dpreview is hiring ...

Well, there is a great wealth of information here, that otherwise would have to be paid for. Take Joseph Wisniewski's posts for example.
Even if the informations Joseph share are incredible, and even if he writes in a nice manner, that posts (like all others from Eric Fossum or John Sheehy) can't be considered "professional writing", they are just post. That means short writings about a topic, not articles that go deep into a subject.
 
Well, there is a great wealth of information here, that otherwise would have to be paid for. Take Joseph Wisniewski's posts for example.
Even if the informations Joseph share are incredible, and even if he writes in a nice manner, that posts (like all others from Eric Fossum or John Sheehy) can't be considered "professional writing", they are just post. That means short writings about a topic, not articles that go deep into a subject.
Surely you do not mean to say that short writings full of merit are less worthy than "articles" of "professional writers" simply because they are not designated as "articles".

One huge advantage of posts like Joseph's is the simple fact that they are not paid for, i.e. ordered. You realize that there is a commercial interest behind just about anything in print in photo magazines? Do you not think that many articles are tailored to fit the ordering party.

Internet and forums have made it possible to offer and find unbiased opinions, it is a matter of sifting through them, but they are still there.
Rgds
 
Surely you do not mean to say that short writings full of merit are less worthy than "articles" of "professional writers" simply because they are not designated as "articles".
Sure! As I am sure that if asked to them to keep a topic on DPReview they would ask to get money in change. One thing is to answer to people questions, another is to write in a professional way articles on a specific topic, which means you have to think at what you should write, document, create images or graphics and write much more and deep than for a typical forum answer. That also means you spend much hours of your time, it's not a blog post they are searching for...

Moreover, professional doesen't mean you write for a living (it's full of non-journalists who writes on newspapers), just that you create something "complete" under many aspects. A forum post rarely can be considered as professional writing (but sometimes, some post, can be).
One huge advantage of posts like Joseph's is the simple fact that they are not paid for, i.e. ordered. You realize that there is a commercial interest behind just about anything in print in photo magazines? Do you not think that many articles are tailored to fit the ordering party.
Oh, that's a common mistake... like here on DPReview, you readers always think that we writers have commercial interests. I don't deal with photography and surely I know that even in my field some write with commercial interest in mind, but you should be able to discern who behave like this and who write only based on his mind.
Internet and forums have made it possible to offer and find unbiased opinions, it is a matter of sifting through them, but they are still there.
Sure, nobody deny. Still I think people should not work for free. One thing is to keep your blog or help people with your same hobby on a forum, another is to write for someone who earn money from your work just for free. It's my opinion, sorry if is different from yours.

Regards
 
I forgot to mention that usually people on forums are among the most biased i ever knew. Not the one who we are talking about, but many others are.
 
Yeach,prominent links is really a valuable tool in SEO and it will bring us money indirectly
 
Though I'm sure that most of you have seen Harlan Ellison's rant on "pay the writer" but as it may fit here .... ;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mj5IV23g-fE
--
cheers, Peter
Germany
Peter: thanks. A truly perfect rant on the topic of not being paid for one's efforts. I'm going to send it to all my writer and producer friends ... although I suspect many of them have seen it already. I wasn't aware it existed. Thanks again.

--
SteveG
'When love and skill work together, expect a masterpiece.'
— Found in a Chinese Fortune Cookie
http://www.stephenmichaelgarey.com
 
If you're a published author with a revenue stream, then you don't need additional links.

But, if you're a creative type who just hasn't had that lucky break, this could be your only venue for exposure. Remember that sites like dpr, ll, fredmiranda, have been around for a long time, and are respected as authorities on their subjects. As much rubbish as gets published these days, having their stamp of approval means a lot.

In the end, the market will decide this. If dpr doesn't get the quality they want, they'll start paying. But, my guess is, they'll get their quality, and some gifted people will get the exposure they want. If someone comes up with enough thought provoking (read: traffic generating) articles, the money will start flowing.

Maybe I should submit something, and give Ken Rockwell some competition in the 'clown prince' department...
 
.... In the end, the market will decide this. If dpr doesn't get the quality they want, they'll start paying. But, my guess is, they'll get their quality, and some gifted people will get the exposure they want. If someone comes up with enough thought provoking (read: traffic generating) articles, the money will start flowing....
We shall see. In the meantime, there's a thought-provoking if not intense article on all this in the latest issue of Harper's. I just read it. The writer is none-too-happy about the state of things for writers as far as the Internet goes.

--
SteveG
'When love and skill work together, expect a masterpiece.'
— Found in a Chinese Fortune Cookie
http://www.stephenmichaelgarey.com
 
.... In the end, the market will decide this. If dpr doesn't get the quality they want, they'll start paying. But, my guess is, they'll get their quality, and some gifted people will get the exposure they want. If someone comes up with enough thought provoking (read: traffic generating) articles, the money will start flowing....
We shall see. In the meantime, there's a thought-provoking if not intense article on all this in the latest issue of Harper's. I just read it. The writer is none-too-happy about the state of things for writers as far as the Internet goes.

--
He's not the only one. I had planned a retirement around turning out a book every couple of years, plus a couple of magazine articles a month.

Ain't gonna happen. I can sell the books, I think, but forget the magazine articles. Five of the magazines I used to write for went belly-up about two months ago. I expect others to follow. Of course, I can always jump on-line and sell 300 or 400 or 500 words for 20 bucks or less.

--
Charlie Self



http://www.charlieselfonline.com
 
I was sorry to read your post accusing me of inability to know what a proof would be, or rather inability to differentiate between anecdotal, and not.

By doing so you assume that I don't know better, and furthermore you cannot help but go borderline insult, which is too bad.

Maybe I studied physics and therefore have some idea of what the scientific method is, and maybe I have worked in finance and business strategy for years which again trained my analytical abilities.

Like I said: I am happy if some freelance writers can live on it, great. And of course my sample of friends and friends of friends is biased, as is everyone else's. The FACT is however, that, on average, no writers ever make it to anywhere near the top 10 or possibly top 20 earners. And the anecdotal evidence is that although I do know a few writers, including some who actually did publish fairly successful books and were interviewed on TV, none of them makes more than a basic living from their trade. The only exception to this rule is a local comics author who has sold tens of millions of albums worlwide and he, of course, has been able to buy a local castle and has a grand life. Mind you I wouldn't call what he does "writing".

So in summary, firstly I am very happy if some people can live from their writing, just as I am happy if some people can live from their music (which is just as rare). But on average, these are not jobs where one should expect to make any solid amount of money. And that's fine by me, because money is far from everything in life.
 
I was sorry to read your post accusing me of inability to know what a proof would be, or rather inability to differentiate between anecdotal, and not.

By doing so you assume that I don't know better, and furthermore you cannot help but go borderline insult, which is too bad.

Maybe I studied physics and therefore have some idea of what the scientific method is, and maybe I have worked in finance and business strategy for years which again trained my analytical abilities.

Like I said: I am happy if some freelance writers can live on it, great. And of course my sample of friends and friends of friends is biased, as is everyone else's. The FACT is however, that, on average, no writers ever make it to anywhere near the top 10 or possibly top 20 earners. And the anecdotal evidence is that although I do know a few writers, including some who actually did publish fairly successful books and were interviewed on TV, none of them makes more than a basic living from their trade. The only exception to this rule is a local comics author who has sold tens of millions of albums worlwide and he, of course, has been able to buy a local castle and has a grand life. Mind you I wouldn't call what he does "writing".

So in summary, firstly I am very happy if some people can live from their writing, just as I am happy if some people can live from their music (which is just as rare). But on average, these are not jobs where one should expect to make any solid amount of money. And that's fine by me, because money is far from everything in life.
You persist in using specifics to explain generalities. I don't care how much physics you know, nor where you work. You are not using a scientific method to determine your answer, so whether or not you know it is totally irrelevant.

If you thought I was insulting you, you're wrong. I made a statement about your methods, which are nonsense. Your above explanation doesn't make them anything else.

I think you need to get out into the wider world of writers before you make such a statement. You might be surprised, as you might be surprised how well some lower level musical acts do, from the guy or gal playing at a piano bar to a person or group singing songs at various events.

--
Charlie Self



http://www.charlieselfonline.com
 
terms such as "nonsense", "I don't care", and the like.

too bad really.

show me the money, ie show me those writers or musicians who have made it materially. Show me the big houses in good neighborhoods, the import cars, the expensive holidays. Evidence is sorely lacking. And I notice that you don't even comment on my comment on these writers or musicians by far not making it to the top earners' tables.

which again, doesn't cause me any problems - there are many other ways to measure success, than just money. Many other ways.

Here's is to hoping that in the future you will be able to debate without insulting others, or calling their writing "nonsense" (and apparently assuming that using this kind of "evidence" is sufficient to make your own case very solid).
 
.... In the end, the market will decide this. If dpr doesn't get the quality they want, they'll start paying. But, my guess is, they'll get their quality, and some gifted people will get the exposure they want. If someone comes up with enough thought provoking (read: traffic generating) articles, the money will start flowing....
We shall see. In the meantime, there's a thought-provoking if not intense article on all this in the latest issue of Harper's. I just read it. The writer is none-too-happy about the state of things for writers as far as the Internet goes.

--
He's not the only one. I had planned a retirement around turning out a book every couple of years, plus a couple of magazine articles a month.

Ain't gonna happen. I can sell the books, I think, but forget the magazine articles. Five of the magazines I used to write for went belly-up about two months ago. I expect others to follow. Of course, I can always jump on-line and sell 300 or 400 or 500 words for 20 bucks or less.

--
Charlie Self
Charlie: believe it or not, the going rate (average) for 300 — 400 word pieces on the Web is $15.00. Web editors apparently get $20 or so for each article they work on, which is good incentive for the editors to have their writers keep things short so they (the editors) can plow through tons of pieces each day.

The flip side of all this is that more people are writing than ever before. And the flip side of THAT is that more junk is being cranked out than ever before, most of it unsupported opinion and ... when it comes to camera gear ... a repeat of what others have said about the same gear. Look at the rave reviews all across the board about the Canon 5D II. But that camera has obvious problems, as so many 5D II users well know.

By and large, there's very little courage and controversy in today's Web writing, including (and perhaps particularly) Web journalism.

--
SteveG
http://www.stephenmichaelgarey.com
 
terms such as "nonsense", "I don't care", and the like.

too bad really.

show me the money, ie show me those writers or musicians who have made it materially. Show me the big houses in good neighborhoods, the import cars, the expensive holidays. Evidence is sorely lacking. And I notice that you don't even comment on my comment on these writers or musicians by far not making it to the top earners' tables.

which again, doesn't cause me any problems - there are many other ways to measure success, than just money. Many other ways.

Here's is to hoping that in the future you will be able to debate without insulting others, or calling their writing "nonsense" (and apparently assuming that using this kind of "evidence" is sufficient to make your own case very solid).
Sorry. Your inability to either express yourself, or to accept a criticism is your problem, not mine.

I made no promise to show you wealthy writers' homes, nor did I state that a host of writers get rich. I said many of us make decent livings. You try twisting that into wealthy, and tell me I should prove a statement I didn't make is an example of your reasoning skills. Show me where I promised that writers have big houses, imported cars or any of that. Come to think of it, though, imported cars are not exactly a major luxury item, and haven't been since the original VW was introduced in the U.S. back in 1949, if my memory is accurate. I also don't have much idea what other people do for vacations.

I could probably supply names of a writer or two in many areas of the U.S. who live reasonably well. I see no reason to do so without asking their permission, and I see no reason to ask for that permission.

Maybe, since you're so hot about the subject, you can get in touch with people like Bernard Cornwell, John Grisham, Daniel Silva, Elizabeth Peters, T. Jefferson Parker, Randy White, Andrew Greeley, Lee Childs, Jeffrey Deaver, Nelson DeMille, Clive Cussler, W.E.B.Griffin, Harlen Coban, Jonathon Kellerman and hundreds, probably thousands, of others who are not doing quite as well as those in the fiction field. I'm not going to dig around in names of non-fiction writers, but the list are as long as that for fiction writers.

In other words, look it up yourself.

--
Charlie Self



http://www.charlieselfonline.com
 
.... In the end, the market will decide this. If dpr doesn't get the quality they want, they'll start paying. But, my guess is, they'll get their quality, and some gifted people will get the exposure they want. If someone comes up with enough thought provoking (read: traffic generating) articles, the money will start flowing....
We shall see. In the meantime, there's a thought-provoking if not intense article on all this in the latest issue of Harper's. I just read it. The writer is none-too-happy about the state of things for writers as far as the Internet goes.

--
He's not the only one. I had planned a retirement around turning out a book every couple of years, plus a couple of magazine articles a month.

Ain't gonna happen. I can sell the books, I think, but forget the magazine articles. Five of the magazines I used to write for went belly-up about two months ago. I expect others to follow. Of course, I can always jump on-line and sell 300 or 400 or 500 words for 20 bucks or less.

--
Charlie Self
Charlie: believe it or not, the going rate (average) for 300 — 400 word pieces on the Web is $15.00. Web editors apparently get $20 or so for each article they work on, which is good incentive for the editors to have their writers keep things short so they (the editors) can plow through tons of pieces each day.

The flip side of all this is that more people are writing than ever before. And the flip side of THAT is that more junk is being cranked out than ever before, most of it unsupported opinion and ... when it comes to camera gear ... a repeat of what others have said about the same gear. Look at the rave reviews all across the board about the Canon 5D II. But that camera has obvious problems, as so many 5D II users well know.

By and large, there's very little courage and controversy in today's Web writing, including (and perhaps particularly) Web journalism.
I'm beginning to think that the writers I know who set up their sites, drew audiences and bailed out four or five years ago were the smart ones. I know one couple, who had always done well as do-it-yourself writers, sold out about that long ago, kicked back and now are on a long-term vacation with no financial worries. Not bad. I wish I'd followed them, but the Web holds little allure for me as a "content provider", and it's probably too late now. All the good seats are taken.

I'll just have to bumble along doing a book a year (I hope: today's economy isn't making that easy) and a few magazine articles. The problem with the latter category is that a host of the magazines I write for have struck their tents over the past decade.

At my current age, I figure I've got the subjects and energy to do from five to ten more books in my fields--I'm a do-it-yourself writer and photographer, which means no fancy philosophy, just factual instructions with enough drawings and photos to make understanding the text easy.

If worse comes to worst, I'll pull together a simpler book proposal, get my wife's editing and proofreading skills in play, finish the book, and do a POD that I can also sell on my web site or blog. I don't want to, because I have yet to see a well done POD book, as compared to those done by traditional trade publishers. I like having an editor to improve my text, and a graphics person to lay the book out in the most useful and accessible manner. I can do both of those things, but I find I'm not as good as the guys and gals who have been trained for that work.

Charlie Self
http://www.charlieselfonline.com
 
Well, there is a great wealth of information here, that otherwise would have to be paid for. Take Joseph Wisniewski's posts for example.
Even if the informations Joseph share are incredible, and even if he writes in a nice manner, that posts (like all others from Eric Fossum or John Sheehy) can't be considered "professional writing", they are just post. That means short writings about a topic, not articles that go deep into a subject.
That's true in many things, but often Joseph's writing on technical aspects go a ways beyond what I can understand anyway. Some of his simpler posts have provided help for me, and, I'm sure, for others.

Writing for free when someone is using that writing as a part of a structure to make money is not a whole lot of fun. What takes these forums out of that category, for me, is the shared interests of the readers and writers. In fact, payment might be counted as coming from the wide range of answers that most queries will draw.

I chose where I write for no money...not really "for free". If I were just beginning as a writer, I'd probably do what I have for years recommended starting writers not do: write for exposure. The writing world has changed.

But writing for exposure only makes sense in the context of a site with the kind of audience DPR has, or something close to it. I still wouldn't recommend a beginning writer/photographer, photojournalist, whatever, fall for the "We won't pay you now, but when we're successful, you'll get a lot of money!" First, if the site isn't already successful, then any promise of later money is pie in the sky. Second, the exposure gained from being shown on such a site is not likely to be much, and may be worse than none at all. Why do I write that? Well, from what I've read, about 85% of people running blogs or web sites on their own are at best half-literate. Most assuredly, I don't want someone like that messing with my copy or touching up my photos!

For anyone who anticipates writing or shooting for no payment, start by learning if the site is popular enough, and well enough done, to make the work at least possibly worthwhile.

--
Charlie Self



http://www.charlieselfonline.com
 
How many times I've thought... I wish I had gotten in on that earlier... but there's always something new. For example, the explosion in micro ILS cameras means it's a good time to set up a site that caters to them, if you have something worthwhile to share. I'm not into cameras to that level of detail, but for someone who is, it could be an opportunity.

Web traffic means ad revenue, and that's fairly simple to set up these days with things like adsense. So if you have something interesting to say, get it out there. The revenue stream for writing is still there, it has just changed form. If you want to make any money at all, you probably have to run the site as well. Just as the word processor eliminated the secretary, the electronic age lets you do more, but also requires you to do more. Ponder that one for a moment.

Journalism is gone. The two most popular 'news' sources, and I use that term very loosely, share one thing in common: they have a deliberate political bias. There's money in telling people what they want to hear. And some major news sources aren't politically biased, they're commercially biased. They'll blow trivial events into crises just to keep viewers planted in front of the tube.

Funny thing is, television viewership is dropping off. I got rid of broadcast and cable twelve years ago, and it's gone downhill since then. The news has become alarmist, the entertainment mean spirited.

Maybe there's a market for personal responsibility, practical views, and solid values.
 
I think it's safe to say we want your contribution about as much as you want to give it
SJ

This thread has been very interesting since no one yet has mentioned having to eat, provide shelter, etc. It appears that staving artists and writers got that way by volunteering to get exposure that was not very convertible to cash.
--
Bob

'I can look at a fine art photograph and sometimes I can hear music.' - Ansel Adams

 
I think it's safe to say we want your contribution about as much as you want to give it
SJ

This thread has been very interesting since no one yet has mentioned having to eat, provide shelter, etc. It appears that staving artists and writers got that way by volunteering to get exposure that was not very convertible to cash.
--
I do not think starving artists and writers are DPReview targets.

And, what I had mentioned elsewhere, whenever there is a comissioned article, there is no neutrality. Bias galore. Human nature.
Rgds
 

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