n057
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All I want is APS, not 35 mm, so I would not buy that camera which would give me a cropped viewfinder
JC
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Will you buy a D400 if it comes out?
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JC
Some cameras, some lenses, some computers
All I want is APS, not 35 mm, so I would not buy that camera which would give me a cropped viewfinder
My point is not whether there should be a DX format, or the merits vs FF. The topic is about whether you would buy a hypothetical "D400". A decision based on whether it would be FF is not germane, as the implication is that the D400 would be an upgrade/replacement to the D300/s at the top of the DX line. So, by definition, the hypothetical D400 would have to be a DX body. If the topic was about a new FF body, then we would be talking about whether you would purchase the D700s or D800 or D4.
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dirtfan21
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I just switch from Olympus to Nikon D300, so if it came out in the next year or two I would get it I need a second camera body. I have the lens I need. Just lookin for a SB800 or SB900 flash and a better body then my D300.
So I answered the OPs question. I stated only if it is FF. Since by your words it will not be FF, then no. I will not be getting one, as I said before, who needs another crop sensor camera.
Simon Garrett
Veteran Member
Well,
I haven't quite made up my mind yet! Can I let you know later?
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- We don't know the specifications of the "D400", and speculation has varied wildly on what the "D400" might turn out to be
- We don't know the price
- We don't know when it will appear
- We don't know for sure if it will appear
I haven't quite made up my mind yet! Can I let you know later?
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olyflyer
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To me the DX is a "crop camera", yes. We could also call it "half frame" but that's not an established term. I don't mind anyone calling my D300s a crop camera at all.
olyflyer
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I don't know anything about his crusade, but "35FF" is definitely wrong. 35mm is the width of the film where the 24x36mm images are recorded. There is no "35FF" since "FF" is the format and 35mm is the width of the film. The same film is used even for half frame PEN and many other formats, so FF has nothing to do with 35mm. In digital there is no film and no perforations, so to record a 24x36mm image in landscape orientation you don't need 35mm width (disregarding the real size of the image sensor). "35FF" is just pointless.
I don't know in 1980, but yes, before that and after Olympus introduced the PEN, a half frame camera, I remember people calling 24x36 "full frame".
Ed Agter
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I have a D300 and I'm very happy with that one but I need an upgrade for my D200 and will buy one when the D400 is for sale.
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Tony Beach
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To some an FX/135 format camera is a "crop camera" format compared to MFDBs and 645 DLSRs. At the other extreme, no one calls P&S cameras with their truly tiny sensors "cropped cameras."
MFDB and 645 DSLRs are better candidates for the "cropped camera" designation because they are in fact crops of the legacy medium film formats, but no one goes around calling them "cropped cameras" because that would be ludicrous.
I do, and that was (as I recall) Thom Hogan's issue as well. DX/APS-C formats are the same size they've always been, they are discreet formats and not crops of themselves or any other format [otherwise, see the first paragraph]. The lens argument doesn't fly for me because there are lenses specifically designed for DX, 4/3, and NEX cameras that use DX/APS-C formats.
Tony Beach
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I shouldn't have called it a "crusade."
Perhaps that's why Thom appears to have stopped using "35FF." Thom has even started writing "FF" on his website. That doesn't deter me from discomfort with the "FF" designation that predates what Thom once wrote about and practiced here at DPR.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/135_film
Other than in the context of digital photography, "full frame" as a format is only mentioned in quotes.
People call things all sorts of things, but when I was young we shot with 35mm film cameras and no one in the general public ever said "full frame" in that context. The industry refers to it as 135 format: http://www.fujifilm.com/products/professional_films/color_reversalfilms/velvia_50/ Go here: http://store.kodak.com/DRHM/store and try to buy "full frame film" and they'll send you to picture frames. Type in 135 film in their search engine and you get this: http://store.kodak.com/store/ekconsus/en_US/pd/T-MAX_100_Film__135__36_exp/baseProductID.188418800/productID.188418900 That's why I call it 135 format.
As I see it, crop is in relation to the standard of the mount.
The F-mount, or the EOS mount, or the A-mount are all 135 format mounts. This is also true for lenses. Thus, anything less than 135 are crops of said mounts. The same is true for MFDBs, the standard for mounts and lenses is 6x4.5+, thus the cheaper MFDBs like the Pentax 645D are crops of the format. Full frame cameras use the whole frame the mount is intended to. But no-one says that a D3x is a crop Phase One P 65+, or that the P65+ is a crop 4x5". All are full-frame cameras.
You rarely see m43/43 referred to as crop-cameras, and more often as, well, m43/43 cameras. There are no full-frame cameras or lenses for that mount. Some, like Pentax, are still called crop-cameras, even though they don't make any full-frame gear. But as they're so similar to other APS-C cameras, and the K-mount is a 135 mount, it's still understandable.
The F-mount, or the EOS mount, or the A-mount are all 135 format mounts. This is also true for lenses. Thus, anything less than 135 are crops of said mounts. The same is true for MFDBs, the standard for mounts and lenses is 6x4.5+, thus the cheaper MFDBs like the Pentax 645D are crops of the format. Full frame cameras use the whole frame the mount is intended to. But no-one says that a D3x is a crop Phase One P 65+, or that the P65+ is a crop 4x5". All are full-frame cameras.
You rarely see m43/43 referred to as crop-cameras, and more often as, well, m43/43 cameras. There are no full-frame cameras or lenses for that mount. Some, like Pentax, are still called crop-cameras, even though they don't make any full-frame gear. But as they're so similar to other APS-C cameras, and the K-mount is a 135 mount, it's still understandable.
Tony Beach
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We should just move past "FF" and "crop formats." That is, if we were ever really there. Try to find any company or reputable source that refers to a "crop format" or "crop camera" (that was the term that started this debate) and you will not find it.
Mounts are not formats. You can use different formats with the same mount; and there are even adapters to mount lenses from a different format to a smaller format, so you can use a 135 format DSLR as a cropped camera too. Also, imagine if Nikon had created a new mount for DX format [this isn't merely hypothetical, see the last paragraph below], then your reason for referring to DX as a crop format should not exist in the first place.
It would be fair to say that the 135 format lenses are cropped, but that isn't a necessary condition of DX format as there are DX lenses; and lenses, mounts, and formats are all separate aspects of the camera.
I believe the Pentax 645D is a DSLR. Anyway, can you direct me to anyone calling the 645D or MFDBs "cropped cameras?"
That is one rationalization. However, historically full frame has meant you use the entire format rather than for instance just half of it (which is half frame).
No one says that because they are different formats, just as DX/APS-C are a different formats from FX/135.
All cameras are full frame until you crop them. I take full frame shots with my D300 all the time.
My point is that this is torturing the language, and that it is basically agenda driven. Designating some cameras as "FF" as if that automatically makes them better (and it doesn't) has lead to the inverse of that, and I would say that about 90% of the time when I hear someone referring to a "crop camera" or "crop format" it is meant to be disparaging.
NEX cameras have an E mount. They use the same sized sensor as DX cameras use. There will be no larger sensors used on those cameras. The same thing is likely to happen with Nikon when they introduce a mirrorless camera. So we will have two cameras using the same sensor (Sony already has this) and by your definition one will be "FF" and the other will be "crop format" or a "crop camera" -- as far as I'm concerned, that doesn't make sense.
jeminijoseph
Veteran Member
That's true with any of the new features of any camera. I was really excited when d300 was announced and I knew the feature set is going to keep me happy for at least 3 years. It did and I can go for another year with that. The biggest of all the features was the 51 point AF. If Nikon give us the pro AF with the best crop sensor Available at the time I will be happy.
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Mark Tuccillo
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Yep! My D200 is now 5 years old and it's time to upgrade. It l produces great images, but I want better high ISO. With 40K exposures on it now, it has never let me down once. Considering how good the D7000 is, I expect the D400 to be mind blowing.
Mounts are usually designed for formats. As I already said the EOS and F mounts were designed for 135. Even when using a Hassy lens on a D3 your still using the full frame of the 135.
Just read forums where MFDBs are discussed. The smaller formats are regularly referred to as cropped, as they crop the lenses.
The difference is that DX a crop of the 135. You can take your D3x, and shoot it in crop mode, or full-frame. But the D300 cant shoot using the full 135 frame it's mount and most of its lenses was designed for. As for the NEX or a future Nikon mirrorless, only if it were to use the F-mount would it be a crop-camera. And it's highly unlikely that it will. If it uses a mount designed for APS-C, and has a lens ecosystem designed for APS-C, then it isn't a crop.
Personally, I think you're reading to much in to it. As I see it it describes what's happening in a very intuitive way. You take the original format, crop x away from the edges, and you've got a FOV and sensor size representative of the smaller format.
Just read forums where MFDBs are discussed. The smaller formats are regularly referred to as cropped, as they crop the lenses.
The difference is that DX a crop of the 135. You can take your D3x, and shoot it in crop mode, or full-frame. But the D300 cant shoot using the full 135 frame it's mount and most of its lenses was designed for. As for the NEX or a future Nikon mirrorless, only if it were to use the F-mount would it be a crop-camera. And it's highly unlikely that it will. If it uses a mount designed for APS-C, and has a lens ecosystem designed for APS-C, then it isn't a crop.
Personally, I think you're reading to much in to it. As I see it it describes what's happening in a very intuitive way. You take the original format, crop x away from the edges, and you've got a FOV and sensor size representative of the smaller format.
richardday
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I will have to wait for a few years before I can justify replacing my D300s. I've given up on being an early adopter for most things, far too much pain! 
I may go for the D400s when the D500 is imminent!
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I may go for the D400s when the D500 is imminent!
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Tony Beach
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If I'm not mistaken, every MFDB has a cropped FOV relative to film medium formats and the lenses that were originally designed for those formats. Given that, show me where photographers regularly call MFDBs as "cropped format cameras."
The D2x/D2xs have HSC mode.
First, as I wrote in my previous reply to you which you simply ignored in repeating this mount equals format argument, mounts are not formats.
I'm not cropping the image circle of DX lenses using a DX camera, so if all my lenses are DX then the argument that my camera is a "crop camera" doesn't hold up either, and many photographers have nothing but DX/APS-C format lenses (and no camera company calls them "crop format" lenses). As for most lenses being designed to cover a larger than DX/APS-C image format, I bet more DX/APS-C format lenses are sold these days than 135 format lenses. Also, I am not aware of any camera that refers to their non-DX/APS-C lenses as "full frame" lenses.
Then there is no "crop format." DX/APS-C is the format, regardless of the mount or camera system that uses it. As for "cropped cameras," I addressed that above in this reply as well as in other replies in this thread, and I will repeat it yet again in the second to last paragraph of this reply.
Intuitive is not always right; often what is right is counterintuitive. Taking advantage of people's intuitions (even when that is wrong) is what marketing does all the time.
That's fine when I'm using my 135 format camera and want to crop to a DX sized format, but it is no more accurate to say that DX/APS-C format DSLRs are "crop cameras" than it is to say that FX/135 format DSLRs are "crop cameras" because I can crop a medium format file to match the smaller sensor's FOV.
Here's what I suspect will happen over the next few years. With dedicated camera systems using DX/APS-C formats, the "cropped camera/format" designation will go away; however, I expect that "FF" will remain the commonly used term for 135 format even as the vast majority of photographers use smaller formats.
The high-end MFDBs use sensors the same size as 6x4.5 film, and thus native to their mounts.
And I didn't ignore anything, but you might have missed that twice I said that mounts are usually(always?) designed with a format in mind. If you use only DX lenses doesn't change that. And on the F-mount current full-frame lenses outnumber crop lenses almost 4 to 1. And that's ignoring legacy lenses.
Every manufacturer I know of differentiates between crop and FF lenses. They clearly state which lenses have a image-circle covering the full 135 frame, and which lenses don't.
http://imaging.nikon.com/products/imaging/lineup/lens/list.htm
All FF lenses are designated by the FX badge.
You seem to be missing the point I'm trying to make, as your arguments do not correlate with what I've said. It might be a mistake, but the points you bring up are straw-men.
Weather intuition is always right or not doesn't matter at all. It's correct for this case, and that's all that matter for this discussion.
Weather you can crop a MF frame down to 35mm doesn't change anything. A DX camera is still only using a cropped part of the 135 the F-mount was designed for. When using most F-mount lenses, you'll only be using a cropped part of the image-circle. But a 120 camera is using the whole of it's frame.
I agree that the term cropped will disappear once cropped cameras are no longer manufactured.
And I didn't ignore anything, but you might have missed that twice I said that mounts are usually(always?) designed with a format in mind. If you use only DX lenses doesn't change that. And on the F-mount current full-frame lenses outnumber crop lenses almost 4 to 1. And that's ignoring legacy lenses.
Every manufacturer I know of differentiates between crop and FF lenses. They clearly state which lenses have a image-circle covering the full 135 frame, and which lenses don't.
http://imaging.nikon.com/products/imaging/lineup/lens/list.htm
All FF lenses are designated by the FX badge.
You seem to be missing the point I'm trying to make, as your arguments do not correlate with what I've said. It might be a mistake, but the points you bring up are straw-men.
Weather intuition is always right or not doesn't matter at all. It's correct for this case, and that's all that matter for this discussion.
Weather you can crop a MF frame down to 35mm doesn't change anything. A DX camera is still only using a cropped part of the 135 the F-mount was designed for. When using most F-mount lenses, you'll only be using a cropped part of the image-circle. But a 120 camera is using the whole of it's frame.
I agree that the term cropped will disappear once cropped cameras are no longer manufactured.
KSQPhotography
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Probably so, since I am looking for a backup camera to my D300. If the D400 or whatever it will be call is as good or better then my D300, then it will become my backup camera. Sounds like a plan to me
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