Low light level and focussing for K-5

I experimented with colored lego bricks with my istDS and it does focused differently on red and blue ones.
OK - yet another data point!

I assume you did it in good light?

Because in low light it might well be just the found random errors that is the cause. Which proves nothing.

If the camera focusses differently for blue and red bricks in good light - then the AF code is simply wrong BTW. The compensation should compensate and fix it.

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Lenses have quite good CA corrections.
Not in the IR range. The problem develops when the AF sensor uses IR to find focus. So we have 2 effects combined
  • It finds it incorrectly due to CA in AF sensor.
  • Even if it finds it correctly (or being corrected by color temperature sensor) the correct focus in IR may be awfully incorrect in visible range no matter how low CA has the lens in visible range.
 
If the camera focusses differently for blue and red bricks in good light - then the AF code is simply wrong BTW. The compensation should compensate and fix it.
Those code are in K-7, K-5 only, for the case of istDS the result demonstrates nothing but CA in AF sensor.
 
If the camera focusses differently for blue and red bricks in good light - then the AF code is simply wrong BTW. The compensation should compensate and fix it.
Those code are in K-7, K-5 only, for the case of istDS the result demonstrates nothing but CA in AF sensor.
AH! Missed that it was DS.

Thanx for the clarification!

Hmmmmm ... CA in the AF sensor is not really acceptable IMNSHO.

And a software CA correction that makes big errors in low light is even more objectionable again IMNSHO.

I have to make some serious thoughts regarding my future cameras. I had planned to get a K-5 January or maybe February. But ...

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I have to make some serious thoughts regarding my future cameras. I had planned to get a K-5 January or maybe February. But
You need a list of other makes that don't show this characteristic.

What EV would you say the K5 here is still focusing spot on. (16-50 sdm). ?




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You need a list of other makes that don't show this characteristic.
Yes and no.

Yes - that would be an argument to switch brand. If any one had a more reliable focussing.

No - I am in no way into brand bashing. I just want a reliable focussing method.

No - there are other means for focussing. The old reliable focussing screen is one way. Another is using Live View - if its fast enough - which I get the impression that it is on K-5.
What EV would you say the K5 here is still focusing spot on. (16-50 sdm). ?
One example is no proof of anything - which this discussion have shown very clearly. I have no problems when I use my 17-50 Tamron zoom at 50 mm but huge problems at 17 mm. My FA 35 mm F/2.0 is very strange. It just hunts at low light.

Testing my own lenses I get the impression (but is not sure) that my K-7 can manage modern Pentax lenses better. Maybe they have tested those. Or maybe they have some info that the AF can use.

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I can get focus by night with only a few light sources with my K10d+DA* 300. It is not quick but it works. Selecting more focus points makes it easier.
 
I wasn't saying it didn't happen, My point was really that the 'facts' are very mixed up at present.

I have only done some rudimentary testing and my conclusions (not proved).

Af accuracy > 2m is fine in any lighting levels.
AF accuracy under single lighting source = 0 ev is OK
AF accuracy under mixed lighting source = 1-2 ev is OK
AF accuracy when focus assist lit fine.

There are low light situations where the k5 focuses on a different target to what the focus indicators show t, this can be proved by flicking to single point and then the target is sharp flick back to 11 point and though camera shows same focus point it actually focuses using different sensor ??

Occurs for me when at an lateral angle to the test target with and obvious alternative phase target near by.

This may be why some people don't see this issue (single point shooters).

Light temperature appears to have no affect on AF accuracy.
SDM seems most accurate
DA next
the FA
F and 3rd party seem least accurate.

Tests below -1EV are pointless as this is AF sensitivity limit.
Test below 1 EV are of limited use as your Off exposure range

I need to-do further tests with slow glass to asses their behaviour.

For me AF is accurate enough in any lighting conditions I'm interested in.

Yes I think Pentax could do better and hope for a firmware update to achieve this.

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I can get focus by night with only a few light sources with my K10d+DA* 300. It is not quick but it works. Selecting more focus points makes it easier.
If I get it right ... the K10d do not have the Sensor CA correction software. So - if the lights are of reasonable color temperature, and the subject is reasonable neutral color ... there is no reason for any major problems, even if the light is dim.

The unpredictable behaviour is introduced with K-7 and Pentax try to correct for sensor CA, if I get it right.

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Thanx for taking the time to make such a thorough testing.

Your findings are compatible with what I more or less think is the consensus. There are some few findings that are not compatible. They may or may not change your conclusions.

I can give you another data point. With my third party lens (Tamron 17-50 mm F2.8) there exist no reasonable bright indoor situation where it can focus correctly at 17 and 24 mm settings. At least not if the subject is nearer than 2 meter. At 50 mm setting it works like a charm.

If I use any of my DA lenses I find no substantial problems.

It seems like Pentax have optimised their (in my opinion questionable) code for their modern lenses.

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It seems like Pentax have optimised their (in my opinion questionable) code for their modern lenses.
The CA correction code just have to know which lens you are using. Thats why I dislike that tweaking approach.
We are in total agreement there.

One of the charms with Pentax cameras is that you can use lots of old and third party lenses. But ... if the focus (for old manual lenses - focus detection) does not work. Whats the use?

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We have discussed this topic ,,,, but not really come to any conclusions.

The problem looks like this: when the light level is low, then the camera choose another focus distance, sometimes way wrong making the result unusable.

The problem is VERY dependent on choice of lens and what zoom setting you use. Thats very strange IMHO.
Hi,

There is a very long thread about foul-focussing K.r/K5 DSLRs in the German Pentax Forum (dslr-forum.de) where about 30%-50% of K-r and K5 users have that problem. Some have already received written confirmation from Pentax that Pentax is working high-speed on a fix for this (supposedly a software bug). None of my previous Pentaxs behaved like my new K-r which has an enormous FF (the *ist DS, K10D, K-m were all perfect under any light). Here is one of the posts by "jani80K" who received written confirmation from Pentax (in German):
http://www.dslr-forum.de/showthread.php?t=798146&page=23
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Hi,

There is a very long thread about foul-focussing K.r/K5 DSLRs in the German Pentax Forum (dslr-forum.de) where about 30%-50% of K-r and K5 users have that problem. Some have already received written confirmation from Pentax that Pentax is working high-speed on a fix for this (supposedly a software bug). None of my previous Pentaxs behaved like my new K-r which has an enormous FF (the *ist DS, K10D, K-m were all perfect under any light). Here is one of the posts by "jani80K" who received written confirmation from Pentax (in German):
As far as I understand - this is the situation:

Older kameras where Pentax dont correct for CA dont work well if the light and/or the object is colored red or blue - no matter the light level.

Newer cameras (from K-7 and forward) have a CA correction that is totally dangerous in low light. Anything may happen no matter what color the light or object have.

This is not a K-r/K-5 problem. Its a general Pentax DSLR problem.

Nice that Pentax Germany admits that the K-5/K-r has the problem though.

Nice that they are working on a fix.

Personally I think the best fix might be to turn off the correction in low light and accept that the camera can only focus in low light if the light and object are neutral. Thats reasonable.

An even better solution would be to CA correct the AF optically. But ... thats expensive and the camera needs to be physically altered.

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Hi,

There is a very long thread about foul-focussing K.r/K5 DSLRs in the German Pentax Forum (dslr-forum.de) where about 30%-50% of K-r and K5 users have that problem. Some have already received written confirmation from Pentax that Pentax is working high-speed on a fix for this (supposedly a software bug). None of my previous Pentaxs behaved like my new K-r which has an enormous FF (the *ist DS, K10D, K-m were all perfect under any light). Here is one of the posts by "jani80K" who received written confirmation from Pentax (in German):
As far as I understand - this is the situation:

Older kameras where Pentax dont correct for CA dont work well if the light and/or the object is colored red or blue - no matter the light level.

Newer cameras (from K-7 and forward) have a CA correction that is totally dangerous in low light. Anything may happen no matter what color the light or object have.

This is not a K-r/K-5 problem. Its a general Pentax DSLR problem.

Nice that Pentax Germany admits that the K-5/K-r has the problem though.

Nice that they are working on a fix.

Personally I think the best fix might be to turn off the correction in low light and accept that the camera can only focus in low light if the light and object are neutral. Thats reasonable.
Personally, for me this would be unacceptable (being unable to take indoor pictures, the camera can't even focus on bright candles on a christnmas tree!). ALL my previous Pentax DSLRs were spot on in any lighting situation. If what you are saying were correct, I'd jump ship and carry on with a different brand. You should also consider that some K5s and K-rs work perfectly alright. In the afore-mentioned German thread a user from Hannover reports that he tested 4 K5s in his preferred camera shop. The last camera tested was spot on and that model he bought. This leads me to the assumption that the problem has something to do with quality control. As a first step, I'll send my K-r to Pentax service in Hamburg, if this doesn't help, I will have to return the camera and decide what to do...
An even better solution would be to CA correct the AF optically. But ... thats expensive and the camera needs to be physically altered.

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Ray, Roland, et al, I have a hypothesis but no K-5 or K-7 so will rely on you to check this out:

Rather than the expense of a CA corrected AF light chain, which likely wouldn't be perfect anyway, it seems that these two cameras use the "+" part of Safox to measure the White Balance (WB) and do a Auto Focus (AF) correction based on that. This works well in bright light where an an accurate measurement of WB can be made, even for bright tungsten; however, it was forgotten that in dim light there isn't really anything of colour to measure: That's why our eye's response in dim light depends on black and white receptors (which are also more sensitive).

In the above case, Pentax could do one of two things, try to continue to use the WB adjustments even though there is a large margin of error but try to design that error to drive the front focus to be no worse than if "+" was not there, or if the errors are larger than what is trying to be corrected for, just give up and don't correct. In either case, even for daylight type of lighting, due to having to allow for the balances between the RGB sensors, it is likely that the green channel is the strongest followed by the red and blue. As the light level drops, especially for the "warrmer" indoor lighting, it is likely the blue level that will get fuzziest to the point of not being able to be discerned followed very slightly later by the red channel. At that point, there is no way of determining WB accurately and it likely occurs about a stop or two above the minimum metering/AF capability for the maximum aperture of the lens used since AF is wide open . For a f/1.4 lens, that would be about LV 0 to 2, for a f/2.8 lens about 2 to 4, and for a f/4 lens about 3 to 5. Just for reference, a f/2.8 lens at ISO 3200 is 1/16 second expsoure for LV = 2.

If I'm right, there isn't much that Pentax can do about accurate AF in low light, as anything they do would be a compromise. They could assume that low light might be tungsten and do a partial correction, but then it might be just low light fluorescent or halogen and the guess would be wrong. The most they could do in this case is use the WB preset as a hint as to how much correction to apply since it can't be measured. However, if the conjecture that low light daylight illumination is also wrong, then they could use a model to predict how AF distance varies with light level and apply that instead of or on top of the normal "+" WB correction.

BTW, my K200D also front focuses for very dim light as described above (f/4 lens at f/4 ISO 1600 1/8 second) which as at about 4000 degrees Kelvin and is fine in brighter light. This also makes sense as the phase detector picks up more and more reddish rather than bluish tones at dimmer light levels, even though it is monotone sensitive.

As a thought, has someone done a similar test for a "Gold AF Standard" D700 or D300(s)?

Regards, GordonBGood
Hi Gordon, I was hoping you would chime in sooner or later and I too was thinking about how the camera judges WB in very low light? I am also wondering how it judges WB if the scene contains large areas of colors like red or blue? I know that Pentax is not the only one to apply this color sensing solutiuon (the Canon 7D does as well) but I am a bit less than clear how the sensor would discriminate between actual lighting color temp and things that are say, just yellow?

I am not real clear on what you are asking to be tested?

Regardless, I put the K20D on the tripod and using the same AF test setup in the same room with the same lens (DA 40 pancake) but with different lighting as it is not yet daylight here.

I was shooting with a tungsten light source, but my observation is that the K20D focus is all but perfect in this very low light up to the point the AF gives up. The K5 will lock well after the meter has givien up, although it does so in a FF position.

Notes:

The last shot I captured with the K20D was .5 seconds, f2.8 ISO 1600, which seems to be just about the K20D metering cut-off point.

The K5 would already be shifting to noticeable FF in this light level as I have tested it just like this many times using the same tungsten light and target setup.

I will test the K20D in the daylight to see if I can force the K20D to focus shift using my ND filter stack.

Oddly, the K5 is not turning on the AF assist lamp in these tests no matter how low the light is (yes it is enabled on in the menu and comes on in the same low lighting when using LV focusing). It seems to not turn this light on in Phase Detect until the Af cannot find a lock even if the meter is blinking out of range.

I am sure that the AF physics problem is a far more complicated problem to solve than we know, especially when one considers tolerancing of all of the parts involved (which includes optical performance of mirrors and lenses, etc..) This is evidenced by the thousands of BF/FF focus error posts on these forums for all brands and models.

Regardless, my K20d seems better in this area even if it is slower and gives up much sooner. In addition, the K5 error is always towards FF as far as I can tell. This FF bias or trend leads me to believe that this is a result (perhaps unintended) of one or more programming decisions made in the AF system or a hardware design or adjustment somewhere in the AF chain.

Since the bias is at least consistent in the direction of focus shift it seems to me that there is a good possibility that it can be corrected in one way or another, but perhaps I am being overly optimistic :)

Ray
 
Lenses have quite good CA corrections.
Not in the IR range. The problem develops when the AF sensor uses IR to find focus. So we have 2 effects combined
  • It finds it incorrectly due to CA in AF sensor.
  • Even if it finds it correctly (or being corrected by color temperature sensor) the correct focus in IR may be awfully incorrect in visible range no matter how low CA has the lens in visible range.
Oleg,

While this makes some optical sense, especially if the bias is consistent, I do not see where anyhone has ever been able to conclusively prove that IR is the culprit. Please post any links of tests if you have them.

Here is one thread where an IR cut filter was tested and found to not make any difference:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1036&message=21675207&q=K10D+IR+Cut&qf=m

Ray
 
Hi Gordon, I was hoping you would chime in sooner or later and I too was thinking about how the camera judges WB in very low light? I am also wondering how it judges WB if the scene contains large areas of colors like red or blue? I know that Pentax is not the only one to apply this color sensing solutiuon (the Canon 7D does as well) but I am a bit less than clear how the sensor would discriminate between actual lighting color temp and things that are say, just yellow?
I dont think it matters. If its a gray thing lit by red light or a red thing - same problem really.

Whats problematic would be if there is a mixture of black, red and gray. The black/gray edges would then have another phase than the black/red.

To me it seems like the task is really unsolvable. At least with only a cross sensor. It does not look like a sound implementation.
I am not real clear on what you are asking to be tested?
Me neither.

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Personally, for me this would be unacceptable (being unable to take indoor pictures, the camera can't even focus on bright candles on a christnmas tree!).
This would not be so. If the K10D or K20D worked fine in dim light - so would also K-5 with correction turned off.
ALL my previous Pentax DSLRs were spot on in any lighting situation.
Yes - thats probably true. The old cameras seems only to make big mistakes for bright blue or bright red things - like LEGO blocks. In tungsten light - it makes small mistakes due to CA.

The main problem with K-5 (and K-7 and K-r) seems to be the correction Pentax have added. In dim light the color sensor faulty thinks the object is e.g. bright red and over compensates.
If what you are saying were correct, I'd jump ship and carry on with a different brand.
Thats an option I am considering. But the old solution with the correction turned off is probably a just fine solution. I hope Pentax do just that - turn the correction off in dim light. If they cannot find a better correction of course.
You should also consider that some K5s and K-rs work perfectly alright.
Hmmmmm ... that might be a faulty conclusion. The effect is VERY dependent on lens chosen. For some combinations the camera works just fine.
In the afore-mentioned German thread a user from Hannover reports that he tested 4 K5s in his preferred camera shop. The last camera tested was spot on and that model he bought.
In the shop you probably test with new lenses. New lenses seems to work better.
This leads me to the assumption that the problem has something to do with quality control. As a first step, I'll send my K-r to Pentax service in Hamburg, if this doesn't help, I will have to return the camera and decide what to do...
You might be right. We are only doing educated guesswork here.

We will see how this issue is resolved.

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