An attempt to adjust focus of Sigma lens.

Well, logic says they don't adjust AF that way, so they'll never
know. :-)
You are right of course. I guess I have nothing to lose by sending it in. They could refuse to adjust it and just send it back. I sure wish I knew how they do the adjustment though, but it probably requires equipment that I don't have.

Joe
 
Well, logic says they don't adjust AF that way, so they'll never
know. :-)
You are right of course. I guess I have nothing to lose by sending it
in. They could refuse to adjust it and just send it back. I sure
wish I knew how they do the adjustment though, but it probably
requires equipment that I don't have.
I imagine it's either adjusting parameters in an equation, or loading a lookup table or map. It would be interesting to know.
 
Sorry for reviving this old thread, but I became intersted in the subject, and was baffled by (1) the idea that shims can fix front/back focus issues, and (2) why this seems to help some, but not others.

First, I found a good detailed explanation of how phase-detection AF works (unfortunately, in Russian): http://www.slrmaster.com.ua/wp/service/camera_repair/sistemy-avtofokusa-2/ . This helped me to figure out what are the two main equations for the system. The detailed explanations (and my nice plot) can be found here: http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=967488&page=2 (post #20).

If you don't want to read the whole thing, here is the main conclusion:
  • Adding/removing shims should help you to fix front/back focusing only if the camera is properly calibrated.
So presumbaly people for whom shim manupulation didn't do much had not well calibrated cameras.
 
Sorry for reviving this old thread, but I became intersted in the subject, and was baffled by (1) the idea that shims can fix front/back focus issues, and (2) why this seems to help some, but not others.

First, I found a good detailed explanation of how phase-detection AF works (unfortunately, in Russian): http://www.slrmaster.com.ua/wp/service/camera_repair/sistemy-avtofokusa-2/ .
Thanks for that link, it shows some nice diagrams. Have you seen Doug Kerr's Principle of the Split Image Focusing Aid ? His website seems to be down at the moment, but you can usually get it from http://doug.kerr.home.att.net/pumpkin/Split_Prism.pdf
This helped me to figure out what are the two main equations for the system. The detailed explanations (and my nice plot) can be found here: http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=967488&page=2 (post #20).
Interesting, but I see some problems with your analysis. You say, by modifying the lens to sensor distance you can solve both equations, and that's true - that's exactly how focussing is done (at least with a simple model of a lens). So adding or removing shims will shift the focus... until you trigger autofocus again, then the quality of focus depends on the AF sensor's ability to determine it, and that's all about measuring d.

In your original post on POTN you wondered if the body told the lens something like "focus at the object's distance of 3m". This myth has been comprehensively debunked (e.g. http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1031&message=35911287 - ignore Erik's posts, they won't help you).

Doug Kerr recently expressed the essential idea that you need to understand what's going on -

"The way in which SA [spherical aberration] gets into the picture is that the AF system works wholly with marginal rays: rays that come only from portions of the exit pupil near its edge. In the actual image on the film or sensor, these rays, because of SA, do not converge at the same point along the axis as, for example, the rays passing through the center of the exit pupil.

"Therefore, the point of 'best focus' when all rays are used (as for the actual taken image) will not be the same as the 'best focus' when only marginal rays are in play (as on the AF detector). ('Best focus' on the actual taken image is perhaps the focus situation in which the circle of confusion from SA was smallest)."

Here's the ProPhoto thread where he said it - http://www.prophotohome.com/forum/canon-1-series-digital-slr-eos-5d/91885-canon-eos-af-scheme-chuck.html (the quote is from post 59).

If you don't want to read the whole thing, here are the main conclusions: :-)

Focus is confirmed when the AF sensor says so, via an iterative closed-loop process. Quality of focus depends on the AF sensor's ability to make that judgement, and that depends on the best focus correction value that the body receives from the lens.
If you don't want to read the whole thing, here is the main conclusion:
  • Adding/removing shims should help you to fix front/back focusing only if the camera is properly calibrated.
So presumbaly people for whom shim manupulation didn't do much had not well calibrated cameras.
That's a very interesting idea, and it certainly fits with Joe Miller's experience with a calibrated body.

You might also be interested in my experience of getting my gear calibrated - http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1031&message=31555078
 
Thank you for the information! It brings some more details, but the equations I gave should stand correct, regardless of the details. It's just their interpretation may depend on extra details. E.g., I didn't distinguish between regular (full lens body movement) focus versus IF (internal focus) lenses, and I wonder what impact this would have on the shim issue. I want to think about it, and also to see, if the lenses where shims helped (Sigma 50-150 and 100-400 - does anyone know more specific models?) are IF or non-IF, and if the case where it didn't help is the opposite one. (For our purposes RF - rear focus - should behave the same way as IF).

You mentioned that lenses don't execute commands like "focus at 3m". May be the answer is in your links - I'll have a look; if not - what are the actual camera-to-lens AF commands? If it's something more detailed, then camera needs to know the specifics of the AF for this particular lens, which is probably imptactical. At the very least, camera then needs to know if it's regular or IF focus lens; may be that's what lens tell the camera at the very beginning?

....

Ok, I just checked - all three Sigma lenses in question (50-150mm f2.8, 100-300mm f4, 18-125mm OS) are listed as having IF on the Sigma website. As the first two are apparently "shim-friendly", and the last one perhaps not, IF doesn't seem to be a decisive factor for the shim issue. So my original conclusion that it's the fact if the camera itself is calibrated determines how well a lens responds to a "shimming" procedure is still the most likely one.
 
Thank you for the information! It brings some more details, but the equations I gave should stand correct, regardless of the details.
No worries. Of course the equations stand correct. The point is that d is not fixed - each lens has its own correction factor to achieve "best focus", and there's some evidence that that may vary with focal length (for zooms) and exposure aperture.
You mentioned that lenses don't execute commands like "focus at 3m". May be the answer is in your links - I'll have a look; if not - what are the actual camera-to-lens AF commands?
A subset is documented here - http://kzar.net/wiki/Photo/CanonEFProtocol - but just because a command is in that list doesn't mean that it is used with a particular lens (e.g. AFAIK, no EF or EF-S lenses have internal shutters). We just don't know what commands are used (it would be great to find out).
If it's something more detailed, then camera needs to know the specifics of the AF for this particular lens, which is probably imptactical.
Doug goes into that in some detail in the ProPhoto thread.
So my original conclusion that it's the fact if the camera itself is calibrated determines how well a lens responds to a "shimming" procedure is still the most likely one.
It's certainly an interesting idea. :-)
 

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