Mirrorless, Video Convergence and the "the DOF sweet spot" at LL

With shallow Dof out of the equation, what then are the advantages of FF, especially given the predominance of UWA photography
Firsg of all, it's not out of the equation.
it has its place, that just isnt a common use

if the industry has decided that the field separation available from 35mm movie format is acceptable, the role of anything FF is reduced to anything but what is in your mind
And yet, an entire major movie was shot with $20,000 lenses at T/1.3 on S35.
Second, you don't get shallow DOF shooting ultrawide, even on full frame, unless you make the focal plane really small, which you don't in the context of actors moving around the set.
if you arent going to shoot shallow DoF, why do you need FF for UWA at all?
Maybe to get better performance in low light when you can afford the shallow DOF. RED, on which the above mentioned movie was shot, is planning full-frame, 645 and even 6cm x 17cm sensor cameras. So they obviously consider it valuable to go larger and they wouldn't if the didn't have interested customers. IMAX uses a very large film size and they successfully cope with it. People are looking at RED full-frame and 645 as potential replacements for IMAX film cameras.
--
Lee Jay
(see profile for equipment)
 
With shallow Dof out of the equation, what then are the advantages of FF, especially given the predominance of UWA photography
Firsg of all, it's not out of the equation.
it has its place, that just isnt a common use

if the industry has decided that the field separation available from 35mm movie format is acceptable, the role of anything FF is reduced to anything but what is in your mind
And yet, an entire major movie was shot with $20,000 lenses at T/1.3 on S35.
would you call Hurt Locker a major movie? shot on 16mm. BTW you seem surprised at these lens prices, its not uncommon for cine lenses to be in the tens of thousands, mostly theyre rentals.
Second, you don't get shallow DOF shooting ultrawide, even on full frame, unless you make the focal plane really small, which you don't in the context of actors moving around the set.
if you arent going to shoot shallow DoF, why do you need FF for UWA at all?
Maybe to get better performance in low light when you can afford the shallow DOF.
yet you cant run a whole movie like that can you, you would get a few 10 second takes, thats about it. Why did you need FF again
RED, on which the above mentioned movie was shot, is planning full-frame, 645 and even 6cm x 17cm sensor cameras. So they obviously consider it valuable to go larger and they wouldn't if the didn't have interested customers.
RED will do more business than anything in FF for movie and documentary, but its a business where its on the outside trying to get in. FF in the shape of SLRs seeks a platform and lenses. Too early to suggest its a great success, and thats being generous
IMAX uses a very large film size and they successfully cope with it. People are looking at RED full-frame and 645 as potential replacements for IMAX film cameras.
and likewise IMAX has its place, mostly its about its frame rate than it is size, indeed the size of the cameras makes it more prohibitive. And its been out a long time now, and hasnt made a major impact on the industry, an admirable one, but not a major one. Its pretty much boutique stuff and plays for the mostpart to an alternate market where it can be afforded

part of the reason is cost, even in 35mm movie there are in excess of 10,000 frames in a short movie feature, IMAX is a staggering 20,000+ ft of 70mm post edit, even if you could find someone who could actually watch it.

not realistic expectations or a good working example. Much much more of the market is small and portable, directors with skill instead of razzle dazzle

--
Riley

any similarity to persons living or dead is coincidental and unintended
 
yet you cant run a whole movie like that can you, you would get a few 10 second takes, thats about it.
We just got a whole movie like that.
the market is small and portable, directors with skill instead of razzle dazzle
You have to be kidding. You said this in a year when the biggest grossing movie was largely a 3D IMAX release with tons of high-quality animation?

--
Lee Jay
(see profile for equipment)
 
if you arent going to shoot shallow DoF, why do you need FF for UWA at all?
Occasionally people say that the advantages of FF are limited to shallow DOF, but they seem to forget that FF resolves significantly more for a given DOF (with the singular exception of the the corners in UWA).

Natually, I'm talking about still photography -- I do not know if the cine lenses resolve more on the smaller formats.

The question, of course, is if the higher resolution is of benefit for video. I've made the point that for HDTV (1920 x 1080) that it's overkill. However, John Brawley has said that 1920 x 1080 represents a lower limit to video shooting.

Lee Jay has also made the point that, at wider focal lengths, the DOF gets pretty deep fairly quickly, so the significantly wider apertures that FF allows for UWA over smaller formats will not necessarily cause a significant problem in terms of DOF, but give a significant advantage in terms of noise for low light shooting.

Canon's UWA lenses, however, have poor corner performance at wide apertures. Nikon's 14-24 / 2.8, however, has rather good corner performance wide open, and can be used on Canon DSLRs with an adapter.

Still, f/2.8 is a long way from the t/1.3 of the cine lenses, which completely negates the FF advantage (assuming they resolve at least as well on the smaller format). In this case, ironically, the big plus of FF would be substantially lower price.

So, when discussing digital video, I think it's important to clearly state the resolution being shot, the lenses being used, and the price of the system , in any discussion about digital video. Of course, there are other considerations, but these three are certainly rather important, methinks.
 
bobn2 wrote:
I'm not arguing that DOF isn't a useful tool
That's what you were arguing.
But FF DSLRs give filmmakers access to a more shallow DOF that was previously very much unobtainable.
A more powerful tool.
So now every filmmaker with a 5D is shooting everything at T1.2 just because very shallow DOF can look very beautiful for certain shots. Mostly though its wallpapering over bad storytelling and the other known sins of dslr filmmaking.
Has not a film with bad plotline or other known sins ever been shot with deep DOF. Are those points really relevant to the DOF discussion at all?

--
Bob
 
i only have time for this one b/se im shooting in an hour
if you arent going to shoot shallow DoF, why do you need FF for UWA at all?
Occasionally people say that the advantages of FF are limited to shallow DOF, but they seem to forget that FF resolves significantly more for a given DOF (with the singular exception of the the corners in UWA).
yes again its that even frame performance
Natually, I'm talking about still photography -- I do not know if the cine lenses resolve more on the smaller formats.
The question, of course, is if the higher resolution is of benefit for video. I've made the point that for HDTV (1920 x 1080) that it's overkill. However, John Brawley has said that 1920 x 1080 represents a lower limit to video shooting.

Lee Jay has also made the point that, at wider focal lengths, the DOF gets pretty deep fairly quickly, so the significantly wider apertures that FF allows for UWA over smaller formats will not necessarily cause a significant problem in terms of DOF, but give a significant advantage in terms of noise for low light shooting.
noise is less of an issue anyway

but given an individual lens choice, where the system has been 'gamed' to cover light loss, just how much improvement in stops is one to expect

my inference is, 'less than you think' in the places where you thought you were going to gain. And that converges with another discussion elsewhere

UWA lens performance more problematical considering more even across the frame resolution, and noise gains at wider f stops less than is implied due to gaming the system b/se of light loss. Where then is the benefit?
Canon's UWA lenses, however, have poor corner performance at wide apertures. Nikon's 14-24 / 2.8, however, has rather good corner performance wide open, and can be used on Canon DSLRs with an adapter.
yes it does, but i dont know that it doesnt give that fishbowl look. My feeling is that lenses for stills are not really up to scoot and shoot at wide apertures. We are talking about differences that are magnified many times over for some audience viewing
Still, f/2.8 is a long way from the t/1.3 of the cine lenses, which completely negates the FF advantage (assuming they resolve at least as well on the smaller format). In this case, ironically, the big plus of FF would be substantially lower price.

So, when discussing digital video, I think it's important to clearly state the resolution being shot, the lenses being used, and the price of the system , in any discussion about digital video. Of course, there are other considerations, but these three are certainly rather important, methinks.
yes its confusing that there are so many market variations in platforms and production needs, which makes me think they will move from the generally accepted format of 35mm movie, to the platform they can find closest to it, and glue together whatever else they need from more specialised equipment

the remaining questions are, what manufacturers already have their feet in the door in these environments

--
Riley

any similarity to persons living or dead is coincidental and unintended
 
if you arent going to shoot shallow DoF, why do you need FF for UWA at all?
Occasionally people say that the advantages of FF are limited to shallow DOF, but they seem to forget that FF resolves significantly more for a given DOF (with the singular exception of the the corners in UWA).
Guess you meant to say "for a given f-stop", because (like you're well aware), DoF and diffraction (potential resolution) goes hand in hand, and lenses optimized for smaller formats can resolve more lp/mm (G10 and 7D have app. the same resolution (and noise..) for a given DoF).
Natually, I'm talking about still photography -- I do not know if the cine lenses resolve more on the smaller formats.

The question, of course, is if the higher resolution is of benefit for video. I've made the point that for HDTV (1920 x 1080) that it's overkill. However, John Brawley has said that 1920 x 1080 represents a lower limit to video shooting.
Just saw on 'my' Danish TV forum that 'Ultra HD' TVs (3840x2160) are coming, and quess that 10-15 years from now we can get a relatively inexpensive, ultra-thin, 10mp+, 40" OLED diplay to hang on the wall, instead of those old-fashioned prints we're using now. ;-)
Lee Jay has also made the point that, at wider focal lengths, the DOF gets pretty deep fairly quickly, so the significantly wider apertures that FF allows for UWA over smaller formats will not necessarily cause a significant problem in terms of DOF, but give a significant advantage in terms of noise for low light shooting.

Canon's UWA lenses, however, have poor corner performance at wide apertures. Nikon's 14-24 / 2.8, however, has rather good corner performance wide open, and can be used on Canon DSLRs with an adapter.

Still, f/2.8 is a long way from the t/1.3 of the cine lenses, which completely negates the FF advantage (assuming they resolve at least as well on the smaller format). In this case, ironically, the big plus of FF would be substantially lower price.

So, when discussing digital video, I think it's important to clearly state the resolution being shot, the lenses being used, and the price of the system , in any discussion about digital video. Of course, there are other considerations, but these three are certainly rather important, methinks.
 
John thanks for that. I started photography at about the time or just after that Barry Lyndon was made and your insight around a scene that has stuck in my mind since back in the day is enlightening. I remember buying an OM1 with a Zuiko 50mm F1.2 because I wanted to try for the same selected focus look. I remember being so impressed with the ability to focus so accurately with the extra light that reached the huge OM focusing screens.
 
John thanks for that. I started photography at about the time or just after that Barry Lyndon was made and your insight around a scene that has stuck in my mind since back in the day is enlightening. I remember buying an OM1 with a Zuiko 50mm F1.2 because I wanted to try for the same selected focus look. I remember being so impressed with the ability to focus so accurately with the extra light that reached the huge OM focusing screens.
At least one person influenced by the 'selected focus look'!
--
Bob
 
May I ask why not the new AG-AF100? Besides the size advantages of DSLRs or mirrorless "bridge" cameras I suppose they must be a real pain to use for video purposes because they lack dedicated features that "true" video cameras would have. I'm already griping - for stills use - that the Gxx bodies lack options such as vertical grip, built in wireless flash control, PC sync port or even hand-friendly size etc., which makes them "impractical" as compared to more "serious" cameras, even when the image quality is perfectly fine. Basically they force you to use workarounds.
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I'll be using the GH2 mainly because of it's tiny size and it's superior resolution compared to the 5D / 7D. I'll be using these ONLY for video and with mostly SHG lenses. The AF 100/102 body is getting quite big for what I need the cameras to do. Our main unit camera package was 5 x RED bodies across 2 units. We also had 2 x 5D's on main unit (and sometimes also on second unit) for trick shots, where the RED is just to big to go. Most of our travelling shots in cars are shot with 5D's. We did start to use it as a third camera amongst RED shot scenes, but even on air you can really tell when a 5D shot was intercut with RED.

It's noticeably softer. They tend to work best when you shoot entire scenes on them so you don't notice the resolution and DR differences.
And yet, an entire major movie was shot with $20,000 lenses at T/1.3 on S35.
You need to add another zero to that. Each Zeiss Masterprime lens is about 20-25K. A full set of primes is about 200-250k. I seem to remember that there was a whole sequence in the middle that was shot using tilt-shift lenses, so clearly the entire film wasn't shot this way either.

As I've mentioned previously, most cine primes are T1.3. or less commonly T2. The main reason a 50 million dollar studio film is shooting on masterprimes is to get as much resolution on the screen as possible. They also chose to shoot portions of the film wide open, but as I say, all the primes available to this scale of production can generally do this.

This is also considered to be a cheaper studio film. You notice that there are no "A" list stars to artificially inflate the budget.
So now every filmmaker with a 5D is shooting everything at T1.2 just because very shallow DOF can look very beautiful for certain shots. Mostly though its wallpapering over bad storytelling and the other known sins of dslr filmmaking.
Has not a film with bad plotline or other known sins ever been shot with deep DOF. Are those points really relevant to the DOF discussion at all?
I think they are. The OP was linking a post where it was asserted that ultra-low DOF is largely impractical to shoot motion with. I am agreeing with that notion. But what I am seeing is a lot of filmmakers shooting ultra-low DOF just because they can and they think that it makes the story telling in their films better. And whilst this can and often does look beautiful, it's done for reasons of fashion rather than for good storytelling reasons. Right now, I describe it as a fad, because DSLR's are being used extensively to shoot a lot of short films and music clips. Just like tilt-shift lenses were big in the late 90's. The next hot thing now is to use the oldest obscure M42 mount lens you can find.....

As well as being a practitioner, I see a whole lot of contemporary filmmaking. I've been a juror for Australia's two biggest film awards, the AFI awards and the IF awards as well as a selection panelist for MIFF, one of the oldest film festivals in the world.

Perhaps we need to make a distinction about low and ultra low DOF. Perhaps we need to delineate amateur, fringe, indy and professional filmmaking. They all have different requirements. FF video give access to a look that wouldn't be otherwise possible and I'm not knocking that at all. What I am saying is that give me a compelling story reason to choose ultra low DOF. Don't just do it cause it looks good. That's not enough reason.
I'm not arguing that DOF isn't a useful tool
That's what you were arguing.
If that's what you take from my comments then I have been misunderstood. I would never argue that isn't a useful tool.

DOF and the use of selective focus is one of the most powerful and discrete ways a cinematographer can direct the gaze of the audience and I use it routinely in my work every time I'm on set.

jb
--
John Brawley
Cinematographer
Sydney Australia
http://www.johnbrawley.com
 
The OP was linking a post where it was asserted that ultra-low DOF is largely impractical to shoot motion with. I am agreeing with that notion. But what I am seeing is a lot of filmmakers shooting ultra-low DOF just because they can and they think that it makes the story telling in their films better. And whilst this can and often does look beautiful, it's done for reasons of fashion rather than for good storytelling reasons. Right now, I describe it as a fad, because DSLR's are being used extensively to shoot a lot of short films and music clips. Just like tilt-shift lenses were big in the late 90's. The next hot thing now is to use the oldest obscure M42 mount lens you can find.....
Had you said that from the beginning, rather than simply saying:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1022&message=37005846

Shallow dof is a fad. You guys are all buying into it. FF has nothing to do with motion picture imaging and it won't ever do.

I think you would have found far less resistance to your point of view.
As well as being a practitioner, I see a whole lot of contemporary filmmaking. I've been a juror for Australia's two biggest film awards, the AFI awards and the IF awards as well as a selection panelist for MIFF, one of the oldest film festivals in the world.
Impressive!
Perhaps we need to make a distinction about low and ultra low DOF. Perhaps we need to delineate amateur, fringe, indy and professional filmmaking. They all have different requirements. FF video give access to a look that wouldn't be otherwise possible and I'm not knocking that at all. What I am saying is that give me a compelling story reason to choose ultra low DOF. Don't just do it cause it looks good. That's not enough reason.
I don't disagree at all. Even though the bulk of my photography is with ultra shallow DOFs, I most certainly recognize that shallow DOF photography is a niche.
I'm not arguing that DOF isn't a useful tool
That's what you were arguing.
If that's what you take from my comments then I have been misunderstood. I would never argue that isn't a useful tool.
I hope you can see why he, and others, took the comments the way they did. Your clarification is much appreciated!
DOF and the use of selective focus is one of the most powerful and discrete ways a cinematographer can direct the gaze of the audience and I use it routinely in my work every time I'm on set.
What you've done now is to make it difficult for people to argue against you. ;)
 
if you arent going to shoot shallow DoF, why do you need FF for UWA at all?
Occasionally people say that the advantages of FF are limited to shallow DOF, but they seem to forget that FF resolves significantly more for a given DOF (with the singular exception of the the corners in UWA).
Guess you meant to say "for a given f-stop", because (like you're well aware), DoF and diffraction (potential resolution) goes hand in hand, and lenses optimized for smaller formats can resolve more lp/mm (G10 and 7D have app. the same resolution (and noise..) for a given DoF).
Dammit, Steen! Stop pointing out what I meant to say! ;) Yes, you are quite correct, I did mean to say "for a given f-ratio" as opposed to "for a given DOF". However, that lenses for smaller formats resolve higher in terms of lp/mm (on the sensor) does not give them an advantage over larger formats unless they resolve higher in terms of lp/ph (on the final photo).
Natually, I'm talking about still photography -- I do not know if the cine lenses resolve more on the smaller formats.

The question, of course, is if the higher resolution is of benefit for video. I've made the point that for HDTV (1920 x 1080) that it's overkill. However, John Brawley has said that 1920 x 1080 represents a lower limit to video shooting.
Just saw on 'my' Danish TV forum that 'Ultra HD' TVs (3840x2160) are coming, and quess that 10-15 years from now we can get a relatively inexpensive, ultra-thin, 10mp+, 40" OLED diplay to hang on the wall, instead of those old-fashioned prints we're using now. ;-)
Whoa! I've not heard of that! Great news! And, yes, I do look forward to the day when I'm hanging 40" 10 MP+ displays on the wall rather than prints. However, when discussing this with one of my clients, she said, "There's just something special about a print". Time will tell.
 
if you arent going to shoot shallow DoF, why do you need FF for UWA at all?
Occasionally people say that the advantages of FF are limited to shallow DOF, but they seem to forget that FF resolves significantly more for a given DOF (with the singular exception of the the corners in UWA).
Guess you meant to say "for a given f-stop", because (like you're well aware), DoF and diffraction (potential resolution) goes hand in hand, and lenses optimized for smaller formats can resolve more lp/mm (G10 and 7D have app. the same resolution (and noise..) for a given DoF).
Dammit, Steen! Stop pointing out what I meant to say! ;)
Please don't deny me that. You know how much I enjoy to correct your little mistakes. ;-)
Yes, you are quite correct, I did mean to say "for a given f-ratio" as opposed to "for a given DOF". However, that lenses for smaller formats resolve higher in terms of lp/mm (on the sensor) does not give them an advantage over larger formats unless they resolve higher in terms of lp/ph (on the final photo).
Natually, I'm talking about still photography -- I do not know if the cine lenses resolve more on the smaller formats.

The question, of course, is if the higher resolution is of benefit for video. I've made the point that for HDTV (1920 x 1080) that it's overkill. However, John Brawley has said that 1920 x 1080 represents a lower limit to video shooting.
Just saw on 'my' Danish TV forum that 'Ultra HD' TVs (3840x2160) are coming, and quess that 10-15 years from now we can get a relatively inexpensive, ultra-thin, 10mp+, 40" OLED diplay to hang on the wall, instead of those old-fashioned prints we're using now. ;-)
Whoa! I've not heard of that! Great news! And, yes, I do look forward to the day when I'm hanging 40" 10 MP+ displays on the wall rather than prints. However, when discussing this with one of my clients, she said, "There's just something special about a print". Time will tell.
Also think that there's something special about a print, but always a nice thing to have more options. The Danish TV/monitor site actually has an English version. Not much activity on the forum there, but many of the tests/articles are translated, also the article that mentioned 'Ultra HD' :

http://www.flatpanelshd.com/news.php?subaction=showfull&id=1290699072
 
Dammit, Steen! Stop pointing out what I meant to say! ;)
Please don't deny me that. You know how much I enjoy to correct your little mistakes. ;-)
That's dangerously close to something my wife always says to me, but let's not got there, shall we? ;)
Whoa! I've not heard of that! Great news! And, yes, I do look forward to the day when I'm hanging 40" 10 MP+ displays on the wall rather than prints. However, when discussing this with one of my clients, she said, "There's just something special about a print". Time will tell.
Also think that there's something special about a print, but always a nice thing to have more options. The Danish TV/monitor site actually has an English version. Not much activity on the forum there, but many of the tests/articles are translated, also the article that mentioned 'Ultra HD' :

http://www.flatpanelshd.com/news.php?subaction=showfull&id=1290699072
You know, when that day comes, I wonder what effect it will have on photography in terms of composition. For example, I usually frame in landscape orientation, but take a decent number of shots in portrait orientation.

When I'm displaying my pics exclusively on a huge HDTV, will I stop taking pics in portrait orientation, or will I simply get a much bigger HDTV and display three portrait oriented shots side-by-side?

The aspect ratio of the HDTVs is much to long to rotate and display vertically for most pics, I would think.
 
I'll be using the GH2 mainly because of it's tiny size and it's superior resolution compared to the 5D / 7D. [...] even on air you can really tell when a 5D shot was intercut with RED.

It's noticeably softer. They tend to work best when you shoot entire scenes on them so you don't notice the resolution and DR differences.
Interesting - though I shouldn't be surprised, I just compared a D700 to my G1 and the G1 more than held up in resolution.

One thought re: your wish for continuous apertures on stills lenses used for video (as you mentioned in the other thread). On lenses with manual aperture rings (e.g. PL25/1.4) you could just hack the lens. The stepping of the aperture is usually done by a small steel ball locking into notches on a steel ring inside the lens. In early teenage disassembly experiments (ahem) with old SLR lenses I found out if you lose remove that steel ball you get a smooth continuous aperture action. Don't know what that does to the metering electronics of the camera but for video use you'll likely shoot full manual anyway no? It wouldn't work for aperture-by-wire lenses though.
--
Markus

http://mbka.deviantart.com
 

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