(s)?

Regards, GordonBGood
Gordon -

How do you explain that my 645, which has the same hardware and a lower speed lens (f2.8) has no trouble in same light situations sa K-5 consistently front focuses? How does this jive with above theory?
 
It is light enough here to put the ND filters on the K20D and I do not see the same focus shift when the light through the lens is reduced as I do with the K5.
Thats exactly as predicted. The K20D does not compensate - so it should really not be a problem. The K-5 on the other hand ...
The K10D also did not have this sensor and it shifted in low light/tungsten as well. Note that other newer Pentax bodies without the SAFOX+ also are shifting and also do not have the color sensor.
Unless the K20D AF system is far better corrected ithan the K5 for IR focus shift or CA, (doubtful), I think that something else is amiss.
I guess the Pentax algorithms are wrong ... they trust the color info too much and over compensate or even compensate on fantasy figures.
Based upon my tests so far, I see no reason why an increasing correction could not be applied as the meter reads less light It might not be perfect in every case with every lens, but it would be a lot closer than what we have now.
Not if the color reading is totally wrong at low light.
The shift is always FF and any correction back as the light is decreased would certainly help. Think of a table of offsets that get bigger as the light gets lower, but all in the same direction, away from FF.
Personally, I would be happy to simply test my lenses and add another offset for low light if the functionality were to be available to me. The bias is always FF, so the test and adjustment would be easy.
That would not work. At least not for those lenses having huge problems. The added CA correction is so large that trying to compensate with calibration is futile.
??? Not really. The effect is pretty consistent and always FF. The controller can tell the motor to stop anywhere it wants to. The current micro-AF adjust is simply an offset that gets added or subtracted to the zero position that the camera thinks is a good in-focus condition. There is no reason that another offset could not be employed and no reason it could not be such that it starts at a given light level and gets bigger as the light is reduced.

Frankly, this seems rather trivial to me. The camera knows the meter reading, so even if this were to be a universal setting, it isn't rocket science to make a table of offsets that are included at given light levels. The best way would still be to be able to set the offset per lens based upon actual AF tests at given light levels.
I am testing my lenses in this manner and will record the results for use in making manual adjustments for low light conditions, but in some cases I might not have enough adjustment left to correct for the worst case lighting. If so, that means I have to stop down a bit as well or use a different lens.
Hmmmm ... first focus totally wrong - and then stop down to make usable images. Does not sound sound.
Well, in low light, I can go back to the K20D, set manual adjustments on the K5 every time I change lighting situations, or buy a Nikon.

In the short run, I will await some sort of fix from Pentax, but not forever. I bought the K5 as my first step in upgrading my gear so I can do more paid work in 2011. Until the K5, I was seriously considering a brace of D700's, but the K5 fixed what I cared about and has great IQ, so I bought it instead. The plan was to buy a second body this spring.
Use LV for your K-5 instead. Or get yourself a focussing screen.
LV sucks for almost anything but macro and video, IMO. Just how do I hand-hold a Sigma 70-210 f2.8 with hood and look at the rear lcd at the same time to make sure my composition is what I want and that the focus point is where I want it?

I have never understood the need for LV on a DSLR except for certain situations.

Ray
 
Some claims that it is the color of the light thats important, e.g. it should be worse for tungsten. Might be so. But ... I think its much more likely that its the light level that is the problem. Maybe the AF sensor is blue sensitive. Then tungsten gives a very low light level.

Roland
My K-r looks totally insensitive to light level: it'sanyway FF on tungsten, BF on LED lighting (7-8000 °K). Same error with 1/8 and 1/800, BF a bit less than FF. See these examples I put in another post:







 
Some claims that it is the color of the light thats important, e.g. it should be worse for tungsten. Might be so. But ... I think its much more likely that its the light level that is the problem. Maybe the AF sensor is blue sensitive. Then tungsten gives a very low light level.

Roland
My K-r looks totally insensitive to light level: it'sanyway FF on tungsten, BF on LED lighting (7-8000 °K). Same error with 1/8 and 1/800, BF a bit less than FF.
The exposures are certainly different and the ones with focus error all look to be dimmer to my eye.

The problem is that it could very well be that there is more than one cause, but if we cannot absolutely eliminate all variables but one when testing, we cannot be sure.

This is why I used a set of ND filters in the exact same lighting. While it could be that there is a bit of a color shift with the NDs on, it isn't much. The ND filters isolated the change to mainly the light level entering the lens, and the focus shift was present. Put the filters over the lens and the focus shifted. Take them off and it shifted back.

I also tested with an 80A filter on the camera and it did not improve the problem. The 80A corrects tungsten light to daylight and is blue'ish in color, so even though I was using a tungsten light source at the time, the filter balanced it up by blocking some of the longer wavelengths. In fact, the color balance was almost perfect as a result and the WB was manually set to daylight.

I wish I had the proper equipment to isolate the light level from the color temp so we could plot focus shift as a function of either or both, but I do not have anything but the ND filters to work with.

Ray
 
I just wish this is a software issue that can be corrected in a firmware update SOON. First the stains and now this, just won't buy one until these teething problems are history.
 
I just wish this is a software issue that can be corrected in a firmware update SOON. First the stains and now this, just won't buy one until these teething problems are history.
Probably not SOON, but you will get a great price if you can wait another six months. :)

A dumb question, I am sure, but is it possible to bring back the old AF as implemneted on the K-7? Not perfect but more usable.
 
??? Not really. The effect is pretty consistent and always FF. The controller can tell the motor to stop anywhere it wants to. The current micro-AF adjust is simply an offset that gets added or subtracted to the zero position that the camera thinks is a good in-focus condition. There is no reason that another offset could not be employed and no reason it could not be such that it starts at a given light level and gets bigger as the light is reduced.
The offset might be too large.

And - how about zooms? My Tamron zoom varies wildly when zooming on my K-7. Is that not the case for K-5?
Well, in low light, I can go back to the K20D, set manual adjustments on the K5 every time I change lighting situations, or buy a Nikon.
If it was my pro work - I would choose K20D or Nikon :)
I have never understood the need for LV on a DSLR except for certain situations.
I am no pro - I am normally in no hurry. I appreciate the theoretical advantage that I know that I am focussing on the actual sensor. But - it cannot be as slow as K-7. Thats useless. K-5 LV is said to be non useless. What do you think?

--
Roland

support http://www.openraw.org/
(Sleeping - so the need to support it is even higher)

X3F tools : http://www.proxel.se/x3f.html
 
K5 7 has light corrected AF so the comparisons with *istD-s and K20s are not helping too much here. The system takes account light color temperature now. But this is not 100% foolproof because light color temp is a tricky thing and all depends on spectra the light source is emitting or multiple lights. The same issue attacks all cameras and makers, what I have seen before is 40D and it is was weak compared to K5 in low light.

1. Test your lens focus and microadjust it in controlled light environment with manual WB.

2. Do testing with modern DA lenses, use steady light source like flash.
 
And - how about zooms? My Tamron zoom varies wildly when zooming on my K-7. Is that not the case for K-5?
I do have one Tamron zoom, the 28-75 f2.8, which is a very good lens. I have not tested it much on the K5 as it is an oddball range for a crop camera. This and the Sigma 70-210 F2.8 are more for use on the film bodies I have left. The film bodies do not get much use these days...

So, your Tamron is somewhat outside of the issue here as it is not a Pentax lens and has been revese-engineered to work with a Pentax body. The K5/K7 algorithms were most certainly developed and tested with Pentax lenses in mind, and probably with a bias towards the newer Pentax glass at that. All bets are off on 3rd party lenses.

However, in general, you cannot correct the optics of a zoom lens for every focal length setting, nor can you correct the AF for every setting. This is a fact of life with any zoom.

I can fiddle with my one and only Tamron to see if it behaves similarly. That might be interesting.

My DA* 16-50 seems ok once adjusted (in good light), as does my DA* 50-135. Of course, they both FF on the K5 as the light dims.

Ray
 
A dumb question, I am sure, but is it possible to bring back the old AF as implemneted on the K-7? Not perfect but more usable.
Then you have not used my K-7 :)

Same problem ... absolutely not better.

--
Roland

support http://www.openraw.org/
(Sleeping - so the need to support it is even higher)

X3F tools : http://www.proxel.se/x3f.html
You mean the K-7 has always had the same problems? I have not heard about this lowlight AF problem for the K-7, which I have skipped for the K-5. I asked the question because the big issue in K-7 is the high ISO and that is fixed, but unfortunately there are other new enhancements. :) I would rather have slower AF that is accurate then fast AF that is off.
 
And - how about zooms? My Tamron zoom varies wildly when zooming on my K-7. Is that not the case for K-5?
My 28-75 Tamron is spot on at 28mm, 50mm and 75mm in the same lighting conditions on the K5 after an AF adjust.

I can check low light focus shift later when it is dark.

Ray
 
Well, in low light, I can go back to the K20D, set manual adjustments on the K5 every time I change lighting situations, or buy a Nikon.
If it was my pro work - I would choose K20D or Nikon :)
Have you seen the huge number of posts on the Nikon forums complaining about D7000 BF/FF errors?

I see the K-5 vs. D7000 competition as a race in firmware updates and QC, more so than which one is fundamentally the best camera.
 
Hmmmm ... first focus totally wrong - and then stop down to make usable images. Does not sound sound.
Well, in low light, I can go back to the K20D, set manual adjustments on the K5 every time I change lighting situations, or buy a Nikon.
.

Ouch. Better make it a D90, D300 or D700, though.

.
 
The exposures are certainly different and the ones with focus error all look to be dimmer to my eye.

The problem is that it could very well be that there is more than one cause, but if we cannot absolutely eliminate all variables but one when testing, we cannot be sure.
Yes, I agree my test was not 100% accurate, I used a (very well) focused flashlight and a standard lamp with 360° output. I moved the lights from 2,5 m (almost exactly same position) to 0,25-0,3 m handheld (sure not exactly same position) to change exposure.

Still I think it's enough to say that my Kr is not way sensitive to light level.

Look at the scale:

Tungsten:
1/6 20 mm FF
1/800 20 mm FF

LED:
1/8 15 mm BF
1/640 15 mm BF

I had no variations at all - I am puzzled by the millijmetric precision, I think luck had some part in it - with 6-7 EV difference. Maybe K5 has a different behaviour.

Notes:
  • I used F 135, my "average" lens in AF behaviour; my 50 FA has FF with any camera
  • focus scale on lens reported 1,7 m;
  • the scale was almost horizontal, 20° from lens axis, so the reading is close to effective error in focus (6% diff).
 
Hmmmm ... first focus totally wrong - and then stop down to make usable images. Does not sound sound.
Well, in low light, I can go back to the K20D, set manual adjustments on the K5 every time I change lighting situations, or buy a Nikon.
.

Ouch. Better make it a D90, D300 or D700, though.

.
D700 it would be, but only after Nikon issues a D800 so I can buy two D700s and two zooms plus a flash or two without selling a kidney...

If Pentax can correct the K5 flash and dim light AF issues, I would happily stay a Pentax shooter for year 33 and beyond. The AF speed and tracking improvements are good enough for me, and the IQ is great as is the build and WR.

Ray
 
Hi Gordon, I was hoping you would chime in sooner or later and I too was thinking about how the camera judges WB in very low light? I am also wondering how it judges WB if the scene contains large areas of colors like red or blue? I know that Pentax is not the only one to apply this color sensing solutiuon (the Canon 7D does as well) but I am a bit less than clear how the sensor would discriminate between actual lighting color temp and things that are say, just yellow?
I dont think it matters. If its a gray thing lit by red light or a red thing - same problem really.

Whats problematic would be if there is a mixture of black, red and gray. The black/gray edges would then have another phase than the black/red.
Roland and Ray, as to White Balance Safox "+" (WB) sensing and discriminating WB from just a strong colour, I assume that it is done the same as for Auto WB for images: all points that are a certain range away from being white as in a range of white representations from colour temperatures of 2000 degrees Kelvin up to the upper range. The points that are left after this screening are then averaged to find the average colour temperature.

Regards, GordonBGood
 

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