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Thom's remark on limits of MM and luminosity

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I can only tell you that I don't use P mode, but that's just me. I don't see anything in Hogan's remarks that tell me this camera has a problem, and he made a point of that in his followup. Perhaps you read the line you wanted to see and ignored the rest. As for all the people using P mode, I would have to reference flickr, as many of the photos have exif data. If you want to do a little survey the info is there. As far as number of complainers, there have been a couple of reasonable comments by forum members about situations that occurred with them, and I took note as something I want to be aware of when I learn from Hogan how this system is trying to do what it does. I have seen two (2) crusaders, you and your friend, who are screaming at the top of your lungs that this meter system is fatally flawed. I don't believe that.
 
so far I only know of three of you, but you are making enough noise for 20 people, so if you want to call that 20%......
 
BackInTheGame said:
I can only tell you that I don't use P mode, but that's just me. I don't see anything in Hogan's remarks that tell me this camera has a problem, and he made a point of that in his followup. Perhaps you read the line you wanted to see and ignored the rest. As for all the people using P mode, I would have to reference flickr, as many of the photos have exif data. If you want to do a little survey the info is there. As far as number of complainers, there have been a couple of reasonable comments by forum members about situations that occurred with them, and I took note as something I want to be aware of when I learn from Hogan how this system is trying to do what it does. I have seen two (2) crusaders, you and your friend, who are screaming at the top of your lungs that this meter system is fatally flawed. I don't believe that.
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who's ignoring who and what? you're wholly dismissing the observations of DPR, CameraLabs and others (as amateurs no doubt), and even ignore Thom Hogan who says in his original review:

"However, all isn't perfect. Be aware of one very big caveat: when the scene you're metering hits 16.3 EV, the matrix metering system gives up and sets its value for 16.3 EV, no matter how much more light there may be. EV 16.3 at ISO 100 is f/11 at 1/500, which is barely beyond Sunny 16. This won't occur all that often in your shooting, but it does occur sometimes, so make note of that. In really bright light conditions (snow, beach, etc.) you probably need to be in centerweighted metering."

I never said it was 'fatal'. yes, it's easy to workaround or not even encounter if you know what you are doing, but I'm not presumptuous enough to assume everyone who buys this enthusiast/ semi -pro camera does, or even should. what I am saying is that it is there , and Nikon put it there, not the ham-fisted beginners you accuse everyone who doesn't like this behavior of being.
 
Steve Bingham said:
"Nonetheless, it’s a Matrix limitation, even in M mode."

Says who? I certainly don't read it that way and, shooting Aperture or Shutter priority, I have yet to blow an exposure since October. And yes, I use Matrix Metering most the time - along with raw. This would be a HUGE mistake on Nikon's part - and totally illogical. 16.3EV limitation on a 20 EV system? Nonsense.

However, if you have "evidence" to the contrary I will certainly be willing to change my mind.
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All you have to do is test it yourself.

.
 
Gunzorro said:
Ha-ha! Touche!

I do have more photos than the wooden fence in my gallery.
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Never occurred to me to look at them.

Well, I did now, and I think that my horse beats anything you have - on the first page; did not check more.
Gunzorro said:
Yes, sweet horse.
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Thanks.

Please rest assured, that I am well aware that it shows slight back focus and MM did not nail the exposure exactly the way I wanted it to.
 
Shouting for all those poor unsuspecting buyers. When someone sinks $1200 dollars into a camera, I assume they did some research and made an informed decision. I've seen your comments of how great Canon and Pentax handle metering, and if it is true they will soon have all Nikon's market share. I don't own stock in Nikon.

Now you and Gunzorro have done your best to populate every thread in this forum with complaints about the Nikon metering system. You say you are doing that because of a minor glitch and that you want to force Nikon to fix it in the interest of photographers everywhere?

I say you are a bit ingenuous. If this camera is as bad as you say, and all the others are so good, why do you still have this camera? Your friend still has it, and I assume you do as well. Do you still have it? If you do, why? Do you keep it as a pass to scream about a shortcoming I don't believe is even there? Or do you want to take pictures? If a lens gets in my way it's gone, period. I have to say I never felt a Nikon camera got in my way, limited as my demands may be. If it did you might hear from me, but only after it's gone. If you want to take pictures, and you want to do it with this camera, I suggest you first find a way to adjust to the way the camera functions, second write a letter to Nikon or call tech support when you encounter a difficulty, third let people know here if you wish, and fourth take some more pictures. What you are doing is crusading. And the name calling can go both ways, so you should maybe watch that. Your friend brought up the galleries, not me. But I do respond.

I have looked at tons of beautiful photos taken with the D7000, and I have read every scrap of good info I can find. If I get it, and it doesn't give me what I want, I will get rid of it. I might even post one thread about it. But I will have made an informed decision about buying it, and I will have studied to be sure I can get what I need from it this year. If it doesn't work out, it's my fault - not Nikon's, not Thom Hogan's, not anybody's but mine. No body is coming to my house with a gun to make me buy it, and no one will be at my house with a gun to make me keep it. I suspect there is no one at your house with a gun forcing you to keep it either.
 
Gunzorro wrote:
([!!!] emphasis mine)
Gunzorro said:
Today, I contacted Nikon USA tech support [...] I'm impressed these companies have such technically adept and well mannered personnel. Kudos!

Anyway, the support person was not at all surpised about my issues with back focusing, and inquired in detail about the methods I'd used to determine the overal "fault". I was assured that it be an easy matter to deal with[!!!] He also listened patiently [!!!] to my concern about the MM and slight over-exposure, and again assured me it shouldn't be a problem[!!!]. That was very helpful and reassuring to hear. :)
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Well, finally! someone listened to you.
Gunzorro said:
I'll probably take it in after then main holidays, because I'd still like to play with it. But maybe next week, or right after New Year.
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Good. Don not keep us posted.
Gunzorro said:
BTW -- Based on the responses of the technician, I did get the clear impression I was not alone in bringing up these issues.
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OMG!
I now suspect you are twelve.

You yourself said the support personnel were pros. Did you expect them to say RTFM?
 
BackInTheGame said:
Shouting for all those poor unsuspecting buyers. When someone sinks $1200 dollars into a camera, I assume they did some research and made an informed decision. I've seen your comments of how great Canon and Pentax handle metering, and if it is true they will soon have all Nikon's market share. I don't own stock in Nikon.
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wrong person. please find where I've compared Nikon's metering accuracy to Canon or Pentax.
Member said:
Now you and Gunzorro have done your best to populate every thread in this forum with complaints about the Nikon metering system. You say you are doing that because of a minor glitch and that you want to force Nikon to fix it in the interest of photographers everywhere?
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I'd just like it to be acknowledged. By Nikon and brand zealots (thankfully, not many of you) who brush off any Nikon criticisms by attacking the user and their skills.
Member said:
I say you are a bit ingenuous. If this camera is as bad as you say, and all the others are so good, why do you still have this camera? Your friend still has it, and I assume you do as well. Do you still have it? If you do, why? Do you keep it as a pass to scream about a shortcoming I don't believe is even there? Or do you want to take pictures? If a lens gets in my way it's gone, period. I have to say I never felt a Nikon camera got in my way, limited as my demands may be. If it did you might hear from me, but only after it's gone. If you want to take pictures, and you want to do it with this camera, I suggest you first find a way to adjust to the way the camera functions, second write a letter to Nikon or call tech support when you encounter a difficulty, third let people know here if you wish, and fourth take some more pictures. What you are doing is crusading. And the name calling can go both ways, so you should maybe watch that. Your friend brought up the galleries, not me. But I do respond.
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I do not know the other poster, he speaks for himself. I do know my way around this problem, but feel personally bad for the people I've recommended this otherwise great camera to. I will make sure to send them a copy of Hogan's guide ASAP, which seems to be your answer for everything.
Member said:
I have looked at tons of beautiful photos taken with the D7000, and I have read every scrap of good info I can find. If I get it, and it doesn't give me what I want, I will get rid of it. I might even post one thread about it. But I will have made an informed decision about buying it, and I will have studied to be sure I can get what I need from it this year. If it doesn't work out, it's my fault - not Nikon's, not Thom Hogan's, not anybody's but mine. No body is coming to my house with a gun to make me buy it, and no one will be at my house with a gun to make me keep it. I suspect there is no one at your house with a gun forcing you to keep it either.
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apparently, "good" info is only info that doesn't acknowledge any weaknesses, because you dismiss anything that does.

and read DPR's new review of the $650 entry-level D3100. same problem. i'm guessing people who buy their first DSLR should know how to expose their shots on the fly, have Hogan's book memorized, and pay no attention to DPR.

also note that the various threads about metering have been started by others. just because the problem doesn't effect you doesn't mean it's not a problem.
 
rhlpetrus said:
Thom, in his D7K review, wrote this about the MM system of D7K:

"Be aware of one very big caveat: when the scene you're metering hits 16.3 EV, the matrix metering system gives up and sets its value for 16.3 EV, no matter how much more light there may be. EV 16.3 at ISO 100 is f/11 at 1/500, which is barely beyond Sunny 16."

Is this common to all Nikon dslrs?
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It seems like it has been there before.

Anyway, I am sorry your thread had degenerated to what it is at this phase. I see no small part of it being my own. I will try not to post here anymore.

That is, unless poster Zorro comes up with something meaningful, which I am sure he won't :)
 
My personal experience is that in bright conditions like summer in Australia the matrix meter gives up and runs away and overexposes the bejesus out of everything. MM is good for indoors and lower light situations.

A real shame. The solution so far is to use centre weighted. Much more realiable and consistent.

My experience is that with the pentax k5 it underexposes ( consistently) in matrix and 450 canon is usually spot on in bright conditions but not very consistent in low light (which the d7000 gets everytime and the k5 sometimes)
 
ott77n said:
That is, unless poster Zorro comes up with something meaningful, which I am sure he won't :)
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I'm not zorro but I but I read this off the spec sheet.

EV 0 to 20 (3D color matrix or center-weighted metering)

So where does EV 16.3 come from?
 
I almost only shoot in Aperture priority mode. The matrix metering is as bad in that mode. Often very overexposed and inconsistent.
 
Yes. Matrix metering is an improvement when it comes to metering technique. At least when it's done well. As in the pre-D80 cameras.
 
page 298 in the manual. apparently it's a ceiling that only the Program mode imposes
Barry Fitzgerald said:
ott77n said:
That is, unless poster Zorro comes up with something meaningful, which I am sure he won't :)
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I'm not zorro but I but I read this off the spec sheet.

EV 0 to 20 (3D color matrix or center-weighted metering)

So where does EV 16.3 come from?
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binary -- Not contradictory at all. I generally shoot straight Manual and RAW, checkin only to see if my ISO matches my subject, which is usually 100-200 or 800-1600. Pretty simple for my professional assignments regardless of brand or model.

I think what you might have misunderstood in my comments was that I dislike hidden global settings, those that don't show up on display. When the action gets tense, it seems these always wreak havoc and distress. I prefer smooth sailing on assignments, not coming up with work arounds to get around a overlooked work around that's already in place.

In those regards, I don't feel like chasing settings or trying to keep track of what might not be an obvious setting, especially a global one.

So, the P&S is even smaller. Good to know. Sorry, I'm only marginally familiar with them. I've never owned one, but thought about it a number of times.
binary_eye said:
Gunzorro said:
I like using DSLR cameras for the complete control it offers.
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Yet you just wrote that you can't be bothered to change settings for different shooting situations. That seems a bit contradictory.

Aside from personal shooting, I mainly shoot events, sports, and studio. All three require different settings. As a photographer being paid to do such things, it's my job to know which settings are best for the given situation and to use them. If I were to use studio settings to shoot a football game, "I didn't feel like changing the settings" would be a poor excuse for a botched shoot.
binary_eye said:
Also DSLR's offer a much larger sensor than your P&S -- about 4X if you are using a full frame sensor.
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The only P&S I own is a Canon SD400. It has a crop factor of about 6x. Most compacts these days use a 1/2.3" sensor which translates to crop factor of about 5.5x. The "large sensor" compacts such as the P7000, LX5, S95, etc., have a crop factor of about 4.7x.
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Back -- Who and their friend said the meter is fatally flawed? I missed those posts.
 
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