Canon 1Ds price too high? Nope.

Steven Noyes · Nov 4, 2002

Cost relates only to what people are willing to pay. That is what derives value to a product. So in that since, you are not right. If Canon sells all of these things that they can produce at $8000, they got the price right (maybe to low!!!). If they sit on the shelf and no one wants them, then, AND ONLY THEN, are they priced to high.

Steven

Thomas Gardner said:
Ahhhhh! The dogging insults continue.

You don't know for a fact if I'm right or I'm wrong. You're
guessing, as you don't know how much it costs to manufacture,
promote and/or sell the 1Ds and turn a profit, nor do I. The only
way you could know if I'm wrong is if you are part of the Canon
business chain and are privy to Canon's manufacturing development
costs of the 1Ds. Are you a part of Canon's business chain?

And now because I refuse to agree with you, I'm being disingenuous
as in dishonest and I lack the intellectual ability to understand
the error of my thinking.

If you continue to dog me then my original premise about you being
a controlling personality will be borne out by your actions.

My, my, my!

--
---
My really bad Fall Adventures:
http://www.pbase.com/snoyes/fall_adventures_2002

andyfrazer · Nov 4, 2002

Steven Noyes said:
Because you do not see the value in this camera, you see it as a
rip off. There are aspects of this camera that many people will
find great value in. Others not. In your case, you do not see
$8000 worth of value in it for your self. You are then equating
this to not having $8000 worth of value for ANYONE.

Me, I see $6000 to $6500 worth of value in it, so for me it is
priced to high. If I was better or able to make a living at this,
the value would be much higher.

So say, "I think the camera is priced to high for me for the value
I get." Don't refer to other people as not seeing this as a rip
off because they do see value in what the 1Ds offers.

Steven

Very well put!

But I'm afraid your argument is so clear and truthful that others on this forum, and I won't mention any names, will be forced to respond to your posting by either 1). changing the intent of what you said, or 2). ignoring what you said and implying something different ("gorilla dust" as Ross Perot used to call it).

Andy Frazer
http://www.gorillasites.com

Michael Porter · Nov 4, 2002

I would say it if it was what I meant. But it wasn't I was attempting to be humorous.

Here's what I think. The market, not Canon, ultimately sets the price. You, and your opinion and expressing your opinion are a valuable part of creating that market. Go for it and use any language that you wish. In the end, the market will vote with its dollars and the market price for the product will result.

"You thief!, That camel is not worth two pesettos! Who would want such a miserable, diseased beast?" People all over the world haggle and love to haggle. If they can't haggle directly with Canon, they will haggle on a fourm like this. Short of that, they will haggle with themselves, trying to talk themselves out of or into purchasing something. It's good that you post your opinion on this forum.

However, when you post in a public forum you offer your words up for judgement. If you use a term like "rip off" don't be suprised if you get some reaction. The Internet is not like church. It's more like a wild west saloon. Choose your words carefully or be prepared to fight.

Thomas Gardner said:
Michael Porter said:

Please pardon my temerity.

Click to expand...

I'm not challenging you! You're welcome to speak up. If
ridiculing other's serves a purpose, then have at it.

I have no problem with those that disagree with my opinion. But
what I don't understand is the need for someone to dog opinions
that differ from their's.

Why don't you come right out and say it.

Sit down and shut up because your opinon is out of step with mine.

Thomas Gardner · Nov 4, 2002

Steven Noyes said:
So say, "I think the camera is priced to high for me for the value
I get." Don't refer to other people as not seeing this as a rip
off because they do see value in what the 1Ds offers.

I know, I know, sit down and shut up. Why? Because I have a differing point of view then you do.

I have said that you and others are welcome to spend as much as you want on anything you want and that's fine. But don't expect me to think what you and others are doing is smart or otherwise. I'm not going to agree with your decision. You don't have my seal of approval.

I didn't realize that it was illegal to think someones behavior was stupid or that a company's pricing policies are rip off policies.

You and other are protesting my comments just a tad too much. Why's that? Why should you care what I think? Maybe there's a hint of truth to my comment? If you think my comments are wrong, then let it go. It's okay for a person to have a differing point of view or an opinion that is differ from you.

Thomas Gardner · Nov 4, 2002

Steven Noyes said:
Cost relates only to what people are willing to pay. That is what
derives value to a product. So in that since, you are not right.
If Canon sells all of these things that they can produce at $8000,
they got the price right (maybe to low!!!). If they sit on the
shelf and no one wants them, then, AND ONLY THEN, are they priced
to high.

Steven

I know, I know, sit down and shut up. Why? Because you're right. Why? Because you think I'm wrong.

Thomas Gardner · Nov 4, 2002

Michael Porter said:
However, when you post in a public forum you offer your words up
for judgement. If you use a term like "rip off" don't be suprised
if you get some reaction. The Internet is not like church. It's
more like a wild west saloon. Choose your words carefully or be
prepared to fight.

Oh my! now we're in a "wild west saloon".

What's the name of this cartoon.

"Choose your words carefully..." You're funny.

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahahahahaHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!

Why pardner, in my opinon, Canon is ripping people. Now, I'm not carrying a gun, what are you going to do? Shoot me!

You have control problems if you think that the Web and DPReview is a "wild west saloon" and I have to worry about a fight.

Aaaaah, bar keep, another glass of Merlot here! No I don't want a glass, after it's done breathing, I'll drink it straight from the bottle.

Michael Porter · Nov 4, 2002

Now Tom, you wouldn't be trying to ridicule anyone, would you?

Thomas Gardner said:
Michael Porter said:

However, when you post in a public forum you offer your words up
for judgement. If you use a term like "rip off" don't be suprised
if you get some reaction. The Internet is not like church. It's
more like a wild west saloon. Choose your words carefully or be
prepared to fight.

Click to expand...

Oh my! now we're in a "wild west saloon".

What's the name of this cartoon.

"Choose your words carefully..." You're funny.

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahahahahaHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!

Why pardner, in my opinon, Canon is ripping people. Now, I'm not
carrying a gun, what are you going to do? Shoot me!

You have control problems if you think that the Web and DPReview is
a "wild west saloon" and I have to worry about a fight.

Aaaaah, bar keep, another glass of Merlot here! No I don't want a
glass, after it's done breathing, I'll drink it straight from the
bottle.

Thomas Gardner · Nov 4, 2002

Michael Porter said:
Now Tom, you wouldn't be trying to ridicule anyone, would you?

After that stupid comment about this being a "wild west saloon"..... Yes!

Michael Porter · Nov 4, 2002

Yeah, ya plugged me good, pardner!

Thomas Gardner said:
Michael Porter said:

Now Tom, you wouldn't be trying to ridicule anyone, would you?

Click to expand...

After that stupid comment about this being a "wild west
saloon"..... Yes!

Thomas Gardner · Nov 4, 2002

Michael Porter said:
Yeah, ya plugged me good, pardner!

I'm sorry. Can I get you a doctor? Would you like to use my cell to make a call? Cigar?

Michael Porter · Nov 4, 2002

No need. Your words made my point for me. I'll die happy.

Thomas Gardner said:
Michael Porter said:

Yeah, ya plugged me good, pardner!

Click to expand...

I'm sorry. Can I get you a doctor? Would you like to use my cell
to make a call? Cigar?

wiscoahu · Nov 4, 2002

Thomas Gardner said:
Thomas Gardner said:

I know, I know, sit down and shut up. Why? Because I have a

Click to expand...

differing point of view then you do.

Thomas, I don't see anyone saying that you should sit down and shut up. If you are interpreting other's comments as such, it is MY OPINION that you are an incredibly negative person (I have a friend like that, they interpret many things people say as negative when it isn't).

Thomas Gardner said:
I have said that you and others are welcome to spend as much as you
want on anything you want and that's fine.

Thanks for your approval to spend money, I was going to ask if you felt it was OK.

Thomas Gardner said:
But don't expect me to think what you and others are doing is smart or > otherwise.

Um, OK.

Thomas Gardner said:
I'm not going to agree with your decision.

I don't care if you agree or not.

Thomas Gardner said:
You don't have my seal of approval.

I don't care if I have your seal of approval.

Thomas Gardner said:
I didn't realize that it was illegal to think someones behavior was stupid > or that a company's pricing policies are rip off policies.

It isn't illegal, as it is MY OPINION that your behavior has been bordering on stupid and it is MY OPINION that your advice is a rip off (and it is free).

Thomas Gardner said:
You and other are protesting my comments just a tad too much.
Why's that?

I am not protesting your comments, I have rather enjoyed reading this thread and attempting to follow your logic.

Thomas Gardner said:
Why should you care what I think?

I don't.

Thomas Gardner said:
Maybe there's a hint of truth to my comment?

Well, it is MY OPINION that your comments don't contain truths, rather, they contain OPIONIONS.

Thomas Gardner said:
If you think my comments are wrong, then let it go.

If your comments are all opinions, they cannot be wrong, however, other's opinions are entitled to the same respect that yours are.

Thomas Gardner said:
It's okay for a person to have a differing point of view or an opinion that > is differ from you.

Now you are being rational.

SteveDude · Nov 4, 2002

Man, you crack me up. All this wasted energy complaining about something that obviously isn't an issue (Canon "duping" us), when you could be out taking a great picture. Just cracks me up.

Sure enough, Canon might have changed their price-point, but the supply and demand (not to mention the next generation of advancements) will change that soon enough. Right now they are bringing out a very expensive product on the bleeding edge - I understand this. Some will choose to be on that edge, and they will have the best of the best but will have to pay for it. Others will have to wait a while until it "comes to the masses" at a lower price point.

Obviously you are just going to have to wait - you're just one of the "masses".

(I can't wait to see your reaction to THIS).

Thomas Gardner said:
Michael Porter said:

Yeah, ya plugged me good, pardner!

Click to expand...

I'm sorry. Can I get you a doctor? Would you like to use my cell
to make a call? Cigar?

--
D60, Canon ElanIIe, 28-135IS

Thomas Gardner · Nov 4, 2002

HuffyChicken said:
Thomas Gardner said:

wiscoahu said:

I know, I know, sit down and shut up. Why? Because I have a

Click to expand...

differing point of view then you do.

Click to expand...

Thomas, I don't see anyone saying that you should sit down and shut
up. If you are interpreting other's comments as such, it is MY
OPINION that you are an incredibly negative person (I have a friend
like that, they interpret many things people say as negative when
it isn't).

And I'm not going to dog you because you believe that.

wiscoahu said:
wiscoahu said:

I have said that you and others are welcome to spend as much as you
want on anything you want and that's fine.

Click to expand...

Thanks for your approval to spend money, I was going to ask if you
felt it was OK.

wiscoahu said:
wiscoahu said:

I'm not going to agree with your decision.

Click to expand...

I don't care if you agree or not.

Cool.

wiscoahu said:
wiscoahu said:

You don't have my seal of approval.

Click to expand...

I don't care if I have your seal of approval.

Now you're getting it

wiscoahu said:
wiscoahu said:

I didn't realize that it was illegal to think someones behavior was stupid > or that a company's pricing policies are rip off policies.

Click to expand...

It isn't illegal, as it is MY OPINION that your behavior has been
bordering on stupid and it is MY OPINION that your advice is a rip
off (and it is free).

Good for you. I'm glad to see differing opinions don't bother you.

wiscoahu said:
wiscoahu said:

You and other are protesting my comments just a tad too much.
Why's that?

Click to expand...

I am not protesting your comments, I have rather enjoyed reading
this thread and attempting to follow your logic.

wiscoahu said:

Why should you care what I think?

Click to expand...

I don't.

See how easy it is.

wiscoahu said:
wiscoahu said:

Maybe there's a hint of truth to my comment?

Click to expand...

Well, it is MY OPINION that your comments don't contain truths,
rather, they contain OPIONIONS.

And I've made it abundently clear that this is my opinion but there's always the possibility that my opinon has truth in it.

wiscoahu said:
wiscoahu said:

If you think my comments are wrong, then let it go.

Click to expand...

If your comments are all opinions, they cannot be wrong, however,
other's opinions are entitled to the same respect that yours are.

Aaaaah, the rub, there isn't respect for my opinion by a certain few.

wiscoahu said:
wiscoahu said:

It's okay for a person to have a differing point of view or an opinion that > is differ from you.

Click to expand...

Now you are being rational.

I was being rational, even when you didn't agree with me. Do you know what rational means? It means by the standards of the society at large and at no time did my train of logic step outside the bounds of the "Silicon Valley" society that I live, eat and breath in.

Thomas Gardner · Nov 4, 2002

SteveDude said:
Man, you crack me up. All this wasted energy complaining about
something that obviously isn't an issue (Canon "duping" us), when
you could be out taking a great picture. Just cracks me up.

I'm sorry, you're not finding this entertaining? I find it entertaing.

Today? I was out scouting a new photographic location. Mavrick's off Pillar Point, Half Moon Bay, California, USA.

http://surfermag.com/features/oneworld/mavsopinion/

Spent four hours on the mission and purposefully didn't pull the camera out as this was a scouting mission and I wanted my eyes unincumbered.

I was given the name of the person in charge of the Air Base for approval of accessing the base should I clear the approval process. Stopped at three surf shops to learn more about Mavrick's. Got a web address; (surfermag.com) Found out about five day forcasts on surf conditions. Surf's expected to be up (twenty plus feet) on Friday and Saturday. Got the name and phone number of a person that shoots the surf at Mavrick's so I can avail myself of his photographic experience should he care to share with me. So, unbeknownst to you, I was working on my next set of images.

As to great pictures, this was the result of Saturday's efforts.

http://www.photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=1100282

Is it great? I think it's an excellent example of texture and light. It'll be up to other's to decide it's greatness.

SteveDude said:
Sure enough, Canon might have changed their price-point, but the
supply and demand (not to mention the next generation of
advancements) will change that soon enough. Right now they are
bringing out a very expensive product on the bleeding edge - I
understand this. Some will choose to be on that edge, and they
will have the best of the best but will have to pay for it. Others
will have to wait a while until it "comes to the masses" at a lower
price point.

Obviously you are just going to have to wait - you're just one of
the "masses". (I can't wait to see your reaction to THIS).

What, you think that writing the truth is going to upset me? All of us are part of the masses, it's not a news flash.

Dogged by another dog.

wiscoahu · Nov 4, 2002

Thomas Gardner said:
And I've made it abundently clear that this is my opinion but
there's always the possibility that my opinon has truth in it.

Yes Thomas, an objective person would state that it is possible that an opinion has truth in it.

Thomas Gardner said:
Thomas Gardner said:

If your comments are all opinions, they cannot be wrong, however,
other's opinions are entitled to the same respect that yours are.

Click to expand...

Aaaaah, the rub, there isn't respect for my opinion by a certain few.

If others don't respect your opinion, that is too bad.

Thomas Gardner said:
Thomas Gardner said:

Thomas Gardner said:

It's okay for a person to have a differing point of view or an opinion that > is differ from you.

Click to expand...

Now you are being rational.

Click to expand...

I was being rational, even when you didn't agree with me. Do you
know what rational means? It means by the standards of the society
at large and at no time did my train of logic step outside the
bounds of the "Silicon Valley" society that I live, eat and breath
in.

Well, I don't live in Silicon Valley so I can't comment regarding what is socially acceptable or if the culture differs from the area of the country that I live in (although I am sure it does). However, when you make statements such as, "It's called being duped. I guess you've missed all the business people going to jail because they duped their investors.", in an attempt to equate buying a camera to being ripped off, you DO step outside the "train of logic".

SteveDude · Nov 4, 2002

Thomas Gardner said:
SteveDude said:

Man, you crack me up. All this wasted energy complaining about
something that obviously isn't an issue (Canon "duping" us), when
you could be out taking a great picture. Just cracks me up.

Click to expand...

I'm sorry, you're not finding this entertaining? I find it
entertaing.

Today? I was out scouting a new photographic location. Mavrick's
off Pillar Point, Half Moon Bay, California, USA.

http://surfermag.com/features/oneworld/mavsopinion/

Spent four hours on the mission and purposefully didn't pull the
camera out as this was a scouting mission and I wanted my eyes
unincumbered.

I was given the name of the person in charge of the Air Base for
approval of accessing the base should I clear the approval process.
Stopped at three surf shops to learn more about Mavrick's. Got a
web address; (surfermag.com) Found out about five day forcasts on
surf conditions. Surf's expected to be up (twenty plus feet) on
Friday and Saturday. Got the name and phone number of a person
that shoots the surf at Mavrick's so I can avail myself of his
photographic experience should he care to share with me. So,
unbeknownst to you, I was working on my next set of images.

As to great pictures, this was the result of Saturday's efforts.

http://www.photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=1100282

Is it great? I think it's an excellent example of texture and
light. It'll be up to other's to decide it's greatness.

Thomas Gardner said:

Sure enough, Canon might have changed their price-point, but the
supply and demand (not to mention the next generation of
advancements) will change that soon enough. Right now they are
bringing out a very expensive product on the bleeding edge - I
understand this. Some will choose to be on that edge, and they
will have the best of the best but will have to pay for it. Others
will have to wait a while until it "comes to the masses" at a lower
price point.

Obviously you are just going to have to wait - you're just one of
the "masses". (I can't wait to see your reaction to THIS).

Click to expand...

What, you think that writing the truth is going to upset me? All
of us are part of the masses, it's not a news flash.

Dogged by another dog.

Damn. I was looking forward to your humorous followups. And all I got was a great shot.

Now that's a great post.

(seriously, nice pic from Saturday)

PS - I still think you're way off base with your arguments. But that's what's great about the internet, right? (maybe that will get you. Hey, I'm trying).

Here are a few of my recent D60 shots - http://www.pbase.com/stevegrillo

--
D60, Canon ElanIIe, 28-135IS

Thomas Gardner · Nov 4, 2002

HuffyChicken said:
Well, I don't live in Silicon Valley so I can't comment regarding
what is socially acceptable or if the culture differs from the area
of the country that I live in (although I am sure it does).
However, when you make statements such as, "It's called being
duped. I guess you've missed all the business people going to jail
because they duped their investors.", in an attempt to equate
buying a camera to being ripped off, you DO step outside the "train
of logic".

No, I stepped outside your "train of logic". Why? Because you don't agree with my train of logic.

You're welcome to disagree with my opinon. It's okay. I promise not to dog you.

How many times do corporations have to be nailed for misleading the public before your realize ALL the international corporations lie. If you choose to ignore the facts as reported in the daily news, that is fine with me.

Why are you so worried about my opinion that the pricing of the 1Ds is, in my opinion, a clear cut case of being rip off pricing.

It seems that I'm not allowed my opinion if other's find it disagreeable.

Oh! I'm sorry! I forgot; it's the "One Way" clause

Thomas Gardner · Nov 4, 2002

SteveDude said:
Damn. I was looking forward to your humorous followups. And all
I got was a great shot.

Oops! Sorry

Thanks!

SteveDude said:
Now that's a great post.

Surprise, surprise, I actually go out and ply the art form

Gotta do something to get away from this forum

SteveDude said:
(seriously, nice pic from Saturday)

Thanks!

SteveDude said:
PS - I still think you're way off base with your arguments. But
that's what's great about the internet, right? (maybe that will
get you. Hey, I'm trying).

LOL

If it helps, I have trouble telling when someones pulling my leg online. It's not fair, I can't see their facial reactions

SteveDude said:
Here are a few of my recent D60 shots - http://www.pbase.com/stevegrillo

Nice set of shots. Like your "Ocean City and Sun" shot. Looks like the kinda shot you'd blow up to a 20X30 and hang on a church hallway somewhere

wiscoahu · Nov 4, 2002

Thomas Gardner said:
HuffyChicken said:

Well, I don't live in Silicon Valley so I can't comment regarding
what is socially acceptable or if the culture differs from the area
of the country that I live in (although I am sure it does).
However, when you make statements such as, "It's called being
duped. I guess you've missed all the business people going to jail
because they duped their investors.", in an attempt to equate
buying a camera to being ripped off, you DO step outside the "train
of logic".

Click to expand...

No, I stepped outside your "train of logic". Why? Because you
don't agree with my train of logic.

Hmmm, as far as I can tell, logic is not based on personal interpretation.

Thomas Gardner said:
You're welcome to disagree with my opinon. It's okay. I promise
not to dog you.

And I will not "dog" you for disagreeing with any opionions but I will debate/argue opinions.

Thomas Gardner said:
How many times do corporations have to be nailed for misleading the
public before your realize ALL the international corporations lie.
If you choose to ignore the facts as reported in the daily news,
that is fine with me.

Thomas, for you to simply generalize and state that "ALL the international corporations lie" is simply ridiculous. I do feel that there is definitely corruption in corporate America but to lay down a blanket statement like that only ruins your credibility. Furthermore, since when has the press become infallable? Do you believe everything that the press reports? Bad argument, Thomas. You will need to do more to make a compelling case.

Thomas Gardner said:
Why are you so worried about my opinion that the pricing of the 1Ds
is, in my opinion, a clear cut case of being rip off pricing.

I could care less about your opinion about 1Ds pricing. I just wanted to debate what I feel is a flawed argument.

Thomas Gardner said:
It seems that I'm not allowed my opinion if other's find it
disagreeable.

Sure you are. I don't agree with you and I feel that you are allowed to any opinion you want.

Thomas Gardner said:
Oh! I'm sorry! I forgot; it's the "One Way" clause

I don't follow you on this.

Canon 1Ds price too high? Nope.

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