SD9 sample images on IR

  • Thread starter Thread starter Rich
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Am just glad I enjoy taking pictures that look nice and seeing a
creation of where the camera sees what the mind wants it to see..
sorry but all these anal views of flaws in any of the dslrs is
wearing a little thin. Can't wait until there are enough people
shooting with the SD9 to see what they can create with their new
camera and get away from pixel by pixel comparisons. They all have
flaws or maybe I should say "characteristics", and not every dslr
is suited for every person. Not sure why there are defensive
remarks like the " bayer interpolation" one here. I don't think
anyone has said the D60 is a bad camera in any way shape or form.
Just the Foveon is trying a new approach to things. Flaws or not,
I'll be curiuous to see how well the "auto" settings works on the
Sigma software to create out of camera jpgs, leaving the untouched
RAW files for post processing if desired. Could be a real time
savings ( versus say a D60 ) for those wanting to take pictures
that look good but not wanting to loose their life to the digital
darkroom.
Carefull J! Very few posters here relate to photography as a
creative art form. I'm with your analysis. Images so far from the
SD9 are stunning. I could easily live with the noted limitations of
this new technology. In fact, I entered the waiting line at Ritz
yesterday. I don't need Phil's final review or anyone elses'
reports to want this camera now.
--
Michael OHara / WetPlanet / Honolulu
http://www.DiveSlates.com
Absolutely right Mike,

I know what my eyes are seeing and most of this technical mumbo jumbo

is something I pay little attention too. (There are some people who from a technical point of view know what they are talking about)

I believe the issues are problems maybe caused by software and in any case I don't shoot night shots anyway. I would wait until Phil gives it a good going over before resorting to conjecture. Are you listening Karl?

--
Regards,
Gavin
Canon Pro90IS, B-300 Canon Pro 70
 
I believe the issues are problems maybe caused by software and in
any case I don't shoot night shots anyway. I would wait until Phil
gives it a good going over before resorting to conjecture. Are you
listening Karl?
It seems to me that YOU are conjecturing a LOT when you say that the "problems maybe caused by software."

There have been a lot of problems found in the images. Everything from dust to Noise in certain colors, to blown out colors, to purple fringing in dark to light transitions, to a radial color problem. That on top of the ISO limitations.

Every time a real problem is found, the excuses are made to say it is the lenses, the dust cover, dust in the lens (really silly excuse), the picture wasn't taken right, and when all else fails the excuse is the software. Lets say, they are not cleaning the camera right and all the problems with the colors can be fixed in "software," that still leave one with a camera system that is not quite ready to go to market.

The X3 is a very interesting technology but the current SD9 does not seem ready for "prime time" yet.
--
Regards,
Gavin
Canon Pro90IS, B-300 Canon Pro 70
--
Karl
 
Here is a clip from the res chart in the DaveBox image:

SD9:



D60:



Arguing about which one has more detail in the alaising seems like
looking for Potatoes that have faces in them.

If you look at the Diagonal 3 section, you will note that the D60
renders it as diagonol, the SD9 registers it as broken vertical
lines.

Section 5 is filtered out on the D60 to grey. The SD9 renders it as
broad diagonal stripes tilting in the wrong direction.

IMO these are similar, in fact the d60 does a slightly better job
since it renders the 3 section correctly. After that neither convey
any real information, certainly nothing I would call detail.
Nice crop comparison!

I agree that the aliasing of the SD9 can have some "strange" visual effects at certain frequencies, and it even brings up some color moire because of CA. I also agree that the first thought is: Oh no! The SD9 is getting it all wrong! But after going into depth about how our eyes actually perceives details in most real life situations, the picture is changing. Notice that the color moire of the SD9 occurs at section 6, while it occurs at section 4 in the D60 image. In most "real life" photography this color moire will hardly be noticed, and only in certain cases. As I see it, the SD9 is able to pick up and differentiate (partly separate) subtle details up section 6, while the D60 stops at section 4. It's all about how you analyze and think about the term "detail". This ability to differentiate subtle details will not only manifest itself in patterns etc in an image - in fact it will be valid for the whole scene in a given image.

Consider this: The Foveon sensor has 3.45Mp green photodiodes. The D60 has 3Mp green photodiodes. This actually makes a difference in SD9's favour. Now speaking about the number of red and blue photocells... well, I think I've said enough! This has been discussed over and over again, and I think it all comes down to the term "photographic preference" :-)

Geir Rune
 


Notice that the color moire of
the SD9 occurs at section 6, while it occurs at section 4 in the
D60 image. In most "real life" photography this color moire will
I agree the coloured moire is worse with the D60 as would be expected.
hardly be noticed, and only in certain cases. As I see it, the SD9
is able to pick up and differentiate (partly separate) subtle
details up section 6, while the D60 stops at section 4. It's all
about how you analyze and think about the term "detail". This
ability to differentiate subtle details will not only manifest
itself in patterns etc in an image - in fact it will be valid for
the whole scene in a given image.
I think we will have to agree to disagree here, this is not subtle detail in section 6. The real subtle detail is a diagonal pattern about 5 times the the resolution and running the opposite direction and at a different angle to the alaising output. The alaising output contributes nothing. If this is subtle detail, what does it convey about the real image?

The alaising output is unlikely to ever positively contribute to image quality.

If the SD9 was really capturing more "subtle detail", the diagonal section 3, would be better represented than it is on the D60, when in reality the situation is the reverse.

Cheers,

Peter
 
The real subtle detail is a diagonal pattern
about 5 times the the resolution and running the opposite direction
and at a different angle to the alaising output. The alaising
output contributes nothing. If this is subtle detail, what does it
convey about the real image?
Peter, from this, we should be able to deduce the precise resolution (in the Nyquist sense). I.e., we know what the real spatial frequency of the lines in that section. We know what the image turned out to be (the lower frequency bands, which is nothing but aliasing error). From that, we should be able to derive the folding frequency.

I bet it is just the spatial frequency of the sensors :-).

BTW, the slightly diagonal lines should do a bit better on the D60, since the spacial frequency of the green sensors on the Bayer is highest at 45 degrees to the vertical.

To paraphase a different popular saying: "Nyquist -- it is not just a good idea, it is the law!"

By the way, a lesser known fact is that although Nyquist proposed his "theorem" in the 1920's, it was not proved until Shannon's Master's thesis in the late 1940's. And, here, in the next century, we are still discussing if we can "see" beyond what the Shannon-Nyquist sampling theory dictates :-).
  • kc
 
Peter:

I just grabbed a set outdoor shots of D100-D60-S2 images (the Bridge @ ISO200). The D100 is RAW, The D60 is JPG (according to Phil's tests, no difference in net resolution) and the S2 is RAW

I upsampled the D100 and D60 to 4256 pixels wide (and the corresponding vertical ones), for S2 equivalent size (downsizing the S2 to D60-D100 size makes things even harder for them).

ISpotted a well-lit area that was common enough for all three, in terms in contrast and detail, and here's what I got:



I found the differences to be failry substantial. It simply does not matter how much you really try to sharpen the D100-D60 combo, because doing the same on the S2 sample improves it even more.

Just watch the edges, ornaments, tiles, fine lines, contrast, etc. The S2's inherent ability to view what is practically invisible for the D60 and D100 implementation is clearly evident.

Nevertheless, an excellent performance for all cameras, though.

Kind regards, and happy shooting,

Ferenc
I also compared the the bridge photos in S2 and D100 review (to
throw the D60 into the mix).

I used the 12mp raw generated image from the s2. Conclusions:
I see a clear resolution advantage of the S2 over the D100, but I
also see a similar advantage for the D60 over the D100. If I had to
choose between the D60 and S2 I would give the edge to the S2, BUT
it is nowhere near as significant as the res chart would indicate.
So I agree that it does capture more resolution, just not to the
extent that you claim. Not 6MP vrs 8MP you claim, not for real
images anyway.

Certain algorithms can detect the monocrhome/high contrast nature
of the res chart and take advantage of that (if you know you are
shooting B&W subject you can make better correlations).

I just don't see that dramatic an advantage in images, though there
still is one.

I will argue no further on this, since we on seem to differ on the
degree of the advantage.

Peter

Certain algorithms can extract more detail from things like monochrome
Now... why don't you do the evaluation on your side, just like
you suggest, and come back and post the results, so we can all see?

Enjoy,

Ferenc
But I would res both up to say 20 MP. It is hardly fair to compare
one image at its native resolution and another that will suffer
processing softness to get there.

Peter
Then you will be able to see the actual differences...
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/fujis2pro/page12.asp

Check out the Raw vrs Jpeg part near the bottom. The S2 already
does better on res charts than the other 6MP cameras in JPG mode.
The performance in Raw is even more impressive.

Then again, it really didn't really show that large difference in
images, but it certainly does the best Res chart. :-)

Really I still think my imaginary dollars would be in the D60,
those clean 4min exposures knocked my socks off.

Peter
--
--
 
There have actually been subjective psychological tests on this. I read one paper which tests whether antialising helps or hinders image identification and classification for scientific imaging. For that application, proper optical filtering to accomplish antialiasing followed by appropriate sharpening produces superior results.

The paper references other results which say that for photographic aesthetics, people often prefer the sharper look (but incorrect information) in images that have not had optical low pass filtering applied prior to capture.

I expect this second camp could be made happy using cheap low-res cameras and a fancier version of Genuine Fractals :-)

-Z-
The real subtle detail is a diagonal pattern
about 5 times the the resolution and running the opposite direction
and at a different angle to the alaising output. The alaising
output contributes nothing. If this is subtle detail, what does it
convey about the real image?
Peter, from this, we should be able to deduce the precise
resolution (in the Nyquist sense). I.e., we know what the real
spatial frequency of the lines in that section. We know what the
image turned out to be (the lower frequency bands, which is nothing
but aliasing error). From that, we should be able to derive the
folding frequency.

I bet it is just the spatial frequency of the sensors :-).

BTW, the slightly diagonal lines should do a bit better on the D60,
since the spacial frequency of the green sensors on the Bayer is
highest at 45 degrees to the vertical.

To paraphase a different popular saying: "Nyquist -- it is not just
a good idea, it is the law!"

By the way, a lesser known fact is that although Nyquist proposed
his "theorem" in the 1920's, it was not proved until Shannon's
Master's thesis in the late 1940's. And, here, in the next
century, we are still discussing if we can "see" beyond what the
Shannon-Nyquist sampling theory dictates :-).
  • kc
 
Pretty convincing, but then I'm an S2 owner :-)

RIL
I just grabbed a set outdoor shots of D100-D60-S2 images (the
Bridge @ ISO200). The D100 is RAW, The D60 is JPG (according to
Phil's tests, no difference in net resolution) and the S2 is RAW

I upsampled the D100 and D60 to 4256 pixels wide (and the
corresponding vertical ones), for S2 equivalent size (downsizing
the S2 to D60-D100 size makes things even harder for them).

ISpotted a well-lit area that was common enough for all three, in
terms in contrast and detail, and here's what I got:



I found the differences to be failry substantial. It simply does
not
matter how much you really try to sharpen the D100-D60 combo,
because doing the same on the S2 sample improves it even more.

Just watch the edges, ornaments, tiles, fine lines, contrast, etc.
The S2's inherent ability to view what is practically invisible for
the D60 and D100 implementation is clearly evident.

Nevertheless, an excellent performance for all cameras, though.

Kind regards, and happy shooting,

Ferenc
I also compared the the bridge photos in S2 and D100 review (to
throw the D60 into the mix).

I used the 12mp raw generated image from the s2. Conclusions:
I see a clear resolution advantage of the S2 over the D100, but I
also see a similar advantage for the D60 over the D100. If I had to
choose between the D60 and S2 I would give the edge to the S2, BUT
it is nowhere near as significant as the res chart would indicate.
So I agree that it does capture more resolution, just not to the
extent that you claim. Not 6MP vrs 8MP you claim, not for real
images anyway.

Certain algorithms can detect the monocrhome/high contrast nature
of the res chart and take advantage of that (if you know you are
shooting B&W subject you can make better correlations).

I just don't see that dramatic an advantage in images, though there
still is one.

I will argue no further on this, since we on seem to differ on the
degree of the advantage.

Peter

Certain algorithms can extract more detail from things like monochrome
Now... why don't you do the evaluation on your side, just like
you suggest, and come back and post the results, so we can all see?

Enjoy,

Ferenc
But I would res both up to say 20 MP. It is hardly fair to compare
one image at its native resolution and another that will suffer
processing softness to get there.

Peter
Then you will be able to see the actual differences...
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/fujis2pro/page12.asp

Check out the Raw vrs Jpeg part near the bottom. The S2 already
does better on res charts than the other 6MP cameras in JPG mode.
The performance in Raw is even more impressive.

Then again, it really didn't really show that large difference in
images, but it certainly does the best Res chart. :-)

Really I still think my imaginary dollars would be in the D60,
those clean 4min exposures knocked my socks off.

Peter
--
--
--
 
I believe the issues are problems maybe caused by software and in
any case I don't shoot night shots anyway. I would wait until Phil
gives it a good going over before resorting to conjecture. Are you
listening Karl?
It seems to me that YOU are conjecturing a LOT when you say that
the "problems maybe caused by software."

There have been a lot of problems found in the images. Everything
from dust to Noise in certain colors, to blown out colors, to
purple fringing in dark to light transitions, to a radial color
problem. That on top of the ISO limitations.

Every time a real problem is found, the excuses are made to say it
is the lenses, the dust cover, dust in the lens (really silly
excuse), the picture wasn't taken right, and when all else fails
the excuse is the software. Lets say, they are not cleaning the
camera right and all the problems with the colors can be fixed in
"software," that still leave one with a camera system that is not
quite ready to go to market.

The X3 is a very interesting technology but the current SD9 does
not seem ready for "prime time" yet.
--
Regards,
Gavin
Canon Pro90IS, B-300 Canon Pro 70
--
Karl
Take a deep breath Karl and repeat in mantra style, "It's only a camera....it's an imperfect tool". The entire history of photography is dotted with new technology that requires innovation and experimentation to achieve a desired result. As far as I'm concerned, that's most of the fun. If we were all able to buy a perfect system that would allow us all to take the same 'perfect' image out of the box, what's the point? Are we running MRI machines here or are we composing and making photographs based on personal insight and style? The Sigma SD9 is as ready for prime time as any previous camera system; glass plate, film or digital. Stop being such a techno-nerd and go out and take some pictures. It will do your soul good.

--
Michael OHara / WetPlanet / Honolulu
http://www.DiveSlates.com
 
Every time a real problem is found, the excuses are made to say it
is the lenses, the dust cover, dust in the lens (really silly
excuse), the picture wasn't taken right, and when all else fails
the excuse is the software. Lets say, they are not cleaning the
camera right and all the problems with the colors can be fixed in
"software," that still leave one with a camera system that is not
quite ready to go to market.
Karl, and all that know more about these tings, is it not possible that many off the problem seen realy are conversion software, my (humble) teory is based on a beleve that the RAW file is good on SD9. Hence % RGB mix differ from other cmos/ccd RGB mix, Foveon/Sigma cant adapt/lisense allready wel working 12bit raw to 8 bit jpeg software.

--
Regards
KimB
 
Converting 12bit raw to 8bit is trivial. Especially since they don't even have to do any bayer recovery. If they can't do this right they will have a lot more problems.

It is possible they have a bug in the software, but it should take a programmer with a problem raw file under 10 minutes to find that very obvious issue.

Anyone who has the ear of sigma/foveon should be talking to them about those night photos and see if they can do something about it.

Peter
Every time a real problem is found, the excuses are made to say it
is the lenses, the dust cover, dust in the lens (really silly
excuse), the picture wasn't taken right, and when all else fails
the excuse is the software. Lets say, they are not cleaning the
camera right and all the problems with the colors can be fixed in
"software," that still leave one with a camera system that is not
quite ready to go to market.
Karl, and all that know more about these tings, is it not possible
that many off the problem seen realy are conversion software, my
(humble) teory is based on a beleve that the RAW file is good on
SD9. Hence % RGB mix differ from other cmos/ccd RGB mix,
Foveon/Sigma cant adapt/lisense allready wel working 12bit raw to 8
bit jpeg software.

--
Regards
KimB
 
is it not possible
that many off the problem seen realy are conversion software,
Yes, it's possible.
Foveon/Sigma cant adapt/lisense allready wel working 12bit raw to 8
bit jpeg software.
So, you are willing to believe that Foveon can successfully implement brand new, completely unique sensor hardware w/o flaws, but then they are unwilling or unable to write or license some rather straightforward software correctly?

--
Erik
 
Hmmm...I happen to know many companies like that. Hardware and software are completely different animals. Just because you are good at one does not mean you are good at the other.

Japanese companies are really bad at software. e.g. Fuji. They are finally learning but they have been horrible for the last 10 years.

I am not saying this is the case with Sigma, but it would not surprise me.
is it not possible
that many off the problem seen realy are conversion software,
Yes, it's possible.
Foveon/Sigma cant adapt/lisense allready wel working 12bit raw to 8
bit jpeg software.
So, you are willing to believe that Foveon can successfully
implement brand new, completely unique sensor hardware w/o flaws,
but then they are unwilling or unable to write or license some
rather straightforward software correctly?

--
Erik
 
Hmmm...I happen to know many companies like that. Hardware and
software are completely different animals. Just because you are
good at one does not mean you are good at the other.
While I agree, Foveon knew from the outset that the sensor and software go hand-in-hand. They've had at least as long (if not longer with simulation) to get the decoding algorithms right as they have the hardware.
I am not saying this is the case with Sigma, but it would not
surprise me.
Ahh, but which is more the more likely explanation?

--
Erik
 
So, you are willing to believe that Foveon can successfully
implement brand new, completely unique sensor hardware w/o flaws,
but then they are unwilling or unable to write or license some
rather straightforward software correctly?
Yes I am. Based on thinking like - if I produce this chip and test it in lab, off course I woud examen / test the raw image and not a lower quality converted image.

--
Regards
KimB
 
you need the SW to examine the raw image since there is no other way to see what is the image.
So, you are willing to believe that Foveon can successfully
implement brand new, completely unique sensor hardware w/o flaws,
but then they are unwilling or unable to write or license some
rather straightforward software correctly?
Yes I am. Based on thinking like - if I produce this chip and test
it in lab, off course I woud examen / test the raw image and not a
lower quality converted image.

--
Regards
KimB
--
Veniamin Kostitsin II
http://www.digitalimage.at/
 
Yes, you need a sw off course. But you dont need to downscale to 8
bit jpegs in the lab, you want get me to belive that.
But scaling from 12 (or 16) to 8 bits is trivial. It's called by the facny mathmatical term of "division". If there is a bug in the software, it likely has NOTHING to do with 12 bits vs. 8 or JPEG (good JPEG code is FREE!). It's far more likely to do with mapping sensor color response curves to perceptual color response curves (i.e., an intrinsic part of the X3 processing as described by Mr. Lyon.)

Of course, this calls to mind all of the earlier debates about how "trivial" it is to decode X3 data as opposed to all that "difficult/expensive" Bayer processing.....

--
Erik
 
don't even start ;-))) all the simplicity makes the processing unnecessary, thus making the camera faster ... aehm . yes, right. it does not write jpeg, it needs another 10 seconds to decode to jpeg ... and neither of the images produced is of free of faults which not even sony would release to the market.

then, somebody (Jeff) posts comparison images between Sigma and Fuji S2 and people say ... well .. in certain conditions sigma is actually good. with one little detail : S2 were shot at 1600 iso and sigma at 100. my old E-10 used to produce better images at 80 iso than d1x at 640. did it make it a better camera ?

i hope the owners will be happy nonetheless. after all you can paint over the blooming and CA ... and noise can be filtered out ... and it is not a 3mp camera, but a 10 mphotosite camera ... which surprisingly only produces 3mp IMAGES.

well ... enough. from what i ahve seen sigma has a lot of work to do. better yet ... somebody else has a lot of work to do with this sensor.
Yes, you need a sw off course. But you dont need to downscale to 8
bit jpegs in the lab, you want get me to belive that.
But scaling from 12 (or 16) to 8 bits is trivial. It's called by
the facny mathmatical term of "division". If there is a bug in the
software, it likely has NOTHING to do with 12 bits vs. 8 or JPEG
(good JPEG code is FREE!). It's far more likely to do with mapping
sensor color response curves to perceptual color response curves
(i.e., an intrinsic part of the X3 processing as described by Mr.
Lyon.)

Of course, this calls to mind all of the earlier debates about how
"trivial" it is to decode X3 data as opposed to all that
"difficult/expensive" Bayer processing.....

--
Erik
--
Veniamin Kostitsin II
http://www.digitalimage.at/
 
Hmmm...I happen to know many companies like that. Hardware and
software are completely different animals. Just because you are
good at one does not mean you are good at the other.
While I agree, Foveon knew from the outset that the sensor and
software go hand-in-hand. They've had at least as long (if not
longer with simulation) to get the decoding algorithms right as
they have the hardware.
I am not saying this is the case with Sigma, but it would not
surprise me.
Ahh, but which is more the more likely explanation?

--
Erik
The D1 had major issues with magenta fringing and other issues requiring a silent upgrade. The D1x has major alliasing problems that are better dealt with in the D1h. Fuji's super CCD wasn't so super after all was said and done, Canon and others have all required tweaking after initial release. Foveon represents a totally new technology. I would think it normal to expect at least a few issues to be resolved in the initial release.
--
Michael OHara / WetPlanet / Honolulu
http://www.DiveSlates.com
 

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