DxOMark on wide apertures.

... real world photographic tests are more interesting than studio tests at ƒ 5.6 with a set sensitivity, letting the camera choose its own shutter speed. Different formats get different effects from different lens designs.

Seeing as camera manufacturers are cheating with the sensitivity boosts at lower ƒ-numbers, maybe it's time to check the shutter speeds as well.
 
... real world photographic tests are more interesting than studio tests at ƒ 5.6 with a set sensitivity, letting the camera choose its own shutter speed. Different formats get different effects from different lens designs.

Seeing as camera manufacturers are cheating with the sensitivity boosts at lower ƒ-numbers, maybe it's time to check the shutter speeds as well.
The issue affects all formats, and is a function of the discrepancy between the Numerical Aperture:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numerical_aperture

and the entrance pupil diameter in terms of light gathering ability, which I worked out here:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1018&message=36808367

Other issues add to this unavoidable fact of life, such as the microlens efficiency, stack height, etc.

As for sensor sensitivity being boosted, the sensor sensitivity is fixed, and is not a function of ISO. Raising the ISO simply applies an analog gain to the signal, which, in some cameras, is simply more efficient than a digital push:

http://www.josephjamesphotography.com/equivalence/#iso

In other words, an analog gain may be being applied to negate the light loss, but this will simply result in more noise than would otherwise be expected.

So, what is going on is that opening up from f/2 to f/1.4, for example, will not result in a full extra stop of light gathering ability. But this effect also exists from f/2.8 to f/4, albeit not as strongly. So it's not like there's no benefit to using f/1.4 over f/2, or f/2 over f/2.8, etc.

However, this is true for all systems . In terms of Equivalence, it works in favor of the larger sensor systems at large apertures, since the effect is far less, for example, from f/4 to f/2.8 on FF than it is from f/2 to f/1.4 on 4/3.
 
I would venture to say that the article delves into a realm that cinematographers have always dealt with. F stop vs T stop. The folks making movies never consider the f stop of a lens in the way still photographers do. Their metering is based on the actual light reaching the film, not the relative diameter of the lens to focal length.

Still, this article does put the absolutist attitude toward F stop and sensor size in better perspective. And perhaps explains why Olympus, in adopting the 4/3 has been in no hurry to produce the fast primes some people declare are needed to be considered a "pro system". That is, the f2 on a lens like the 14-35 really does transmit more light onto the 4/3 sensor, than a comparable aperture lens on aps-c or 35mm FF equivalent.

But then, this has always been a point of issue among pros and truly experienced enthusiasts. Is an f1.4 lens worth paying extra for if the lens isn't really usable below f2 or even f2.8.

Kirk Tuck has a blog entry on this subject, btw.

http://visualsciencelab.blogspot.com/2010/11/35mm-lens-and-why-no-one-should-care-if.html
--

Some people operate cameras. Others use them to create images. There is a difference.

http://ikkens.zenfolio.com/

http://sarob-w.deviantart.com/
 
and what a tough break for the sisters who claimed that telecentric lenses were just marketing fluff
Telecentricity makes no difference to this effect, at least for sensors with offset microlenses (which is now, I suspect, all of them). As I thought would happen, with DxO explaining it in terms of oblique incidence of light rays, those with a simplified grasp of optics get confused. The angle that matters is the angle of the light cone projected from the exit pupil of the lens. That angle depends on the f-number of the lens and is the same whether or not it's telecentric.

--
Bob
 
That is, the f2 on a lens like the 14-35 really does transmit more light onto the 4/3 sensor, than a comparable aperture lens on aps-c or 35mm FF equivalent.
That's wrong for two reasons. Firstly, a comparable aperture lens to f/2 on FT is f/2.7 on (1.5x) APS-C and f/4 on FF in terms of light projected onto the sensor. Both of those will be further clear of this effect than will an f/2 lens. Secondly, the effect depends on the f-number of the microlens, which is determined by the size of the pixel and the depth of the wiring layers on the chip. With smaller pixels, the microlens f-number will be higher and this effect more pronounced. Larger formats with larger pixels suffer less. The effect can be engineered out with things such as 2-element microlenses or light pipes in the pixel, but I think many DSLR sensor manufacturers do not bother yet.
--
Bob
 
I would venture to say that the article delves into a realm that cinematographers have always dealt with. F stop vs T stop. The folks making movies never consider the f stop of a lens in the way still photographers do. Their metering is based on the actual light reaching the film, not the relative diameter of the lens to focal length.
With video, consistent apparent exposure is far more important than with still photography, as even small differences from frame to frame will result in a very distracting flicker.
Still, this article does put the absolutist attitude toward F stop and sensor size in better perspective. And perhaps explains why Olympus, in adopting the 4/3 has been in no hurry to produce the fast primes some people declare are needed to be considered a "pro system". That is, the f2 on a lens like the 14-35 really does transmit more light onto the 4/3 sensor, than a comparable aperture lens on aps-c or 35mm FF equivalent.
Exactly backwards. In fact, I already addressed that point in another post in this thread:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1022&message=37019704

So, what is going on is that opening up from f/2 to f/1.4, for example, will not result in a full extra stop of light gathering ability. But this effect also exists from f/2.8 to f/4, albeit not as strongly. So it's not like there's no benefit to using f/1.4 over f/2, or f/2 over f/2.8, etc.

However, this is true for all systems. In terms of Equivalence, it works in favor of the larger sensor systems at large apertures, since the effect is far less, for example, from f/4 to f/2.8 on FF than it is from f/2 to f/1.4 on 4/3.

But then, this has always been a point of issue among pros and truly experienced enthusiasts. Is an f1.4 lens worth paying extra for if the lens isn't really usable below f2 or even f2.8.
Depends on how you define "usable". Even f/1.2 works just fine for me:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1029&message=34367361

But, then again, even f/8 appears to be a challenge for some people.
 
I would venture to say that the article delves into a realm that cinematographers have always dealt with. F stop vs T stop. The folks making movies never consider the f stop of a lens in the way still photographers do. Their metering is based on the actual light reaching the film, not the relative diameter of the lens to focal length.
Correct. This is because light transmission (T stop) may vary a fair amount from lens to lens set at the same F stop. It is relatively difficult to adjust the brightness from shot film, and so you could end up with light / dark / light transitions in a scene that would make it obvious that you were using two different lenses unless you know that each can be set to ensure the same amount of light is getting to the film -- hence the T stop.
Still, this article does put the absolutist attitude toward F stop and sensor size in better perspective. And perhaps explains why Olympus, in adopting the 4/3 has been in no hurry to produce the fast primes some people declare are needed to be considered a "pro system". That is, the f2 on a lens like the 14-35 really does transmit more light onto the 4/3 sensor, than a comparable aperture lens on aps-c or 35mm FF equivalent.
I believe it has more to do with the relatively large flange distance making lenses faster than f/2 a "bad bargain" on 4/3 (but not micro 4/3).
But then, this has always been a point of issue among pros and truly experienced enthusiasts. Is an f1.4 lens worth paying extra for if the lens isn't really usable below f2 or even f2.8.
From my experience, "ultra-fast" lenses were always considered specialist lenses with limited practicality for the fast end. You paid a lot more to get the possibility of shooting where it would otherwise be impractical due to lack of available light, and/or you could achieve very narrow DOF effects at medium distances. Fast medium telephotos are still used for portraiture because this is a specific application where the disadvantages (fuzzy edges, high cost) aren't an issue and the narrow DOF makes sense.
Interesting read.

I find that procrastination about selling cameras / lenses helps to build up my collection -- "I should I sell this" at value x becomes "Should I sell this?" at value y , then finally "This isn't worth selling, so I'll just keep it" at value z . It might take a couple of years, but that's no problem for a dedicated fence-sitter.

:)
 
Theoretically people can fret over what is "correct" and how all the numbers stack up.

Experientially: in over 30 years of varied involvement in the photo industry, I've found that 97% of the world doesn't care about this sort of thing when it comes to buying and using cameras or viewing photos.

Now I do agree with GB that "usable aperture" is a relative concept. Most people are less likely to recognize loss of resolution between f2 and f1.2 than they will the camera shake blur from using a slower shutter speed.

On the other hand, I can't help but laugh at how often I see people pixel peeping about the sharpness of hand held shots, citing the sensor, when if they actually knew how to get the best results they'd be using a tripod. ;-)

--

Some people operate cameras. Others use them to create images. There is a difference.

http://ikkens.zenfolio.com/

http://sarob-w.deviantart.com/
 
Just out of curiosity, does the light that makes it to the sensor or size of the aperture determine DOF? I assume its the size of aperture that really determines this but I'm not positive.

I think it is really a difference in semantics. If it is as I assume and aperture size determines DOF than f-stops should really only be used to determine DOF calculations (and therefore in composing images to have the DOF you want) while T-stops should be used to determine how much light is hitting the sensor (and therefore be used to adjust the ISO and shutter speed). Its almost too bad lens manufacterers don't give us both of these pieces of information.

If my assumption is wrong and DOF is determined by how much light reaches the sensor, than f-stops seem to be useless and I would say that lens manufacters should really be focused on using T-stops rather than a rating which varies from lens to lens (f-stops).
--
Chris
 
That is interesting that more wells would increase the problem. Makes sense since a bigger pixel would have more light hitting somewhere.

I still like my 2 f1.2 lenses on the Canon. Often the subject is near the center and the edges even after 'boosted' are part of the bokeh so not that much of an issue.

The M9 has the kodak sensor that specifically was designed to lesson this effect with an offset microlens structure as you move out to the edges. I wonder if other manufacturers can follow suit or if this is covered under patents.

Film did not have the problem with off angle light.
--
John Mason - Lafayette, IN

http://www.fototime.com/inv/407B931C53A9D9D
 
That is interesting that more wells would increase the problem. Makes sense since a bigger pixel would have more light hitting somewhere.

I still like my 2 f1.2 lenses on the Canon. Often the subject is near the center and the edges even after 'boosted' are part of the bokeh so not that much of an issue.
hmmm


The M9 has the kodak sensor that specifically was designed to lesson this effect with an offset microlens structure as you move out to the edges. I wonder if other manufacturers can follow suit or if this is covered under patents.
undoubtedly patented, but likely easily licensed

but there are limits to which the offset can be effective, for a RF this isnt an issue as it is mostly disposed to WA photography. Telephoto lenses OTOH are by their nature more telecentric and have a straighter shot at the sensor
Film did not have the problem with off angle light.
thats true
--
Riley

any similarity to persons living or dead is coincidental and unintended
 
I would venture to say that the article delves into a realm that cinematographers have always dealt with. F stop vs T stop. The folks making movies never consider the f stop of a lens in the way still photographers do. Their metering is based on the actual light reaching the film, not the relative diameter of the lens to focal length.
With video, consistent apparent exposure is far more important than with still photography, as even small differences from frame to frame will result in a very distracting flicker.
Still, this article does put the absolutist attitude toward F stop and sensor size in better perspective. And perhaps explains why Olympus, in adopting the 4/3 has been in no hurry to produce the fast primes some people declare are needed to be considered a "pro system". That is, the f2 on a lens like the 14-35 really does transmit more light onto the 4/3 sensor, than a comparable aperture lens on aps-c or 35mm FF equivalent.
Exactly backwards. In fact, I already addressed that point in another post in this thread:
unfortunately you are quoting yourself
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1022&message=37019704

So, what is going on is that opening up from f/2 to f/1.4, for example, will not result in a full extra stop of light gathering ability. But this effect also exists from f/2.8 to f/4, albeit not as strongly. So it's not like there's no benefit to using f/1.4 over f/2, or f/2 over f/2.8, etc.

However, this is true for all systems. In terms of Equivalence, it works in favor of the larger sensor systems at large apertures, since the effect is far less, for example, from f/4 to f/2.8 on FF than it is from f/2 to f/1.4 on 4/3.

But then, this has always been a point of issue among pros and truly experienced enthusiasts. Is an f1.4 lens worth paying extra for if the lens isn't really usable below f2 or even f2.8.
Depends on how you define "usable". Even f/1.2 works just fine for me:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1029&message=34367361

But, then again, even f/8 appears to be a challenge for some people.
--
Riley

any similarity to persons living or dead is coincidental and unintended
 
and what a tough break for the sisters who claimed that telecentric lenses were just marketing fluff
Telecentricity makes no difference to this effect, at least for sensors with offset microlenses (which is now, I suspect, all of them).
microlenses were the fix for non telecentric lens suites
now it seems, even that isnt working for you
As I thought would happen,
thats too funny for words
with DxO explaining it in terms of oblique incidence of light rays, those with a simplified grasp of optics get confused. The angle that matters is the angle of the light cone projected from the exit pupil of the lens. That angle depends on the f-number of the lens and is the same whether or not it's telecentric.
which only highlights what i jsut said
microlenses were the fix for non telecentric lens suites
now it seems, even that isnt working for you

--
Riley

any similarity to persons living or dead is coincidental and unintended
 
..

But then, this has always been a point of issue among pros and truly experienced enthusiasts. Is an f1.4 lens worth paying extra for if the lens isn't really usable below f2 or even f2.8.
Depends on how you define "usable". Even f/1.2 works just fine for me:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1029&message=34367361

But, then again, even f/8 appears to be a challenge for some people.
Well, it is not usable for Charles. Or maybe it is Kirk who told him that.

--
- sergey
 
all data captured in the shot has been processed at some point, we have no idea what really is happening and less chance to actually change what is happening, T stops and F stops are different thing so will produce different results, sticking a polarizer filter on 1.4 lens will create yet another result, this just good ammo for combatants to have a knock at each rather than it being anything at all :)
--
Mandolin, haha, nope sorry! That, my friend, is a Banjo :)?
 
That is interesting that more wells would increase the problem. Makes sense since a bigger pixel would have more light hitting somewhere.

I still like my 2 f1.2 lenses on the Canon. Often the subject is near the center and the edges even after 'boosted' are part of the bokeh so not that much of an issue.

The M9 has the kodak sensor that specifically was designed to lesson this effect with an offset microlens structure as you move out to the edges. I wonder if other manufacturers can follow suit or if this is covered under patents.

Film did not have the problem with off angle light.
John, you have fallen into the misunderstanding if feared that people would when I saw the wording of the DxO article. I posted about it here:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1022&message=37014645

This effect is only peripherally linked with corner shading and the well known issue of 'angle of incidence'. As I said in the post, a clearer way to understand it is in terms of the f-number of the microlenses, which have to be smaller than the f-number of the taking lens.
--
Bob
 
But then, this has always been a point of issue among pros and truly experienced enthusiasts. Is an f1.4 lens worth paying extra for if the lens isn't really usable below f2 or even f2.8.
Well, that depends on which lens, focal length and subject distance we are talking about. The Nikon 50/1.4G is definitely usable at f/1.4, some people say the Sigma is even better, but the one I tested had too much CA at f/1.4, so it was useless. The Samyang 85/1.4, just like the Nikon 84/1.4 is very much usable at f/1.4 as well. Now, I am pretty sure that is the case with Canon as well. But what is usable and what is not is very much situation dependent as well. The narrow DOF you get at that wide aperture might look nice in some images, but horrible in others. If it is worth paying the extra for or not, is very on the other hand very personal.
 
Telecentricity makes no difference to this effect, at least for sensors with offset microlenses (which is now, I suspect, all of them).
But if for example the 5D2 had offset microlenses, wouldn't that create vignetting if shooting with e.g. a 400mm lens? Won't offset microlenses always be a compromise that helps in some situations (with WA lenses, like mostly used on M9) and makes things worse in others?
 
Might be true from a technical point of view. For a creative point of view a fast lens makes a lot of sense since you can get shallow DOF.
 
Just out of curiosity, does the light that makes it to the sensor or size of the aperture determine DOF? I assume its the size of aperture that really determines this but I'm not positive.
You are right. Think, if you put an ND filter on the lens, it doesn't affect DOF. Here, we're talking about the lens elements each acting as a bit of a ND filter.
I think it is really a difference in semantics. If it is as I assume and aperture size determines DOF than f-stops should really only be used to determine DOF calculations (and therefore in composing images to have the DOF you want) while T-stops should be used to determine how much light is hitting the sensor (and therefore be used to adjust the ISO and shutter speed). Its almost too bad lens manufacterers don't give us both of these pieces of information.
That's true, but my guess is that even Joe isn't obsessive enough about DOF to do calculations where the difference between T and F is critical.
If my assumption is wrong and DOF is determined by how much light reaches the sensor, than f-stops seem to be useless and I would say that lens manufacters should really be focused on using T-stops rather than a rating which varies from lens to lens (f-stops).
Your assumption was right.
--
Bob
 

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